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MyTwoCents

Background checks, background checks, background checks, please!

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Sorry for not asking your permision to start jumping.

Sorry for not comming and ground crewing, driving, buying the beer for a year before you finaly said I could jump

Yer right!............

I think BASE was that way because before the days of internet and small helmet cams information was hard to come by so few felt they could step off the edge alone.

Now almost every jumper has a web site on witch to post his / her videos

We all have the descovery channel.

The numbers of new jumpers is just proof that all your advertising works

You sold the world MTV, every one believes come to America and they can live just like that. Now you have an imigration problem.

Quote [Because people kept it underground]

If you want it underground:

Stop playing the videos on every DZ
Stop Making TV programs
Close the Websites
Close the forums
Don't jump your legal little cliff in day light

but is that realy what you want??

Greeny

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I didn't say anything about buying me beer. (I like Bridgeport IPA if your out shopping)

I haven't been a part of any production video.

I don't play videos at dropzones.

I don't have a 'look at me' website.

I don't think the forums are a problem, but I do think that the amount of information available on them is.

I do jump a cliff in my local area in daylight, and I don't want that to stop, but I don't feel that is something I should have to give up, just because people like you lied to get into the sport.

And you don't sound sorry for getting into the sport without 'permission' as you put it, but perhaps you should be sorry for getting into it irresponsibly. Eventually, you most likely will.

Oooh, on the note of 'permission': This is a self-regulating sport, not an unregulated sport. This means that participating members regulate each other, as well as new jumpers. This only works if we take criticism and advice to heart. This self-regulating element of the sport goes hand-in-hand with the 'tight-knit' thing we were discussing back on page 1. If I had to speculate, I would say that your local jumpers didn't think you were ready as far as skillset to jump, or that you didn't take constructive criticism well, or both. How close am I?
BASE #958

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Good points, and as we found from the youtube thread, there's way too many jumpers that cant resist advertising constantly.
"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

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I squeaked into the sport without enough skydives, too. But I don't put my videos on YouTube and I have a several times more jumps than posts.

But I really posted to say:

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I like Bridgeport IPA if your out shopping



Good choice. Try Firestation 5 Steampumper IPA, too. I get the Bridgeport or Firestation depending on what is on special at the store. ;)

It's time now! My time now! Give me mine. Give me my wings! - MJK

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cut cut...
Oooh, on the note of 'permission': This is a self-regulating sport, not an unregulated sport. This means that participating members regulate each other, as well as new jumpers. This only works if we take criticism and advice to heart. This self-regulating element of the sport goes hand-in-hand with the 'tight-knit' thing we were discussing back on page 1. If I had to speculate, I would say that your local jumpers didn't think you were ready as far as skillset to jump, or that you didn't take constructive criticism well, or both. How close am I?



This brings to mention about that guy who was "tarr and feathered"
Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

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Tom A… Can you please change my vote on the last poll, Poll: Have the BASE forums gone to shit? , to YES?

MyTwoCents and SethGray… Stop trying to turn BASE into the USPA. And most importantly, stop trying to protect people from themselves. I mean, did I miss it? Where you two voted to be the BASE governing body? I know I definitely didn’t vote for you!

You know what, better yet… I like this governing body thing… I vote myself as the sole BASE gear inspector. I want to see your gear weekly, to protect you from yourself. I’m worried that you two are not inspecting your gear to my standards.

And since were at it, I’m designating my self as the BASE safety officer. Please call me before all your jumps. I want to make sure you have evaluated each object correctly before you jump. I'm worried that you are not taking everything into account in accordance to my standards.

You know what… I totally see the light now… I think it’s very important that you guys contact me often. I just want to make sure that you are jumping according to how I see fit.

Granted… I do pretty thorough background checks, so sadly, I might not let you jump at all…

P.S. SethGray, Greeny is ENTITLED to be a jumper… And he damn well doesn’t have to explain it to you!!!

BATMAN - (A.K.A. SBCmac ...)


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MyTwoCents … Stop trying to turn BASE into the USPA.



Wow. If you knew me, you'd realize that is as far from the truth as could possibly be. I loathe the USPA and the fact it has to exist. I actually don't have a single skydiving license. Maybe that's not a great thing, but in the context of your point it shows that I'm not a fan of governing bodies.

In fact, my post is precisely because I want to avoid being regulated. Hence we must try to regulate ourselves. Fine-tuning our approaches through discussions like the one we are having right now.

When actions of individuals affect others (and no matter what you say, a jumper dying affects people) and communities can't self-regulate, the police (in its abstract form) will step in and form a government.

Ironically I got a PM from somebody else arguing that the German BASE organization has worked so well to avoid situations like these.

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And most importantly, stop trying to protect people from themselves.



Again, if you knew me you wouldn't think I was trying that. In fact, if you read my original post you'd have seen that I specifically didn't care about people killing themselves.

