The consequences of an injury

[K763 0]

You tell 'em JJ! I can't believe the lack of respect I see from these newer jumpers towards the guys further back. Next, one of these idjits will be saying that Anne or Moe or Kevin have NOTHING of use to tell their sorry asses...because they're SKYDIVERS and they know it all!!!!
And Moe's prediction comes true: skydivers with Internet and credit cards buy BASE equipment and start killing/injuring themselves left and right...and there goes the rep of BASE ever deeper into the toilet.
Thanks, kids! You do BASE such a wonderful service...(heavy sarcasm obvious, I hope).

Be safe, have fun, and soft landings...
K

[Lonnie 0]

It's only gonna get worse K
I'll bet there are a few trying to figure out who Moe, Anne, and Kevin are right now.

NEVER GIVE UP!

[wwarped 0]

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I'll bet there are a few trying to figure out who Moe, Anne, and Kevin are

well, where's the video?
(if there's no video, it didn't happen!)


[I'm sure some will miss the satire...]

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[stitch 0]

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It's only gonna get worse K
I'll bet there are a few trying to figure out who Moe, Anne, and Kevin are right now.

You mean Moe V., Anne H., and Bombproof??

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[pocbase 0]

It's true now

It was true then too

"if there's no video, it didn't happen!"

The bums will never win Lebowski, the bums will never win!
Enfin j'ai trouvé:
Bieeeen

[base736 0]

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And Moe's prediction comes true: skydivers with Internet and credit cards buy BASE equipment and start killing/injuring themselves left and right...and there goes the rep of BASE ever deeper into the toilet.

There must be a secret fatality list somewhere with all of these internet folks on it, because it seems to me that The List is largely populated by BASE jumpers very much like the folks I know and respect who made one bad choice at the wrong time.

Twelve BASE jumpers have died jumping in the last year. Perhaps you could enlighten the rest of us by sharing a list of those who were "skydivers with internet and credit cards"?

Edit to add: On second thought, don't. I'm not really interested in reading it.

[Mikki_ZH 0]

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You tell 'em JJ! I can't believe the lack of respect I see from these newer jumpers towards the guys further back. Next, one of these idjits will be saying that Anne or Moe or Kevin have NOTHING of use to tell their sorry asses...because they're SKYDIVERS and they know it all!!!!
And Moe's prediction comes true: skydivers with Internet and credit cards buy BASE equipment...

Hey K,
I'm a new jumper and I have lots of respect for the pioneers of our sport. But my friends that I jump with are more important to me then the pioneers are (Hey Micke, your both, a pioneer and a friend so you are dobble important... And regarding your comment about the credit card and Internet. Your profile says that you are a BASE manufacturer and you live in Perris, so hey, you must know this. I hope people need a bit more then a Credit Card and Internet to buy one of your rigs...

Michi (#1068)
hsbc/gba/sba
www.swissbaseassociation.ch
www.michibase.ch

[stitch 0]

This thread sure is going off topic.



As a public service annoucement; You guys might wanna watch what you say to KT. Rumor has it, she has taken up voodoo or something along those lines.

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[MyTwoCents 0]

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There must be a secret fatality list somewhere with all of these internet folks on it, because it seems to me that The List is largely populated by BASE jumpers very much like the folks I know and respect who made one bad choice at the wrong time.

Twelve BASE jumpers have died jumping in the last year. Perhaps you could enlighten the rest of us by sharing a list of those who were "skydivers with internet and credit cards"?

There is more to BASE than death. Although I do not have any numbers, I have a feeling that unexperienced beginners are more susceptible to injury than experienced jumpers are.

The kind of errors that lead to injury often come from misjudgement and overconfidence. The very thing beginners have plenty off. The kind of errors that lead to death are, in many cases, on an entirely different scale.

The gung-ho beginner jumper says: "There's a slight cross-wind and the landing area is tight, but I think I'll be able to make it.". These are the type of jumps that don't necessarily kill, but do bad things to femurs and vertebraes.

The experienced jumper says: "Fuck it, I'm going home. I got cold beer in the fridge, and there's always tomorrow." This is ironic, since the experienced jumper probably has a better chance of coming out in one piece.

On the other hand, it is the experienced jumper that will say: "I can do a wingsuit gainer and still out-track this ledge", something you won't hear from a beginner.

Yes, there are exceptions to either category; but my point is that death is typically a hindsight thing whereas injury is more often than not plain-and-simple foresight.

I suspect that there will always be more experienced people on the fatality list, while the unwritten injury list continues to have all the beginners on it.

[base736 0]

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I suspect that there will always be more experienced people on the fatality list, while the unwritten injury list continues to have all the beginners on it.

That seems reasonable. But it only serves to underscore my point -- that it is dismissive, insulting to newer jumpers, and breeds a false sense of security among the experienced when a jumper characterizes recent injuries and fatalities as resulting from "skydivers with internet and credit cards", or "jumpers doing it just for the video." Such claims are not only largely false, in my opinion, but damaging to the safety of the sport in that they encourage jumpers to chalk up any given injury or fatality to "some dumbass doing something I would never do".

