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MyTwoCents

Background checks, background checks, background checks, please!

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So off the tangent of object preference and back to the real topic of what to do about unsafe inexperienced new jumpers.

Can anybody think of other serious solutions besides the following?

1. Ignore them, and hope the problem will work itself out.
2. Take up the role of mentor to educate in order to minimize damage
3. Keep communication open, but only give life saving information

Or, does everybody think this isn't really a problem that needs addressing? My frustration is that I don't like any of the options I’ve listed, but can't come up with any others that are feasible.
BASE #958

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That's a worthwhile topic and I'll gladly start another thread for discussion. I tend to agree with Greeny. He's a smart resourceful guy and had some rough beginnings in BASE, but he is definately not a beginner anymore. I don't think people should be protected from themselves. If I want to sit home and snort my brains to mush why should the government have any say in that. If I want to jump off a cliff in the middle of nowhere why does the government feel the need to restrict me from that. It's a bunch of BS if you ask me.

I understand that anything can be portrayed as affecting others in some distant way, but in a reasonable world someone sitting around their house doing illegal drugs generally only affects them and their lifestyle. Same goes for jumping off stuff.

Tony

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Pardon my candor, but how about:

4. You put aside the automatic ingrained assumption (you do know the old saying about what happens when you assume right, cause its applicable here) that new guys are the enemy, reckless, and have no clue. You instead check them out with a mind open to the remotest, minutest possibility that they just might not be reckless, and just might have a good idea of what they're doing, AND might not be on a personal object-burning Jihad against you. In short, verify that this serious problem exists first, instead of assuming it. Then, if there is a problem you can always tell them this:

“Ready are you? What know you of ready? For eight hundred years have I trained Jedi. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh. Excitement. Heh. A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless.” -Yoda
"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

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Pardon my candor, but how about: 4. You put aside the automatic ingrained assumption (you do know the old saying about what happens when you assume right, cause its applicable here) that new guys are the enemy, reckless, and have no clue.



I have seen Seth being incredibly helpful towards beginners and I've seen him avoid them. He doesn't generalize and, in my experience, judges on individual performance.

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all you guys:

even the most prominent gear manufacturers dont ask much in the way of questions these days.

newbies, and experienced jumpers take great risk in choosing to go base jumping.

people will get hurt, people wil make dumb mistakes.

dont worry about it so much, just help out when you can.

i sold my base rig to a guy recently. I did not ask any questions, but I did give him a new helmet.

jt

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even the most prominent gear manufacturers dont ask much in the way of questions these days.



I don't think that's accurate. What are you basing your statement on?

I know that I've had every major US manufacturer contact me at various times asking for references on potential customers they were selling gear to.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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So off the tangent of object preference and back to the real topic of what to do about unsafe inexperienced new jumpers.



Whew… Thank you for getting us back on topic… SARCASISM, in case you can’t tell…

P.S. It’s “Jumping Preference” and not “Object preference”… And it’s not a tangent, it’s a correlation between your bitching and what is really going on.

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My frustration is that I don't like any of the options I’ve listed, but can't come up with any others that are feasible.



Sounds about right... You have a problem with the new jumpers but you don't want to do anything about it but bitch… So if that’s the case, go with your option #1 and mind your own business.


Michael

BATMAN - (A.K.A. SBCmac ...)


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know that I've had every major US manufacturer contact me at various times asking for references on potential customers they were selling gear to.



It would be helpful if the manufacturers posted something on their sites to this effect -- "warning, BASE is hazardous, we will ask for proof of competence or training.." etc, and links to a canonical "what is required to get into BASE" document. Or would this be seen as making it too easy and increasing the sport's visibility?
Looking for newbie rig, all components...