I care about my local objects. Not because I own them, but because I believe the community has a simple duty to preserve the opportunities we have.

I'm well aware this is a relative scale. What I think is dangerous, another person thinks is safe. What I think is safe, a third person will consider stupid. And I encourage discussions about these kind of things.

However, if you actually realized the situation we are in I think you'd agree on the problem we have. Feel free to PM me for my phone-number and we can discuss. Perhaps you have some advice and I'd appreciate that.

I should also point out that I've reached out to this person. I've encouraged skydiving a BASE canopy, offered to lend him my large skydiving container to fit his in, adviced to take an FJC, encouraged to go to Twin Falls before jumping solid objects at home, adviced to get better helmet and armor, asked if he tuned his brake-settings, etcetera, etcetera.

But when somebody finds a canopy on the market, one with a sub-optimal wingloading might I add, and ignores all my advice and starts hucking technical local objects, then I don't know what to do anymore.

When I talk to somebody on the phone who has four previous BASE jumps, and he tells me he's gonna solo a 280 foot urban crane, going hand held with a 38 inch pilot chute, you'd be scratching your head too.

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I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.

MyTwoCents (and company) is saying: You don't have a right to hurt other people's ability to participate in BASE jumping (by, for example, doing things that make government regulation or banning of jumping more likely).

Greeny (and company) is saying: I have a right to BASE jump.


These two statements are not in contradiction of each other.

We pretty much all do have a right to do what we want--provided we're not hurting others. We do not have a right to hurt other people without redress. Failing to consider the impact of your actions on others is inconsiderate, and, in a BASE sense, unethical.


One final thought: Carrots work better than sticks. You are never going to be able to stop someone from getting into BASE. You can usually convince them to, for example, attend a weeklong free training session.

Oh, and one really final thought (sorry): If you think that Greeny hasn't learned a lot from his missteps starting BASE, you're not paying attention. Have a look at his "Lessons Learned From an Unconventional Introduction to BASE" post.


Sorry to lecture. [/rant]
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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BASE is hopeless.



I suspect you're ironic in some sense, but the comment is indicative of something I just learned through talking with another BASE jumper twenty times more intelligent than me.

Why are these discussions, and so many others here, always so terribly polarized? Everything is always presented as an either-or thing.

I have one person arguing that regulation and governing is a good thing. I have another claiming that everybody should be free to do whatever they want. Why can't there be a sensible and constantly tuned equilibrium where we try to regulate our own community loosely but respect each other's freedoms?

I have one person suggesting that if you wear body armor you don't have brains. I have another one claiming that body armor can make up for lack of skills. Why can't you wear body armor and have skills at the same time?

I have one person suggesting that BASE needs to go completely underground and hide itself, and another person posting twenty videos on YouTube. Why can't we enjoy the occasional video and share the passion with non-jumpers, yet continue to discourage people from entering what is a dangerous activity?

I have one person saying that you can't enter BASE until you have at least 500 skydives, while another will deathcamp you with fifty skydives. Why can't we place emphasis on the individual and form an opinion within context, instead of generalizing?

I have one person saying that the internet has no place for BASE infomation, while another says the BASE wiki is great and that these forums are a good learning tool. Why can't we present useful information in a sensible way and monitor the impact on non-jumpers.

Things are rarely black and white, and the question of BASE and its place in the universe will never have a definite answer.

Self regulating doesn't have to be a bad thing. By and large the climbing community (through its access societies) is proving that it's possible. Yes it takes effort, but it is better than total anarchy, and certainly better than government regulation. All it takes is a little consideration, patience, and common sense.

That said, somebody with four previous BASE jumps planning to take a 38 inch pilotchute for a 280 foot go and throw from an urban crane forces me to recalibrate my black and white scale, hoping to find the matching grey that fits the best outcome for my local object, as well as the jumpers involved.

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First of all… Thank you for posting a clarification of your original post… Overall I know you mean well.

Anyway, the way I look at it is… BASE and the Ozone layer have a lot in common… No matter how much the rest of us preserve and protect them, there are enough people out there that will eventually cause the demise of both of them.

With that said, all we can do is continue to show the way to those who care enough to be shown. And second to that, we should continue to BASE the way it makes sense to us. Because in the end, BASE has/is going to change and we can’t do anything about it…

So HUCK your ass off until you can’t HUCK anymore B|...

BATMAN - (A.K.A. SBCmac ...)


