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miko

Austria

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Few days ago, one young unexperienced jumper from Slovakia jumped from DW in Austria. Problem: He was hundred of meters away from the real exitpoint. (For peoples who knows the cliff- he jumped out from the hole near the hiking summit...) After a super short delay, he open the chute and then he crashed into small trees on the very positiv part of the cliff, 350m above mother earth. Helirescue was following, great luck- no injuries... Congratulations to him for surviving!
One day later, we (the locals) were there and we talked with the peoples who are living in the village below the cliff. They said, for the helicrew it was a very high risk rescuemanoever. Next days, the mountain rescue try to safe the canopy - the chute is still hanging there. After an incident 3 years ago, one fatality 2 years ago, some crazy treelandings last year and after this last sh.t, the police is also very nervous yet! Officials thinking about an completly "flight activity stop" in this area (Hangliding, Paragliding, Basejumping...)
So please stay safe, respect the farmers there ( do not land in higher gras!), don´t pull over the houses (wingsuit).
Please note- Bevor jumping the DW we recommend, that you should have a minimum of 30 terminal basejumps! DW isn´t easy- for experienced jumpers only!

FUSA
Verein der "Fels und Strukturspringer Austria"
(Austrian Base Association)


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Unfortunately I feel that we going to start to deal with such situations more and more.
I won't be polite now and I'll say following:
How the hell someone can be so dumb and stupid to come to cliff for which he has no clue were the exit is and than jump off without trying to get in touch w locals or with more experienced jumpers , etc.... Luckily he survived and didn't become the part of the Nick list. To me that is the biggest mistake and harm made to Austrian Base association. Maybe here is the explanation
'' body armor - no brain''
Maybe we need to establish another list

People to Ignore - People to Avoid list

ITW - is a few steps away from becoming permanently closed
DW - is on the same path
ISTW- permanently closed
Croatian bridge - probably fill going to get the fence due to circus heavily organized by jumpers who does not even try to keep low profile

Soon if this continue will be no need to travel to EU

Thank you young boy for such foolish act. You and your mom can be proud you survive.
I am damn pissed
Robert Pecnik
robert@phoenix-fly.com
www.phoenix-fly.com

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and while we are at it:
People still jump the waterfall in LB. After 3 fatalities in 6 month and constant jumping activities from the waterfall, the people in LB (who are very tolerant by the way) are getting more nervous about the jumping.
If we can not respect a few simple rules like not jumping the fucking waterfall, not landing in high grass etc. also LB will be closed.

As a side note: I'm almost 100% sure that not one Swiss guy has jumped the waterfall since it has been closed...

But this has been said so many times, every fucking idiot must know this by now...
Michi (#1068)
hsbc/gba/sba
www.swissbaseassociation.ch
www.michibase.ch

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ITW - is a few steps away from becoming permanently closed
DW - is on the same path
ISTW- permanently closed

Soon if this continue will be no need to travel to EU

Thank you young boy for such foolish act. You and your mom can be proud you survive.
I am damn pissed



you should not only be mad at him. be mad at those who assisted him via poor training or encouraged him via publicity. it's sad, but apparently inevitable...

the less people openly talk about sites, the less video seen, the better we protect sites.

keep BASE personal, not public!
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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DW is my "backyard" cliff and i live 15min away from it. there´s a lot of jumping activity at DW and i wonder many times, why people don´t get in touch with us. some do, but i think most of the newbies don´t. when i heard about this stupid su****, i got really angry.

is it really that difficult, to keep the few simple rules in mind?!

andY
*pissed2*

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Sorry to hear about the recent problems you've had at DW. I jumped DW back in 1999 and it's a wonderful jump. Let's hope there are no further problems.

Since we are a self-policing sport and there are no repercussions for not following the rules, why has no one listed his name yet? I'm a firm believer in public humiliation if you screw things up for everyone.
(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

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Since we are a self-policing sport and there are no repercussions for not following the rules, why has no one listed his name yet? I'm a firm believer in public humiliation if you screw things up for everyone.



agreed.

but why did he choose such a poor exit point? I suspect it was a newbie. if so, we ought to consider humiliating the person who directed him. should we not treat them BOTH the same?

my sympathy goes out to the locals.
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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i wonder many times, why people don´t get in touch with us. some do, but i think most of the newbies don´t.



Possibly because they don't know who you are, or how to contact you? There may be a lot of jumpers out there who simply have never heard of this forum.
Looking for newbie rig, all components...

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i wonder many times, why people don´t get in touch with us. some do, but i think most of the newbies don´t.



Possibly because they don't know who you are, or how to contact you? There may be a lot of jumpers out there who simply have never heard of this forum.



