VincentVL. 0 #26 November 30, 2006 So what you're telling me is that the ZP doesn't influence inflation and the staying inflated of a canopy? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtholmes 0 #27 November 30, 2006 I'm awesome, I know everything and the best base jumping tarp is the Fox without any of those vent deals. jt Holmes (the best most awesome base jumper in the world) and famous too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
avenfoto 0 #28 November 30, 2006 bah. what the hell do you know? ....physicist... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
460 0 #29 November 30, 2006 not sure what you're asking. i'm saying ZP seems more appropriate for big to medium walls where object separation are more likely and distant landing areas are common. ZP on low cliffs seems dangerous due to the higher chance of a bad off heading opening.Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VincentVL. 0 #30 November 30, 2006 That's what I was thinking. What I was asking was: does a ZP Blackjack inflate faster than a troll (for example) and does the ZP foreskin help on keeping the canopy inflated during a wallstrike. My powers of deduction tell me the ZP fabric has little or nothing to do with the inflation part of a jump. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
980 0 #31 November 30, 2006 I disagree. I have a reasonable sample size of jumps on standard Blackjack 260s. I have just replaced my 2 standard Blackjack 260s with ZP option Blackjack 260s. 3 BASEjumps on the ZP option so far and I believe it opens and starts flying (and being controllable) even quicker than the standard Blackjacks did. of course 3 jumps is not a reasonable sample size and maybe I have forgotten how fast my standard Blackjacks opened when they were brand new, so give me a few hundred jumps on the new ones and I will have a more valid opinion for you. ship me a brand new standard Blackjack 260 and let me jump it back to back with my ZP option Blackjacks for 2 years and I will tell you for sure it really is just about the only way to know I have heard that the ZP option Blackjacks not only have a higher forward speed in full flight, but can fly slower than the standard Blackjack also. I will try to find out and report back. More available flight range is only a bad thing if you do not fly the canopy in the correct part of that flight range for your given situation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vid666 0 #32 November 30, 2006 I think some people are confusing foreskin (only 30% of topskin is ZP - from the nose up to B lines) that CR offeres with full ZP TOPSKIN that Apex/CR both offer ... I would GUESS (As I have no jumps on anything but full F111) that ZP foreskin is alot less prone to offheadings then full ZP topskin. anybody ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pocbase 0 #33 November 30, 2006 Got lots of slider off on a Mojo 260 with full zp top skin. Pretty much all my off headings were bad body position (You're already thinking "oh shit" in freefall). One that was difficult to explain. It was my packjob but we swapped rigs for a 2 way off a bridge. My buddy ended up with a 180 and full line twist almost landing on a canoe and some guys working for the bungee jumping operation. We put that one down to the strong cross wind...The bums will never win Lebowski, the bums will never win! Enfin j'ai trouvé: Bieeeen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yuri_base 1 #34 November 30, 2006 Quotethe black will outfly a troll, or any other BASE canopy for that matter. Does the better glide come from the increased forward speed and the same vertical speed, or the decreased vertical and the same forward? (compared to other canopies of the same size at the same loading) Is BlackJack trimmed at the maximum of glide ratio (does a small rear riser input result in decreasing GR?) or you have some range on rears to improve GR? For what it's worth, vented Flik has a terrific GR, but it seems to be at its max in default trim. Imho, it's better to have both "up/down" options than just "down"...Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps: L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP iOS only: L/D Magic Windows only: WS Studio Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bryguy1224 11 #35 November 30, 2006 I have approx. 100 jumps on blackjacks with the zp topskin and have never experienced more that a 90 degree off heading slider down and I only remember that happening once. About 90 percent of my jumps are within 5 degrees of perfect on headings. In my exoerience the ZP does not increase the number of off headings. I have never jumped a blackjack without the zp. hope that helps. Bryan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #36 November 30, 2006 QuoteI think some people are confusing foreskin (only 30% of topskin is ZP - from the nose up to B lines) that CR offeres with full ZP TOPSKIN that Apex/CR both offer ... CR only offers the ZP foreskin (not full ZP topskin) on their Ace and Blackjack canopies. They offered a full ZP topskin on the Mojo, but at present the Mojo is not being produced, although there appears to be significant demand for it, so perhaps they'll decide to restart production.