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Why are these discussions, and so many others here, always so terribly polarized? Everything is always presented as an either-or thing.



answer:
see the post that started this thread. it was written in an antgonistic tone. the author latter modified it to be far more reasonable, but the damage was done.

opinion:
it is not enough to simply ask questions or tell people to ask questions. questions generate information, a tool. how will the information be used? guidance might prove helpful, or insulting.

should someone ask a buyer's intentions when buying a snowboard? bad things happen with those... especially when things look so easy on video.

people regularly demand rights while avoiding a corresponding responsibility. I do not know of an easy way to thrust responsible behavior upon someone else. I really wish I did. heck, I wish I could ensure I always acted wisely... I regret many rash acts...
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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Quote: [When I talk to somebody on the phone who has four previous BASE jumps, and he tells me he's gonna solo a 280 foot urban crane, going hand held with a 38 inch pilot chute, you'd be scratching your head too.]

Were you familiar with the object in question?
Were you familiar with his gear?

Did you suggest a different size PC?
Did you suggest a safer alternative?
Did you suggest he joined you at said safer site at a later date?
Did you offer for him to ground crew an experienced group jumping that site so he could see how it should be done?



A few years back a local skydiver was at the DZ showing video of his first base jump. He jumped solo off an Italian wall. He took a 4 sec delay on a skydive canopy, in a bag, using a bungee pilot chute. I didn’t take him on to raise, I didn’t do a full mentor job but he did do eight jumps on my gear off various objects. The aim was just to introduce him to a better way of doing things

Did you help the jumper in question at all or did you just flame him and leave him on his own?

Greeny
(edited for spelling)

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Were you familiar with the object in question?



Yes. Although I would argue that using 38 inch on a 280 foot go and throw the object doesn't really matter much. 38 is simply too small.

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Were you familiar with his gear?



Yes.

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Did you suggest a different size PC?



Of course, I said he'd be better of using a 46 or 48, and that he should consider maybe doing a static-line instead.

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Did you suggest a safer alternative?



Indeed I did.

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Did you suggest he joined you at said safer site at a later date?



Yep.

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Did you offer for him to ground crew an experienced group jumping that site so he could see how it should be done?



Yes.

I hope I don't sound like a prick, but I think that on average I've been quite helpful to fellow beginners. I started and maintain BASE WIKI to share information. I have offered a place to stay for many a visiting BASE jumper. I've PCAd more people of my local bridge than I have done jumps of it myself. I've helped people get their E. I've given people my body armor because they couldn't afford their own. I've lend people BASE canopies so they could skydive them. I've asked people to help me groundcrew.

I suppose sometimes things just don't work out. That's too bad and believe me I don't feel great about it either. I guess at some point you just have to let go, as you pointed out. I have no right to stop people from jumping. I completely agree with you on this.

However, I do have the privilege to come on these forums and ask my fellow jumpers to do due diligence when they sell used gear. Granted, I should have used a different tone. These are the kind of posts I should write, let sit overnight, and then post.

Or maybe I should just stop worrying about the things I have no control over. Like SBCMac said; huck it while you can strut it!

Thanks guys...

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...but I think that on average I've been quite helpful to fellow beginners. I started and maintain BASE WIKI to share information. I have offered a place to stay for many a visiting BASE jumper. I've PCAd more people of my local bridge than I have done jumps of it myself. I've helped people get their E. I've given people my body armor because they couldn't afford their own. I've lend people BASE canopies so they could skydive them. I've asked people to help me groundcrew.



I can vouch for this beyond the call of duty helpfulness. Not that he needs it.

I have stayed at His place, been PCA'ed by him off that local bridge, been helped in getting my 'E' by him, and been the recipient of said body armor. He has gone above and beyond. I only hope I can be as generous in my way.

Thanks again man, by the way I just bought a full face, and am going to order the following armor:

http://www.sixsixone.com/Catalog_661Bike.aspx?id=a9fc2642-7c61-44a1-9b87-c978ce9f925a&product=320c420e-9789-4296-a5d9-c9478f4b4880

http://www.sixsixone.com/Catalog_661Bike.aspx?id=cb6c4b16-bd4a-41c8-bcf6-ff2fadc22560&product=448446cd-97bf-4458-98e1-3023521b39f3


What do you think?

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I've been quite helpful to fellow beginners. I started and maintain BASE WIKI to share information. I have offered a place to stay for many a visiting BASE jumper. I've PCAd more people of my local bridge than I have done jumps of it myself. I've helped people get their E. I've given people my body armor because they couldn't afford their own. I've lend people BASE canopies so they could skydive them. I've asked people to help me groundcrew.



keep up the good work. this is how people should GIVE to the sport, not simply TAKE.

actions like that demonstrate claiming a right by acting responsible. too many people neglect the latter.
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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When I read posts about loathing the USPA I shake my head...

While a few of USPA's rules annoy me, I understand why
they are needed. The larger a group becomes the more
standardized the rules/laws need to be.

Since BASE jumping has less participants, is less commercial,
is more dangerous, requires more skill, and is typically illegal
it makes sense that it would be self/group regulated.
Rigger, Skydiver, BASE Jumper, Retired TM

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Selling a newbie a rig? I would do whatever my conscience told me to do after talking to this perspective customer.