Not smart enough to use the internet for research?!?! Even if they don't know about this forum or the others it would take very little to find them.
Seems to me that if they are too lazy and stupid to find the info they should have, then they are likely too stupid to survive BASE.

On another note......... you are not trying to say that body armour is a bad thing are you Robi?
SabreDave

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Possibly because they don't know who you are, or how to contact you? There may be a lot of jumpers out there who simply have never heard of this forum.



Try this for a while.

"Contact the locals" is a well known rule for all BASE jumpers. I don't buy for a second that anybody can learn to become a BASE jumper and not have heard of this rule, or not understand why it makes sense.

The BASE community has one of the lowest degrees of separation of any community. If you can't find the locals, you're either not trying hard enough or you're about to open up a new object.

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Try lurking for a while... "Contact the locals" is a well known rule



Sadly, some people never think of using this cool 20th century interweb thing. [:/] I'm thinking I may be in the minority here, but my progression has so far been (in this order):
  • hear about BASE through various outdoor mags
  • google: discover dropzone.com and basewiki.com
  • lurk for months, learning heaps
  • register on DZ
  • contact the locals (coincidentally, one is someone I had already met through a completely different path)

    Is there any way at all of improving things without publicizing the sport further? It could help if the gear manufacturers would try to make sure their customers get educated...
    Looking for newbie rig, all components...

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    oh boy :$ with pleasure!!
    What I meant to say with saying '' body armor - no brain'' is the kind of approach I have seen (99.99% super young base jumpers) who think they are invincible with body protection
    stronger than rock
    faster than speed of light...
    It is very natural to feel that way when they are young ( you know what I think - right :)It is not bad idea at all to have the body protection, but much better is to think and listen yourself, to know your own limits and at the end to call or ask for important things about any site no metter how easy it looks. People would like to have Boogie organized at ITW! Why?! It looks easy, well, check the Nick list 7 people died there...

    It is of the subject, but I see that body armor became very popular almost like a trend in Base society, were people think that this stuff makes miracle.
    In Russia, it was cool to have nothing on the body few years ago-now they looks like a warriors...

    Balance and common sense will save more lives than BA-NB approach.
    Robert Pecnik
    robert@phoenix-fly.com
    www.phoenix-fly.com

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    :(

    With all due respect Robi, your post makes me sad. Why are discussions on protection always presented as an either-or thing? Can't we have both? Armor and skill.

    You don't see experienced Nascar drivers get into their car without a helmet, laughing at the newbies with their confidence boosting protection. Instead, they collectively agree that protection is a good thing, and build comments like: "having experience and skill is a must" on top of that.

    You don't see free solo climbers laugh at those that use rope, making comments like: "if you were a skilled climber, you wouldn't need rope." Instead, the climbing community collectively agrees that wearing a helmet and using a rope is a smart idea. They also agree that skill and preparation are a must as well.

    I know of at least one recent fatality where body armor, a full face helmet and a vented canopy could very well have made for a significantly different outcome. I know of at least three people who came out of an object strike with zero injuries, thanks to their choice of gear. At least two of these jumpers had great skills too, but as many agree: sometimes, shit just happens.

    Allow me to rewrite your post a tiny bit, for the sake of argument...

    Quote

    What I meant to say with saying ''BASE-specific-gear - no brain'' is the kind of approach I have seen (99.99% super young base jumpers) who think they are invincible with BASE-specific-gear
    stronger than rock
    faster than speed of light...
    It is very natural to feel that way when they are young ( you know what I think - right :)It is not bad idea at all to have the BASE-specific-gear, but much better is to think and listen yourself, to know your own limits and at the end to call or ask for important things about any site no matter how easy it looks.



    Sounds reasonable, right? Yet using skydiving gear for BASE jumps is considered a foolish choice by most contemporary BASE jumpers.

    What about the tailgate? Damn those new kids on the block who think they are invincible to line-overs and can't even properly use the Line Release Mod. We should make sure all beginners jump without a tailgate for their first hundred jumps. That way they won't feel invincible and learn to use the LRM.

    The thing is, we have many gear improvements that have been proven in the field. Body armor, vented canopies and full-face helmets are some of them. There is simply no reason to jump solid slider-down objects without body armor, a full-face helmet and a vented canopy.

    I know, you're making a point about people wearing body armor and using that as an excuse for their jumping behavior and sense of protection. But let's not blame the armor. Instead, let's assume the armor is a given and shows an intelligent choice. Once that's established, let's talk about attitude and beginner skills.

    Also, let me state that I think that certain jumps can be made within relative safety without body armor. You won't hear me judge if you do long slider up tracking flights without any armor. Neither will you hear me judge if you jump a friendly span in t-shirts and shorts.