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Since you can't just pop a rig in an e-shopping cart and check out, there's no real need to do that. The manufacturer can easily have a real conversation (rather than just posting a disclaimer document) with anyone who calls them inquiring about gear. I have yet to encounter a manufacturer who doesn't do this--they all ask you some questions when you order gear. They also make you sign a written waiver, which pretty clearly describes the risks, before they'll sell you gear.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Perhaps it's redundant info, but:

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Warning

BASE-jumping is extremely dangerous! You may be seriously injured or killed. Morpheus Technologies and all of it's affiliates advise you to seriously consider the potential consequences of your actions should you decide to pursue this sport. Do not use this equipment unless you accept full responsibility for any injury, serious or otherwise, including loss of life. Do not use this equipment unless you have read and understand all warning labels, owner's manuals and packing instructions. Do not use this equipment unless you have had complete and controlled instruction in the use of this parachute assembly. Do not use this equipment without inspecting it and all of it's components thoroughly before each and every use. Morpheus Technologies and it's affiliates offers no warranty; expressed or implied, as to the reliability or safety of any equipment or product that it sells. This equipment is sold without any guarantee of it's quality or performance. It may not perform as it is designed to. By clicking "Accept", you are releasing Morpheus Technologies and all of it's affiliates of any responsibility or liability for injury, serious or otherwise, including loss of life.

JUMP AT YOUR OWN RISK!

I accept the above statement as true and wish to continue with my order.
Accept--------------Decline


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Uhhhhhhhh......

Hey people, by selling someone a rig your only giving them a piece of the puzzle. Unless they are going to do rollovers or tards that newbie is going to have to have someone pack it for them. I bought a rig a couple of years ago when I had no experience or clue on how to pack, did I just throw it in the container and huck it! No, you idiots, I wasnt trying to die, I was trying to live, and I received mentoring from people that where willing to pack and mentor me. If people want to kill themselves they wouldnt waste their money on a rig. Think about it, there are to many rules, and your not their mommy or daddy. Quite worrying about other people, and worry about yourself! Whiners!

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Uhhhhhhhh......

Quite worrying about other people, and worry about yourself! Whiners!



as you seem to be whinng yourself, is that an attempt at humor?

it's a shame, as the end of your post detracts from a valid point.
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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I bought a rig a couple of years ago when I had no experience or clue on how to pack...



I wonder if you also had no experience or clue how to jump? Why would it be easier to jump than to pack? I can easily picture someone who thinks that packing is just a matter of folding the damned thing into the container and jumping is just a matter of pulling on that string thingy to deploy the canopy. (How hard could it be?)

[This raises a good question -- just how rare is it for people to actually go do a FJC, as opposed to trying to wing it? Sounds like a good recipe for breaking a wing, to me...]

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Think about it, there are to many rules... Quite worrying about other people, and worry about yourself! Whiners!



You obviously haven't read the thread. Go ahead and die if you like, but people don't want you to ruin it for the rest of them.
Looking for newbie rig, all components...

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Uhhhhhhhh......

Hey people, by selling someone a rig your only giving them a piece of the puzzle. Unless they are going to do rollovers or tards that newbie is going to have to have someone pack it for them. I bought a rig a couple of years ago when I had no experience or clue on how to pack, did I just throw it in the container and huck it! No, you idiots, I wasnt trying to die, I was trying to live, and I received mentoring from people that where willing to pack and mentor me. If people want to kill themselves they wouldnt waste their money on a rig. Think about it, there are to many rules, and your not their mommy or daddy. Quite worrying about other people, and worry about yourself! Whiners!



that is one of the most stereotype skydiver wannabe cool-guy posts i have ever read.

edited to add... not like i should be talking. i post to much.

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Uhhhhhhhh......

Hey people, by selling someone a rig your only giving them a piece of the puzzle. Unless they are going to do rollovers or tards that newbie is going to have to have someone pack it for them. I bought a rig a couple of years ago when I had no experience or clue on how to pack, did I just throw it in the container and huck it! No, you idiots, I wasnt trying to die, I was trying to live, and I received mentoring from people that where willing to pack and mentor me. If people want to kill themselves they wouldnt waste their money on a rig. Think about it, there are to many rules, and your not their mommy or daddy. Quite worrying about other people, and worry about yourself! Whiners!



From personal experience it is perfectly possible to buy a rig and a packing video and learn to pack.

5 practice pack jobs was all it took me to get mine to where I was happy to jump it.

Trust me no one learning to BASE jump wants to kill themselves. Just because we did it different from you doesn't make us suicidal it just means we assessed the risks and made our choice.

Comming back to where this thread started:

I still think we need to sell the new guys the best availible gear.

1) They need to have it before they attend their FJC, it is much better to do the FJC on the gear they will keep jumping.

2) They need to learn to pack it. This is hard to do with no gear.

3) They need the best availible gear when they are starting out, this is the most dangeous time in our sport and they need everything on their side.