I didn't have anyone to show me around in the beginning of my jumping. And I was pretty clueless but a prominent base manufacturer sold me a canopy many years ago. After getting the rig, I obtained packing videos, talked to experienced jumpers over the phone, read as much underground base literature as a I could. So all in all, I was a risk but I was diligent enough to pick up enough information to do it on my own.
Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

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While a few of USPA's rules annoy me, I understand why
they are needed. The larger a group becomes the more
standardized the rules/laws need to be.


Then I ask myself, what kinds of people do these rules/laws attract...
Rules and laws give a lot of people a false sense of security.

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SBCMac,

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Stop trying to turn BASE into the USPA

I'm not arguing for such a transformation. The topic and problem is what to do about the new jumpers getting into the sport in progressively more wreckless situations.

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stop trying to protect people from themselves

I am trying to protect some people from themselves, for a few reasons: If a jumper dies in our own city (in the case of you and I) it will increase the heat of our own objects, and support legislature to inhibit our ability to jump objects as freely as we do now. Specifically, I have problems with people getting into the sport who have been repeatedly informed by experienced jumpers that they are not ready. And with the 'passing the buck' attitude taken by many experienced jumpers when newbies call on them.

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Where you two voted to be the BASE governing body?

No, this is a discussion forum that I use to ask other jumpers opinions about things. My asking questions, and giving opinions doesn't make me a 'governing body', it shows that I'm concerned, and looking for answers.

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Please call me before all your jumps

funny thing, I tried calling you to make jumps for a few years with you, with no responses, so don't give me a hard time for your old decisions.

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I’m worried that you two are not inspecting your gear to my standards.

If you honestly have any issue with me, my gear, or my jumping habits, I'm more than happy to discuss your concerns anytime, give me a call.

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P.S. SethGray, Greeny is ENTITLED to be a jumper… And he damn well doesn’t have to explain it to you!!!

I asked a question, I didn't demand an answer. The point I was trying to make (or work toward) with the question is that none of us are legally entitled to even be on many of the objects we jump.

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I do pretty thorough background checks, so sadly, I might not let you jump at all…

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And most importantly, stop trying to protect people from themselves.

interesting contradiction. I extend the same offer here: if you have a problem with me, please give me a call, I'm happy to discuss it with you.

Mike, you disappeared for over two years, and in that time our city's (and arguably, a far more reaching area's) jumping population has taken a turn for the worse my opinion. This topic stirred me into posting on DZ, and this thread is the result of that concern. I'm not professing to be authority, I'm trying to decide what position I'm going to take on all of this. If you ask the two new jumpers who you have been in contact with, you'll find that I've been very candid with them in this regard.

-Seth
BASE #958

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Seth,

Of course there are contradictions in my post… I was being a smart ass.

And to clarify, I didn’t disappear from BASE, I disappeared from the group. A lot of the reasons had to do with that I like B’s more than E’s, and the group was critical of my preferences.

And that’s my key point… Unless someone is blatantly burning an object, it really comes down to jumping preferences. Because at the end of the day, a safely illegal base jump is just as illegal as an unsafe illegal BASE jump… Meaning, you and I both know that you have just as much chance of getting caught and causing legislation no matter how safe and careful you are on an illegal jump.

And my last key point is… You are not going to be able to stop a justifiably, not preference inferred, object burner. Unless you want to go to jail for kicking their ass, which I’m not sure is not good for the BASE cause. I can just see it know… “Your Honor, I kicked his ass because he’s making my illegal jumps more illegal…”

My overall point is… Let the rest of us enjoy BASE the way we want to and don’t tell us that we need to fix other people, especially when your basis is related to jumping preferences.

Michael

BATMAN - (A.K.A. SBCmac ...)


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You know what... We should create a running post that lists out complaints, without names of course. And for the hell of it, not for flaming purposes, we can all give “candid” feedback on whether or not it’s a complaint based on jumping preference, therefore not a valid complaint, or if it is truly a valid complaint. I recommend this because I am convinced that most complaints are using the "objects preservation" argument in vein and simply is “he’s not doing it my way” bitching. Basically, I am convinced it is just “BASE Drama”, like its cousin “DZ Drama” (e.g. “Can you believe so and so down sized his canopy… He’s definitely going to kill himself…”)…

And Seth… Please PM the specifics on what events you have noted on the infamous BASE jumpers that you have been “candid” with. I find it hard to believe that their not simply BASE jumping differently than you, and others, see fit.

P.S. Oh yeah I forgot to say this in my last post… Of course I don’t have anything personally against you. I’m just doing what you are doing, taking part in this discussion forum.

BATMAN - (A.K.A. SBCmac ...)


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