    However, I cringe every time I see a new video on MySpace, YouTube or SkydivingMovies, with a bunch of high fiving yahoos jumping in t-shirts and shorts, all having a blast together. Put differently, anybody visiting my town and interested in jumping my local slider down cliff better bring a vented canopy and body armor. If not, you'll have to find somebody else to show you where the exit point is.

    Harsh? Maybe, but I don't want to have to drag dead bodies out the canyon. But can't you still die even with vents and body armor? Sure you can, but you have to try a lot harder.

    Let's try some made-up statistics. These are totally pulled out of thin air. They are meant to get people thinking.

    Jumper categorization:

  • Group A: Unskilled jumpers without body armor: 30%
  • Group B: Skilled jumpers without body armor: 30%
  • Group C: Unskilled jumpers with body armor: 20%
  • Group D: Skilled jumpers with body armor: 20%

    Chance of dying on object strike:

  • Group A: 90%
  • Group B: 30%
  • Group C: 60%
  • Group D: 10%

    How much damage can we expect:

  • Group A: 90 * 30 = 2700
  • Group B: 30 * 30 = 900
  • Group C: 60 * 20 = 1200
  • Group D: 10 * 20 = 200

    Total damage: 5000

    If you haven't dismissed this as pointless math yet, what can we learn from this?

    First, what group should we worry about the most? It's pretty obvious; we should focus on group A, train them to be more skilled, and get them to wear body armor.

    However, there is a second lesson. Body armor is a much easier thing to obtain than skill. You just put down some money and you got it, no repeated training necessary. Most will discount this as a bad thing, but I'll argue that the stats above show that we can very easily reduce damages. How? Well, imagine everybody started wearing body armor tomorrow:

  • Group A: 90 * 0 = 0
  • Group B: 30 * 0 = 0
  • Group C: 60 * 50 = 3000
  • Group D: 10 * 50 = 500

    Total damage: 3500

    Voila, just by putting on some body armor, we can reduce the amount of damage that's being done.

    Does that mean that we don't need to train people and require them to have certain skills? Of course not, we should all strife for perfection in our body and canopy flight skills.

    Does that mean that people jumping the Perrine or the tall European towers should all wear body armor and jump vented canopies? Of course not, those are different types of jumps.

    However, it does mean that we have an opportunity to set an example. And that includes gear manufacturers, instructors and mentors leading the way and showing that body armor can be a good idea.

    In fact, it's one of many good ideas a BASE jumper will have to make within a sound and conservative risk management strategy. BASE specific gear, tailgates, vented canopies, armor, full face helmets, sturdy boots, obstacle avoidance drills, skydiving experience, sound judgement, etcetera, etcetera.

    A dumbass wearing body armor is still a dumbass, even when he takes it off...

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    I think you may be reading more into Robi's post than he wrote there. He did say that he thought protective gear was a good idea. He just said that he thought good judgment was more important than anything else, including protective gear.

    Put it this way:

    The brain between your ears will always be your best defense against injury. The armor you cover it with can protect it from damage, but if you're not using it, that doesn't matter much.
    -- Tom Aiello

    Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
    SnakeRiverBASE.com

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    ... Problem: He was hundred of meters away from the real exitpoint...



    Ok, I'm one of these new, stupid, know nothing, reasons BASE is going to shit new kids in the sport, but the lesson here is... don't jump till you talk to the locals because it can cause shit. Why is this so hard for people to understand?

    cya

    Those who do, can't explain. Those who don't, can't understand.

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    Thank you Tom.:)
    I never said armor is bad!
    What I said is that is stupid to hide behind the armor and think that this is enough. Nothing more, nor less.

    My two Cents,
    sorry for getting me wrong. I have young base jumpers around, I teach them as best as I can , including., body armor stuff too. (Personally I give 100,00€ to one who can find any video or picture of me were I have no helmet on my head when I jumping off the cliff, bridge, etc.... I am very strict about it)

    Again, the BA-NB is the way I expressed my angriness. With all respect to you, but I am present in this ''sport'' long enough to notice:

    1. It was never easier to get in to the BASE than it is now days.
    2. It was never less demands put in front of the BASE beginner from their mentors or friends.
    3. More than ever BASE is the trendy ''sport''.
    4. Learning curve is not really curve any more, rather just shallow flat line.
    5. Nick's list is quite good concerning the flood of unprepared people who are trying this ''sport''

    Therefore, we all need to know that 13 jumpers who died last year is not that terrible, concerning the problems BASE community have.

    Therefore we are facing situation described here ( slovakian young jumper.... )

    Some of the people like to get fast shortcut in order to achieve something ( the slovakian jumper and his mentor, teacher whatever, wont be surprised if he does not have one at all too... ). Is this a proper way ?! No!
    Rough, but that is what I think

    I am writing ''sport'' because I have opinion about this too, and for those who know me, know why I think this is a ''sport'' not sport.
    Robert Pecnik
    robert@phoenix-fly.com
    www.phoenix-fly.com

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    He just said that he thought good judgment was more important than anything else, including protective gear.