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tfelber 0 #37 November 30, 2006 I've videod several exits in Moab of people with Blackjacks and tuned right it appears they were pretty much dead stop on opening until the brakes were popped. My Flik out distanced them all from the same object, however, there are still many variables including delay, heading, and intentions. The Flik tends to out distance most canopies on any given jump. I did have a rather bone breaking landing flying in rears recently though. So as Yuri mentioned it may be trimmed near the limit. However, I don't have a problem with it stalling unexpectedly using rears or toggles. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #38 November 30, 2006 A blackjack with zp is not tuned for best glide, about 3 or 4 cm of rear riser give it best LD. The ZP may effect packing, but i do not think it does anything to heading performance. well tuned DBS blackjacks with foreskin i think, from what i have seen, open, and inflate faster. The reason only the first 30% of the canopy is ZP, is because it is really the only part that matters. (to an extent) the idea is to keep the airflow connected to the parachute, and if it stays well connected in the fist meter, then its pretty good. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blitzkrieg 0 #39 November 30, 2006 Quotebut at present the Mojo is not being produced, although there appears to be significant demand for it, so perhaps they'll decide to restart production. i have a couple Mojos i'd be willing to sell or trade towards a new ZP BlackJack. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiveal 0 #40 November 30, 2006 here is a picture of the worst piece of base gear i have ever seen. yes, 1 inch different in length. i also didnt like the bizzare pins on the side of the toggles. i got them with a rig and the t shirt in the picture.my hovercraft is full of eels. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base_rigger 0 #41 November 30, 2006 Maybe they were built that way to correct a built in turn on a Fox, who knows.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DaveO 0 #42 December 1, 2006 Quotebut the black will outfly a troll, or any other BASE canopy for that matter. I'll second that. With around 180 jumps on FOX's,45 jumps on a Flik, and 35 jumps on a Troll DW, all in the 285 sq ft range I can say for sure that the Black Jack/ACE will out glide them all. They are all good canopies, but as Tom Manship once told me, "You have to pick the canopy that best suits your flying style. The Black Jack with the ZP rocks! I have not noticed any issues with off headings because of the ZP upper skin."When it comes to BASE, I'll never give advice, only my opinion" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KevinMcGuire 0 #43 December 1, 2006 Ah yes. I remember that one. It was a shipping mistake made by the now infamous Dirty Dave while he was working in my shop. He took one short riser intended for a smaller customers order and sent it out with a standard riser as a standard riser set and then sent the other small riser and one large one to the smaller customer. The other customer was more understanding and allowed me to correct the mistake with out making a big deal out of it. Of course, Dave, took no responsibility in the matter. I was out of town at the time it happened and learned about on DZ.com and after I had fired Dave for being incompetent. Instead of allowing me to make the situation right, the person who received the incorrect risers in the U.K decided to use the incident to slam me and my work. It is reasons like, asshole employees, and arm chair rig builders like you that led to my desision to no longer build gear. It is simply not worth the head ache and the money is certainly not good enough to put up with it. As to weather or not you care for the design, that is neither here nor there. They are a proven design with many thousands of jumps to their credit. I have over 800 rigs out in the world. The recent fataltiy at bridge day was the first and only fatality to date on any NEO. Do you have a track record like that? How many rigs have you built? Please show us your designs. I'd love to critique them here in a public forum as you have done. In closing I'll offer this. Show me a man who has made no mistakes and I'll show you man who has done nothing at all. Kevin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pocbase 0 #44 December 1, 2006 I thought either this is photoshoped by a buddy of yours taking the piss or there's some rational explanation because this is just too big. So it turns out it was the second... The one about the built in turn made me laugh though.The bums will never win Lebowski, the bums will never win! Enfin j'ai trouvé: Bieeeen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mikki_ZH 0 #45 December 1, 2006 I have seen your rigs and I would jump them anytime without any doubts. And because a mistake like this could happen (I agree that it should not...) I always check and dobble check when I get new gear. And even I you don't check it specialy, if you pack your rig and do not notice that one riser is longer then the other you probably deserve to get hurt on a jump...Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiveal 0 #46 December 12, 2006 what you are saying is not true, you did not learn about it on dz.com. this thread is the first time i have posted anything about the way i was treated by you. maybe you are thinking of someone else? at the time i sent the risers back to you with the neo which had dents in the d rings after 16 jumps as well as a number of other design and quality issues, you told me you didn't even send me risers and also accused me of sabotaging the rig on purpose and trying to rip you off, you took 3 months to change the chest strap to the size i ordered and return it to me. this is the first time i heard the infamous dirty dave excuse. so you were paying him, you trusted him, he let you down and then refused to take responsibility did he?, well well, how did you feel when he did that to you kevin? from the comfort of my armchair i can see 2 rigs from basic research and after nearly 150 jumps on each i could not possibly be happier with the gear or their service.this thread is about the best gear and i answered katzurki asking about the worst. in closing ill offer this. every time you jump a parachute you are dealing with the manufacturer.my hovercraft is full of eels. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MyTwoCents 0 #47 December 12, 2006 QuoteEvery time you jump a parachute you are dealing with the manufacturer. I disagree. Your contract with the manufacturer ends the moment you leave an object. It is spelled out that way in most contracts (i.e., you can return the gear for a full refund before you make the first jump on it), but on a deeper level, every jumper is ultimately responsible for his own gear. I'd hate to see the day a gear manufacturer gets sued for faulty gear. That said, nothing stops you from preferring one manufacturer over another based on previous experience of course. Personally, I have no problems with the rare cases that a manufacturer sends out faulty gear. As Kevin points out; we're all human and we all make mistakes. Nobody stops us from sewing our own gear after all. What is more important to me is how a manufacturer handles such incidents, and that's to me what separates a good manufacturer (which most are) from a great one (which Asylum is... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pope 0 #48 December 13, 2006 This shit should be moved to a new thread.... Get over it. You were inconvenienced, you don't like BPR. Lesson learned then. But don't get all up in Kevin's shit about taking personal responsibility for his employees and then make a statement like: Quotein closing ill offer this. every time you jump a parachute you are dealing with the manufacturer. Don't be a hypocrite. This is BASE jumping. At the end of the day, only YOU are responsible for what happens to you when you jump. If you had hooked up those risers and jumped them, had a gnarly 180 and bashed you against the wall all the way down to the talus would THAT be Kevin's fault? Of course not, because YOU would have been the idiot that didn't COMPLETELY check ALL your gear out before you jumped it. Is there anyone here that trusts their BASE/Skydive gear manufaturer so implicitly that you'd hook it up and jump brand new gear straight out of the box without a complete inspection (excluding of course the folks that build their own rigs...)? I'd just like to say for the record that IMHO, if you do, you're an idiot. There is a point soon after your gear arrives, that the manufacturer's "responsibility" ends. CUSTOMER SERVICE is a different issue altogether, and that is up to the individual business owner, but don't confuse Customer service with responsibility. In other words, you're wrong. Every time you jump a parachute you're taking your life into your own hands...PERIOD. The manufacturers responsibility is through as soon as you step off. Whatever happened between you and BPR is over and done with. Move on and go make a jump! respectfully, pope Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiveal 0 #49 December 13, 2006 well yea alright...i do feel sort of bad now i finally got my chance to vent about the service,i dont think im completely wrong as this is the first time i have roasted kevin in public, the service and the rig was so bad and the thread topic did seem to be apropriate. all your other points i have taken and yes you are right its all my responsibility and ill get over it now and i wont mention it on the internet again....my bad.my hovercraft is full of eels. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites magot 0 #50 December 13, 2006 I had a cliff strike when use ing your neo I think it was your fault. Oh yah and I got a parking tiket the other day I think that was your fault as well Kevin by the way u ow me 45 bucks for the tiketTOSS MY SALAD I'm an invincible re-tarded ninja derka derka bakala bakala muhammad jihad 1072 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 0 Go To Topic Listing