4) If they do decide to go it alone then at least let them do it on BASE specific gear.
(not a good choice but their choice non the less)

We as more experianced jumpers then need to give them all the help and guidance we can. I am not saying you need to mentor every wana be that come your way, just that even a a phone conversation can be a big help to someone who knows so little, they don't even know they don't know.

Greeny

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...They need to learn to pack it. This is hard to do with no gear.



When students in my FJC's rent gear (i.e. they don't yet have their own), I ship them a rig in advance so that they can practice packing.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I wouldn't. Mostly because of the 'local mentor' factor (50 jumps isn't enough to be teaching others to jump in my opinion).
But I would think the 50 jump wonder instructor should be a concern no mater where you are.

Interesting how the world changes, I happened to teach this person how to B.A.S.E. When i had around 45 jumps myself.
Just due to the fact someone only has 40-50 jumps doesnt mean they are not qualified to teach.
Maybe they were an excellent learner and/or maybe they have a few thousand skydives (which might help the learning curve).
When base jumping was started wasnt it taught from people that had only a couple of jumps? Did they not try and teach each other all they would come to know?
Is was a free tree of knowledge from one and another. Somewhere of the last while it has changed into a tight group of Better than Thous.
Please for the sake of lives and for the sport start changing it back. Do not treat people like this:***1. Ignore them, and hope the problem will work itself out.

This is what makes people lie to get into the sport.

***2. Take up the role of mentor to educate in order to minimize damage

I like and agree with this one. Teach all you can and if you cant or are unable to take them far enough, point them in a direction to someone who can. FJC isnt a must have though it is an option. People are not worse jumpers or below those who have taken a FJC. People wont make good jumpers unless they dont get any and all good information.

***3. Keep communication open, but only give life saving information

[reply to quote 3]Just "life saving information" still might kill someone. What little thing you think has no bearng on saving someones life might be the info that would stop them from getting hurt. (some peoples common sense differs from yours and what you see as a no brainer might in turn be different for them) Be an open book dont hold back because if you are not, they WILL find information else where and it might be just the kind of INFO that kills them because they didnt get the right stuff from you and your tight nit friends.
By giving them any and all knowledge that you can, they WIL BE SAFER for it if they decide to go through with it.
In the end it isnt up to you to tell someone they can not jump ...... it is up to them. If they want to they will if they dont they wont, It is that simple.
If they do jump at least we can make it a little bit safer for them, by giving uncapped information. Now if you dont like the person that is wanting information.... well that is a whole nother thread>:( So if you get anything from my little rant here, "DONT BE COCKY ALL SUPREME HIGHER THAN THOUS". Remember you were once at the bottom too!
*** If they don't have BASE experience, you need at least two of the following three things:
1. A confirmation from an FJC provider that shows they have signed up for a course in the near future.
2. A confirmation from a local mentor who is willing to teach them and has sufficient experience to be a mentor (which you check through their own background check).
3. A quick phone call to the buyer's dropzone to ask what kind of person they are, and what kind of skydiving they've been doing for the past hundred jumps.

[reply to the above BS questions to ask a buyer]
What are you their MOMMY!!!!!!
Cough... Cough ...what a bunch of BS
A note about background checks: I sold two my rigs with out any background checks. Though I did ask how old they were and when i was told their ages i figured they could decide what to do for themselves.. and i charged them for helmets:)

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if you take offense to that, I'm sorry, thats your own deal. I don't consider you 'the person' who taught me to base, if I had to name one person who I felt taught me the most it would be Scotty or Powell. No offense intended, because I learned alot from you, but thats how I feel. I have the experience now to tell the difference between the good and bad parts of how I got into base.

Like I mentioned to you this morning when you said you felt I was acting like a 'base governing body', I dont' want to be an authority and I don't proclaim to be an authority, but I disagree with being as carefree and open with information as some people choose to be in this sport.

Its not wrong of me to withhold information when I feel its the wiser choise, I'm not imposing my views on anybody, they can always go elsewhere. Its not wrong to have differing oppinions, its wrong to impose them on other people.
BASE #958

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I didnt even teach you how to jump! What a crock of S***. (those four letters can be taken two ways:) Who took the time and taught you intitially how to pack and who took you on your first 10 or so jumps? Answer me that Yoda! Wait let me answer that for you .... ME :ph34r::P:)Hmmmnnnn... Maybe that doesnt count as teaching someone how to jump in some peoples world.