    People who wear lots of protection but can't fly their canopy worth a shit amuse me. And yeah, I have seen numerous instances of this.
    A waddling elephant seal is the cutest thing in the entire world.
    -TJ

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    just a related thought. I have been wondering lately if the increase in deaths will shy away potential newbies because of a higher percieved risk?Increase interest? Or are other factors stronger?Trendy,cool,etc. Or will news of the deaths not even reach the potential new jumpers to have an effect?

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    Or will news of the deaths not even reach the potential new jumpers to have an effect?



    will you find the news of the deaths on any of the internet video sites?
    DON'T PANIC
    The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
    sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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    In a BASE global warming sense it can now be said the whole world is hot. And it will only get hotter . . .

    The damage done by Felix, et al., and the glory hounds of the Youtube generation that followed his lead will eventually overwhelm any semblance of "control" this sport may have had. But what I find somewhat more worrisome is that some of you guys only speak up when it affects "your" sites."

    When I wrote, in another thread, about this happening in the U.S., with few exceptions, I was accused of overreacting and I could have used some backup from you guys. But you left me hanging out there like a big matzo ball . . .

    While we envy your legal sites aboard we also first (privately) wondered how long it would last. I saw it as a deal with the devil in order to gain something that should have been your right in the first place. If you had fought over the last fifteen years for the right to jump, instead of making deals, you might have achieved it, and kept it forever. Now you’re just a pen stroke away from being out of business.

    Sometimes I think we are too stupid to deserve BASE jumping. Personally, my biggest mistake was about fifteen years ago the day Felix walked into Basic Research. Just another Euro-dog tramping the States I thought, but I should have realized the monster that lurked inside the clean cut young man and drove a fucking stake through his heart . . .

    NickD :)BASE 194

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    I should have realized the monster that lurked inside the clean
    cut young man and drove a fucking stake through his heart . . .



    Nick, that was damn funny!! I was sitting in my living room
    with my in-laws and my wife, only half listening to their conversation
    while browsing the BASE board, and all of sudden I busted out laughing.
    Thanks man for the good laugh after a shitty day at the DZ.
    Rigger, Skydiver, BASE Jumper, Retired TM

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    However, I cringe every time I see a new video on MySpace, YouTube or SkydivingMovies, with a bunch of high fiving yahoos jumping in t-shirts and shorts, all having a blast together.



    There it is right there. I think of it as the 'BASE Idol' mentality. "Ok, so I'm a BASE jumper so when do I get my 5 minutes of fame?? I mean, shit, at least skydivers should be looking up to me because I BASE jump right???"

    The way I see it is the jumpers in the trenches at 4 in the morning know the real score. Fuck the glory hounds, maybe they can fool the wannabes on the DZ and try to get their needy egos stroked but that is about it...

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    Back when all the average home had were VHS video players we BASE jumpers already knew the power contained in those little black quarter inch video cassettes. At parties and gatherings, even jumper parties, skydive videos were pushed aside in favor of BASE stuff. Face it, to skydivers and wuffos alike, skydiving videos are boring unless you are in them.

    With the advent of computers, internet video, and BASE jumpers willing to feed the machine, you now see the next step in the chain. Links to BASE videos on internet web sites that have nothing at all to do with jumping. From climbing to cooking to knitting forums you'll see, "Hey guys, off topic, but you got to see this! . . .

    It's a glory hound's wet dream . . .

    You can see a good example of this over at Supertropo, a climbing forum where the owner, Chris, is a BASE jumper. He posts his wing suit videos there and pretty much has all these climbers gushing over them. And its worth noting that it wasn't too long ago climbers were fairly anti-BASE as a group. Now there's a lot of, "Boy, I'm going to do that," and, "I just started to skydive so I can do that," type posts. I've posted links to the BASE fatality page there, trying to give them a Yang to Chris's Ying, but they aren't able to comprehend all that yet.

    Of course, if you are type that thinks BASE is an "everyman's" sport than the above won’t make sense. If you are type who doesn't realize your glory houndness will cost lives and create access problems it won’t make sense. And if you are type that just doesn't care it won’t make sense.

    I can write as good a BASE story as anyone. But my best stuff won't connect with a non-jumper, or skydiver, the way even a poorly made BASE video will. BASE gear manufacturer Adam Filipino once famously said, "A BASE rig is a loaded gun," and he meant we needed to be careful about who had access to them. Well, if that was true, then BASE video on the internet is the atomic bomb . . .

    NickD :)BASE 194

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