[Tornolf 0]

That makes me think back to when I trained with a diving coach who trained several very well known, experienced, and skilled jumpers. Every person he seriously trained is now dead. He even told me that I wasn't supposed to go off and get myself killed like everyone else he trained, but he didn't expect me to follow that advice since no one else had. It's the one situation where I really didn't like being compared to those who were much better than I am.

A waddling elephant seal is the cutest thing in the entire world.
-TJ

[wwarped 0]

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Such claims are not only largely false, in my opinion, but damaging to the safety of the sport in that they encourage jumpers to chalk up any given injury or fatality to "some dumbass doing something I would never do".

ever consider that the experienced jumpers are trying to SLOW down the newer jumpers?
possibly because it's "some dumbass thing that I've done?" or "some dumbass thing that I've witnessed?"

why view it as simply an US vs THEM thing?

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[base736 0]

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why view it as simply an US vs THEM thing?

But that is precisely not how I view it. I think each of us would do well to remember that we are all -- whether we started in 1976 or 2006 -- susceptible to the sorts of mistakes that have been made in the past, and should for that reason be very careful to educate ourselves, and not to repeat them.

Going back to K's post, I fail to see how dismissing newer jumpers as a bunch of douches who are responsible for the decay of BASE does anything to improve safety. More than that, to repeat myself, I think that saying "they're not like me" does exactly the opposite.

[MMK 0]

I am not convinced by this argument. Beginners under guidance take a lot more time in preperation and planning for what might be considered a 'simple' jump. They will walk out to the Potatoe bridge, try to see things they have been told about to look out for and eventually decide to go to the car park and put their gear on and re-check the conditions and go for it. The danger group is the one that has progressed from beginner to intermediate and now feel in the 'saf(er) zone - done it a couple of times, know whats going on and go for it - of course there is always the surprise that on jump 51 things are completely different. Then you get to the experienced group that walks out and does the stuff with plenty of experience in the bag - I mean I was at the Potatoe bridge once and I thought 'No Way' and all the Aussies and NZ gang jumped anyway despite landing everytime going backwards in the rock garden - but they had the skill to do it everytime without a scratch. I truly think the issue is with people who transit from beginner to intermediate (whatever that is) - you suddenly 'think' you know what you are doing and you push beyond their personal limits. I think that is different from advanced jumpers who push the limit of what can be done.

Of course, I forgot to mention that beginners are driven by numbers and objects, whilst the experienced folks are happy to sit a jump out if it does not feel 100% for them - so I agree with that.

Just My Penny - 'No comments are meant to offend individuals and are purely a personal view presented by myself'.

[pope 0]

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I truly think the issue is with people who transit from beginner to intermediate (whatever that is) - you suddenly 'think' you know what you are doing and you push beyond their personal limits. I think that is different from advanced jumpers who push the limit of what can be done.

Dead is Dead.
A BASE jump is a BASE jump.

if it's from a bridge over water or an underhung razor-sharp cliff with no landing area, it's still a BASE jump and we still might die. We're ALL the issue/problem. You. Me. Him. Her. Don't be that guy.

[luv2fly 0]

What up Pope. Dead is dead and a base jump is a base jump. But..

From my own experience - and coaching, mentoring, and watching many beginner BASE jumpers develop into well rounded confident level headed BASE jumpers...they often go thru a "passage of injury" before they level off into a "smarter" jumper...so I'll agree with that what My Two Cents, 736 Tornolf and wwarped are saying... with MMK I say yes and no. Newbies without guidance are potentially more likely to become statistics. Not all newbies assess their jumps appropriately. Hence rubberbands on PC's, flying wingsuits into walls, not having a system to make sure the bridle is attached, not being prepared for offheadings, unstable exits, etc.

It's the disillusioned that usually fuck up and die. Whether beginner, intermediate or experienced (RT, TC, TM, DW, DT, JF, LB, etc). For the beginner the disillusion is lack of guidance, for the intermediate the disillusion is over-confidence, for the experienced the disillusion is complacency, lack of foresight or forethought - whether it's gear knowledge, physics, conditions, or whatever. Every jump is experimental. Every jump needs to be thought out. And every jump needs to have the right gear to lessen a potential accident.

This call for a need to get good initial training, have a mentor, do plenty of "BASE research," know the gear and have the best gear, become intimately knowledgeable with "The List" (thanks Nick), and keeping your activities in check.

A very experienced BASEr recently indicated to me that he was weighing it out (BASE), because I think he was experiencing that disillusionment (he's doing some fantastic jumps with his buddies around the globe) that we can ALL get caught up in.

Stay focused and stay alive!
JJ

[pope 0]

Respeck JJ...points understood and taken, BUT

Let's consider the state of this sport as it is today, if the S in TF is "closed" to legal jumping tomorrow. Considering the types of jumpers getting into the sport today, would you still feel the same way as in your post now that most of the present and future "passage of injury" jumpers (in the US anyhow) will now be doing all of the learning on that curve from antennas, cliffs, buildings, and other spans?

Maybe a question for another thread, so I'll stop now and post the question there so as not to hijack.
cheers,
pope

PS: Does this mean we may share another exit point soon??

[tfelber 0]

So I told the guy at the bar "I was playing softball and the goalie got pissed and hit me in the leg with his raquet." He says "Yeah right." I said "OK, I jumped off a 250 foot bridge and ran out of altitude before I ran out of speed. Is that any easier to believe?"