I am not claiming all your knowledge of B.A.S.E came from me but i DID intitially teach you how to go about it. Who also helped out after the start of your jaunt into this sport, well you all ready named them! That is what everyone should do... constanly gain knowledge and add it to your pool. Now if everyone keeps acting better than the new jumpers, everyones knowledge pool will be quite empty!


Now with that said any smart person would always take on as much advise and knowledge as possible. It is all about evolving and if you learned everything you know just from one person well then you are limiting yourself, for no one knows everything.... especially about BASE. I myself dont claim i know all there is to know my REAL POINT was DON'T go all Higher than Thou. You need to remeber how YOU were taught, how hard it was to get "IN" and to not belittle people for doing it in a similar way to in which you were shown. If someone did background checks on most of us at the start, almost no one would be jumping due to the fact we wouldnt have gear to jump with! Cause we were all little know nothing wannabe's at that point.

By the way one last note...............
Don't let close mindedness kill...why not be open about information, if you hold back they only people your gonna hurt is others!

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I suggest that you guys take your personal differences off line.

They aren't really on topic for this subject, and it's silly to bring this kind of disagreement out in public for the world to watch, anyway.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Maybe you should get out of your chair and move a little closer to the screen so you can see what i wrote! A bit was personal and alot was right smack on topic. Though i took out a few more personal sentences due to the fact you apparently didnt see a point at all. I had to put the personal stuff out there to prove my points.

People learn how to base then become better than the newbies and are to good to share info. BULS***

How one person learned isnt a valid or an acceptable way of being taught for other people because they are not you. BULS***

We need to do background checks before selling gear. BULS***
You arent their daddy...
Would any of you have passed a background check when you started? Most of us learned from friends with low jumps and some learned from FJC's. I think the friendly teaching is still alot higher though than people in FJC's
Who is anyone to tell anybody they arent worthy of gear. If you dont want to sell them yours then dont. But to tell everyone they should do background checks before they sell .... cough cough ... hello Mr. or Mrs. All HIGH and Mighty

Hey maybe ....instead.... sell them your gear and point them in a good direction .....down!(sarcasm)

nah just tell them good luck and i am sure they will find their way unless they run into people like some of you who wont give them any information or advice because they are not good enough for some of you.
:)

High was all caps on purpose cause you must be HIGH if you think like that!

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nah just tell them good luck and i am sure they will find their way



it must be very relaxing being so callous towards other people's health and safety...

personally, if someone used my gear (borrowed or bought) incorrectly and got hurt, I'd feel guilty. I want a clear conscience. blindly selling it to anyone won't work for me.

so, does that mean I have a "holier than thou" attitude?

and some people feel lucky to have survived how they entered the sport. it makes sense to discourage people from the same path. what if they are not as lucky?

I want to sleep at night, not bothered by second guessing.
heck, we research objects before accepting the risk of jumping, why not research potential buyers before accepting some responsibility for their well being?

do you also just HOPE things work out for your jump buddies, or do you make an effort to help?

why encourage people to make zero effort in BASE? it is a bad habit to form.
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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it must be very relaxing being so callous towards other people's health and safety...

why encourage people to make zero effort in BASE? it is a bad habit to form.



Hey are you and Tom reading buddies cause you missed alot.
I dont encourage to be misinformed or not to put forth an their best efort. When you got into this sport did you not think twice about what you were doing? maybe even three times? I expect the same out of new people... they will be scared shitless and they will want to learn. All they need is help from all of you!
Anyhow.....
They last little bit of my last statement was me being a smartass but if you look at the remainder of my little rant you would see i am all for people helping others and sharing knowledge. That though brings up the problem i was also writing about people not sharing info due to people not being good enough for their standards. Hey if you help and inform people more power to you that is all i hope for. If your an ass and ignore the newbies welll bite one! In selling your gear fine ask them a few questions but you dont need to do a background check. They dont want to die either so they will try to find the right way to do it .

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why not research potential buyers before accepting some responsibility for their well being?

Answer: I dont accept responsibility for anyone if they buy my gear or not. Again i am not your daddy or thiers.( I dont think so anyhow:) Now that isnt to say i wont give them advice on my opinions do's and dont's but in the end they choose which way they want to go.

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