skydiveal 0 #40 November 30, 2006 here is a picture of the worst piece of base gear i have ever seen. yes, 1 inch different in length. i also didnt like the bizzare pins on the side of the toggles. i got them with a rig and the t shirt in the picture.my hovercraft is full of eels. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base_rigger 0 #41 November 30, 2006 Maybe they were built that way to correct a built in turn on a Fox, who knows.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaveO 0 #42 December 1, 2006 Quotebut the black will outfly a troll, or any other BASE canopy for that matter. I'll second that. With around 180 jumps on FOX's,45 jumps on a Flik, and 35 jumps on a Troll DW, all in the 285 sq ft range I can say for sure that the Black Jack/ACE will out glide them all. They are all good canopies, but as Tom Manship once told me, "You have to pick the canopy that best suits your flying style. The Black Jack with the ZP rocks! I have not noticed any issues with off headings because of the ZP upper skin."When it comes to BASE, I'll never give advice, only my opinion" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinMcGuire 0 #43 December 1, 2006 Ah yes. I remember that one. It was a shipping mistake made by the now infamous Dirty Dave while he was working in my shop. He took one short riser intended for a smaller customers order and sent it out with a standard riser as a standard riser set and then sent the other small riser and one large one to the smaller customer. The other customer was more understanding and allowed me to correct the mistake with out making a big deal out of it. Of course, Dave, took no responsibility in the matter. I was out of town at the time it happened and learned about on DZ.com and after I had fired Dave for being incompetent. Instead of allowing me to make the situation right, the person who received the incorrect risers in the U.K decided to use the incident to slam me and my work. It is reasons like, asshole employees, and arm chair rig builders like you that led to my desision to no longer build gear. It is simply not worth the head ache and the money is certainly not good enough to put up with it. As to weather or not you care for the design, that is neither here nor there. They are a proven design with many thousands of jumps to their credit. I have over 800 rigs out in the world. The recent fataltiy at bridge day was the first and only fatality to date on any NEO. Do you have a track record like that? How many rigs have you built? Please show us your designs. I'd love to critique them here in a public forum as you have done. In closing I'll offer this. Show me a man who has made no mistakes and I'll show you man who has done nothing at all. Kevin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pocbase 0 #44 December 1, 2006 I thought either this is photoshoped by a buddy of yours taking the piss or there's some rational explanation because this is just too big. So it turns out it was the second... The one about the built in turn made me laugh though.The bums will never win Lebowski, the bums will never win! Enfin j'ai trouvé: Bieeeen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mikki_ZH 0 #45 December 1, 2006 I have seen your rigs and I would jump them anytime without any doubts. And because a mistake like this could happen (I agree that it should not...) I always check and dobble check when I get new gear. And even I you don't check it specialy, if you pack your rig and do not notice that one riser is longer then the other you probably deserve to get hurt on a jump...Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiveal 0 #46 December 12, 2006 what you are saying is not true, you did not learn about it on dz.com. this thread is the first time i have posted anything about the way i was treated by you. maybe you are thinking of someone else? at the time i sent the risers back to you with the neo which had dents in the d rings after 16 jumps as well as a number of other design and quality issues, you told me you didn't even send me risers and also accused me of sabotaging the rig on purpose and trying to rip you off, you took 3 months to change the chest strap to the size i ordered and return it to me. this is the first time i heard the infamous dirty dave excuse. so you were paying him, you trusted him, he let you down and then refused to take responsibility did he?, well well, how did you feel when he did that to you kevin? from the comfort of my armchair i can see 2 rigs from basic research and after nearly 150 jumps on each i could not possibly be happier with the gear or their service.this thread is about the best gear and i answered katzurki asking about the worst. in closing ill offer this. every time you jump a parachute you are dealing with the manufacturer.my hovercraft is full of eels. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MyTwoCents 0 #47 December 12, 2006 QuoteEvery time you jump a parachute you are dealing with the manufacturer. I disagree. Your contract with the manufacturer ends the moment you leave an object. It is spelled out that way in most contracts (i.e., you can return the gear for a full refund before you make the first jump on it), but on a deeper level, every jumper is ultimately responsible for his own gear. I'd hate to see the day a gear manufacturer gets sued for faulty gear. That said, nothing stops you from preferring one manufacturer over another based on previous experience of course. Personally, I have no problems with the rare cases that a manufacturer sends out faulty gear. As Kevin points out; we're all human and we all make mistakes. Nobody stops us from sewing our own gear after all. What is more important to me is how a manufacturer handles such incidents, and that's to me what separates a good manufacturer (which most are) from a great one (which Asylum is... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pope 0 #48 December 13, 2006 This shit should be moved to a new thread.... Get over it. You were inconvenienced, you don't like BPR. Lesson learned then. But don't get all up in Kevin's shit about taking personal responsibility for his employees and then make a statement like: Quotein closing ill offer this. every time you jump a parachute you are dealing with the manufacturer. Don't be a hypocrite. This is BASE jumping. At the end of the day, only YOU are responsible for what happens to you when you jump. If you had hooked up those risers and jumped them, had a gnarly 180 and bashed you against the wall all the way down to the talus would THAT be Kevin's fault? Of course not, because YOU would have been the idiot that didn't COMPLETELY check ALL your gear out before you jumped it. Is there anyone here that trusts their BASE/Skydive gear manufaturer so implicitly that you'd hook it up and jump brand new gear straight out of the box without a complete inspection (excluding of course the folks that build their own rigs...)? I'd just like to say for the record that IMHO, if you do, you're an idiot. There is a point soon after your gear arrives, that the manufacturer's "responsibility" ends. CUSTOMER SERVICE is a different issue altogether, and that is up to the individual business owner, but don't confuse Customer service with responsibility. In other words, you're wrong. Every time you jump a parachute you're taking your life into your own hands...PERIOD. The manufacturers responsibility is through as soon as you step off. Whatever happened between you and BPR is over and done with. Move on and go make a jump! respectfully, pope Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiveal 0 #49 December 13, 2006 well yea alright...i do feel sort of bad now i finally got my chance to vent about the service,i dont think im completely wrong as this is the first time i have roasted kevin in public, the service and the rig was so bad and the thread topic did seem to be apropriate. all your other points i have taken and yes you are right its all my responsibility and ill get over it now and i wont mention it on the internet again....my bad.my hovercraft is full of eels. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites magot 0 #50 December 13, 2006 I had a cliff strike when use ing your neo I think it was your fault. Oh yah and I got a parking tiket the other day I think that was your fault as well Kevin by the way u ow me 45 bucks for the tiketTOSS MY SALAD I'm an invincible re-tarded ninja derka derka bakala bakala muhammad jihad 1072 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 0
pope 0 #48 December 13, 2006 This shit should be moved to a new thread.... Get over it. You were inconvenienced, you don't like BPR. Lesson learned then. But don't get all up in Kevin's shit about taking personal responsibility for his employees and then make a statement like: Quotein closing ill offer this. every time you jump a parachute you are dealing with the manufacturer. Don't be a hypocrite. This is BASE jumping. At the end of the day, only YOU are responsible for what happens to you when you jump. If you had hooked up those risers and jumped them, had a gnarly 180 and bashed you against the wall all the way down to the talus would THAT be Kevin's fault? Of course not, because YOU would have been the idiot that didn't COMPLETELY check ALL your gear out before you jumped it. Is there anyone here that trusts their BASE/Skydive gear manufaturer so implicitly that you'd hook it up and jump brand new gear straight out of the box without a complete inspection (excluding of course the folks that build their own rigs...)? I'd just like to say for the record that IMHO, if you do, you're an idiot. There is a point soon after your gear arrives, that the manufacturer's "responsibility" ends. CUSTOMER SERVICE is a different issue altogether, and that is up to the individual business owner, but don't confuse Customer service with responsibility. In other words, you're wrong. Every time you jump a parachute you're taking your life into your own hands...PERIOD. The manufacturers responsibility is through as soon as you step off. Whatever happened between you and BPR is over and done with. Move on and go make a jump! respectfully, pope Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiveal 0 #49 December 13, 2006 well yea alright...i do feel sort of bad now i finally got my chance to vent about the service,i dont think im completely wrong as this is the first time i have roasted kevin in public, the service and the rig was so bad and the thread topic did seem to be apropriate. all your other points i have taken and yes you are right its all my responsibility and ill get over it now and i wont mention it on the internet again....my bad.my hovercraft is full of eels. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
magot 0 #50 December 13, 2006 I had a cliff strike when use ing your neo I think it was your fault. Oh yah and I got a parking tiket the other day I think that was your fault as well Kevin by the way u ow me 45 bucks for the tiketTOSS MY SALAD I'm an invincible re-tarded ninja derka derka bakala bakala muhammad jihad 1072 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
