virgin-burner 1 #76 May 31, 2011 Quote Quote Quote @3:00 I start to deploy smoke...then the beeper goes off. you were looking at your DIGITAL altimeter before that, weren't you!? Yup...TRIPLE redundancy, knew from the Mk.1 eyeball I was damn close, checked wrist to confirm, opened smoke container and beep beep beep! mhm, i have TWO audibles, a beeping altimeter (could be the same as yours! ) and my mark1.. how much redundancy is that now, i've lost count.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TommyM 3 #77 May 31, 2011 Quote***I watch the ground on climb out to get a feel for how houses look at 1,000, 2,000 and so forth, so that I get a visual clue when my batteries are dead and/or the needle is stuck on my altimeter. I keep instruments on hand, but expect them to fail en masse at the worst possible time - since they have been known to do so. BSBD,Winsor I don't have much to add except my own experience which is based on a relentless curiosity about my physical surroundings and my relative position in them. I've spent countless plane rides to altitude looking outside the airplane and playing a mental training game by guessing and verifying my altitude. I became remarkably accurate judging my altitude. The result of my little habit is that I looked at my altimeter less and less. Toward the end of my active years, on regular skydives, I rarely looked at my altimeter in freefall, instead relying on the visual cues such as the horizon, size of houses, landmarks, etc, There is usually also a pretty distinct "thickening" of the air and an increase in temperature that alerts your senses to your impending doom. I also developed a pretty good subconscious sense of time in freefall. Another habit I had was looking at my altimeter while deploying to confirm my saddle altitude...I was never surprised. Durring my last malfunction I didn't look at my altimeter because I pretty much knew my deployment altitude and if I didn't cut away and launch my reserve PDQ I would be dead anyway. As for using a beeper for pattern work, I would find it a distraction, but I've trained myself to judge how high I am. Trust me, I'm no brilliant guy with superman senses, it was just a byproduct of curiosity. I've also made plenty of low jumps between 2k and 3k, and a few quite a bit lower, which really focuses your altitude awareness. This is why a ballon jump is so damn scary...you have plenty of time to look at the ground and see how much closer it looks when you can observe at lesiure instead of at 120MPH. Perhaps it would be wise for newer jumpers to observe the horizon and the ground in a thoughtfull way in order to train their biological sensory systems in conjunction with a regular old altimeter, maybe make a few low jumps now and again, certaintly not to end up with my habits but to sharpen their general altitude awareness and mental acuity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Throttlebender 0 #78 June 1, 2011 Give it a rest guys. Everyone uses an altimeter of some sort. Audible, analog, or digital on the wrist, it doesn't matter. We all use them for cues as to when and where we execute things. The eyes are definitely necessary and the final decision maker. But all this static about which one is best is truly subjective. What works for one person may not work for someone else as well. Hopefully, everyone is using multiple inputs to determine the best course of action, and if they're not, then that's a problem.Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #79 June 1, 2011 My 2nd jump at the Farm my altimeter took a shit. I had been in freefall for a bit and it was still reading 14.6K. I was SO glad my instructors had drilled into me to use my altimeter as a backup for what my eyes were telling me. Don't get me wrong, I love having my alti there to "verify" my altitude, but it was really good to know I had a good enough sight picture that I was not dependent on it. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #80 June 1, 2011 I teach all of my students to look out of the plane and then guess what their altimeter says on the way up. Its a great way to train your eyeballs.. Who would you rather have flying your plane - the old time pilot who successfully landed a jet with no engines in the Hudson River, or the Air France pilot who pulled up and stalled the plane when his instruments started giving erroneous readings? I'll take the old-timer any day.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #81 June 1, 2011 Who would you rather have flying your plane - the old time pilot who successfully landed a jet with no engines in the Hudson River, or the Air France pilot who pulled up and stalled the plane when his instruments started giving erroneous readings? If those are the only choices...I'm walking! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #82 June 1, 2011 The only thing I thought you used a beeping device for was to remember to take your meds....you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #83 June 1, 2011 QuoteAfter all, you need to be a 'skilled' canopy pilot to be safe, so that should really be the goal of every jumper, and should really eliminate the need for beepers under canopy. The obvious exception would be pro-level swoopers, for whom differences of 50 or 75ft can make a big difference. These jumper already know how to fly without the beeper, and use it to refine their performance to a level beyond the limits of the human eyeball. No such level of precision is need in the pattern where 50 or 75 or even 100ft does not make the difference. The tolerance limits in the pattern are will within the confines of the human eye) I'm going to be a PITA and latch onto this last bit here. Being off by 100 ft while flying in the pattern is not harmless. That can mean overshooting your intended point of landing by a couple hundred feet (or more, especially if there's no wind or a slight downwind.) That's exactly the kind of crap that leads to S-turning or low turns to avoid obstacles at the end of the landing area and either royally screwing up the stack of canopies behind you or thumping yourself into the ground. This is an even larger risk if jumpers are at a new dropzone or wind conditions change unexpectedly. You mention the solution to this is to "be a skilled canopy pilot." Okay... great... Are audible canopy alerts sufficient or even necessary to achieve this? No. Can they be used effectively to improve consistency in everyday pattern flying just like in pro-level swooping? Yes. I don't understand the concern about canopy audibles being another nail in the coffin of the good ol' days of skydiving. What I can understand is the concern about new jumpers adding "things" to their skydive without getting proper guidance on how to do so effectively and safely. But that concern encompasses a lot more than just canopy beeps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fly67 0 #84 June 1, 2011 Quote "There have been many technological leaps that have changed the sport forever, and audible information for canopy flight is proving to be one of the most profound. By knowing exactly how high we are at all times, we can act appropriately. We can relax more as we fly our approach, and enjoy the simplicity and joy of landing our parachutes without worry." If someone is really relaxing and not worrying because they have an audible that they believe will tell them "exactly how high you are at all times" then they are dangerously dependent on a device. I agree, there should always be some "worry" or at least vigilance. In most areas of life the consequences of a mistake are not so grave. It might not count for much, but I'll throw in a newbie's experience about altimeter technology (and how it's corrupted my judgment). I trained on an Altimaster and did okay. I misread it a couple times in free fall near pull time, and I was a little uneasy at low altitudes because it didn't read that accurately (not that I made mistakes because of that). After I got my license, I got a Viso which was more accurate and easy to read (for me). I can time my pull to within 100-200 feet of my target altitude. Also, it's nice to look at the log and confirm I was open at so-and-so altitude and know the snivel etc. And for my landing pattern it's nice to know I'm at (or close to) 900, 600, 300 ft (confirming by eye of course). Soon after, I got an audible. I set up alerts at my landing pattern altitudes. I don't blindly turn when I hear a beep, and still mostly rely on the visual altimeter and gut feeling ("oh, I'm definitely high"). The audible and my Viso are usually within 20 ft of each other. Could I get by without all the digital technology? Sure. In fact I tend to land more accurately (and have more fun) by feeling it out than trying to hit my turn points exactly with 90 degree turns to hit my target. Also, on plane rides to altitude, I try to guess the altitude to train myself. I wouldn't yet rely on it only, but I'm working on it. I think most agree if there is a potential problem with using audibles, it's not the technology per se (yes it "could" fail), but more the users. Some fly cautiously and others fly more obliviously or aggressively. I think this is more of a risk than technology (but I haven't been in the sport hardly any amount of time:). Call me a chicken, but this is why I still land at the alternate LZ. Last weekend at the main LZ I saw a close call where one canopy cut in front of another on it's base. Neither was swooping and were both 55+ yo. The safety guy went out and talked to both of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #85 June 1, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Gentlemen, things will always be changing. There is no point in crying about it. that's the entire point of Being an old timer... It's been happening in general society for generations, it's their job to complain about loud music, fast bikes noisy equipment, and young guns who is likely die or get seriously injured contrary to their warnings Squeak, at my age I NEED loud music, I'm a mite deef.... but that stuff just ain't music (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
