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chuckakers

This is what the sport has come to

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Gentlemen, things will always be changing. There is no point in crying about it.

that's the entire point of Being an old timer... It's been happening in general society for generations, it's their job to complain about loud music, fast bikes noisy equipment, and young guns who is likely die or get seriously injured contrary to their warnings


Hi Squeak

You 100% correct except for one minor clarification.:ph34r:

It's not my job to complain about loud music or any of that silly stuff. I rather enjoy it and find the whole situation entertaining:D

I enjoy reading about various activities where some of the different generation groups, are whineing about "them" and the other them.:)
It is what it is. When you get old enough & seen enought cycles:|

Its entertainment:P;)B|:ph34r::D:o
One Jump Wonder

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I couldn't disagree with this more if you paid me.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=754

If you need a f*cking beep in your ear to help you land your parachute, sell your rig before you hurt someone. >:(



Indeed a bunch of whining dinosours. :P If it help to keep newbie swoopers alive than it's the way to go.

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I couldn't disagree with this more if you paid me.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=754

If you need a f*cking beep in your ear to help you land your parachute, sell your rig before you hurt someone. >:(



Indeed a bunch of whining dinosaurs. :P If it help to keep newbie swoopers alive than it's the way to go.



Yup...battery operated skydivers don't NEED to be competent, next comes training wheels for their Harleys! B|










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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No, it isn't what the sport has come to; it's where the sport is going!

I don't know of many skydivers who are cyborg "Terminators" with built in laser-ranging eyes, built-in altimeters, or built-in GPS receivers.

Using an audible with canopy alarms merely provides a reference point so that jumpers can fine-tune their visual perception of altitude and do it far more accurately with less workload.

How can that hurt?

--
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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No, it isn't what the sport has come to; it's where the sport is going!

I don't know of many skydivers who are cyborg "Terminators" with built in laser-ranging eyes, built-in altimeters, or built-in GPS receivers.

Using an audible with canopy alarms merely provides a reference point so that jumpers can fine-tune their visual perception of altitude and do it far more accurately with less workload.

How can that hurt?

--



It is a tool to help someone who has already built the skills and experienced needed in canopy flight to further refine their abilities. My Mark1Mod0 eyeball has saved my life on a number of swoops over the years. You have to build that site picture over time and no amount of beeping in your ear will save your life like your eye balls can!
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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No, it isn't what the sport has come to; it's where the sport is going!

I don't know of many skydivers who are cyborg "Terminators" with built in laser-ranging eyes, built-in altimeters, or built-in GPS receivers.

Using an audible with canopy alarms merely provides a reference point so that jumpers can fine-tune their visual perception of altitude and do it far more accurately with less workload.

How can that hurt?

--



It is a tool to help someone who has already built the skills and experienced needed in canopy flight to further refine their abilities. My Mark1Mod0 eyeball has saved my life on a number of swoops over the years. You have to build that site picture over time and no amount of beeping in your ear will save your life like your eye balls can!



Ya might wanna listen to ol' Dave. He's got this sh*t dialed in pretty nicely.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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In some cultures, a few of you might be gettin set adrift on an ice flow about now:P



Yeah...only to show up 5 days later poolside in Vegas with a vodka rocks, 50K in Russian gold and a bikini model next to 'em! B|;)




One of the Donner Party (1846) was exiled in the desert (what is now Nevada) and left without supplies to die. 4 months later he turned up as part of a rescue group helping to rescue the survivors of the party.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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It's not just skydiving, it's life in general. I have friends who won't take a road trip without a GPS. Even worse, I work with some folks (doing air ambulance flights) that are afraid to go to a VFR only airport at night due to the lack of approaches, weather reporting, and glide slope indication. I enjoy actually using the skills I spent so many years learning and refining to complete the task.

Chuck, you'll be happy to know that when I bought a used helmet that came with an audible my instructors advice was to leave the thing off until my pattern is perfect, and then maybe think about putting batteries in it.

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If you need a f*cking beep in your ear to help you land your parachute...



We need a GPS to determine our spot.
We need an audible altimeter to tell us when to pull.
We need an AAD to deploy our reserve.
And now we need more ear beeps to fly a landing pattern.

I suppose it was inevitable.

I can see it now:
S&TA: "Why did you turn into that other jumper and almost collide with him?"
Jumper: "Because my ear beep told me it was time to turn final!"

I eagerly await the invention of the electronic parachute packing machine.

In a few more decades we'll be like that first monkey shot up into space on a rocket, strapped down and helpless, while automated gizmos took care of everything. Yeah, that'll be fun.


Next up is the ACCD (Anti Canopy Collision Device).

A bunch of infrared based proximity detectors attached throughout your jump suit. When it detects that a canopy collision is imminent it sends a strong electric shock to your ass.:)

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Someone mentioned their friends and gps that won't go on a trip w/o it! I think of a current tv commercial of the old timers listening to their gps all the way to the edge of a cliff..... i got the jest of the other thread by reading all of this one! BAD IDEA i say! I would't trade my one on one conversations with my instructors, later my fellow uP jumPers for ALL the gizmos in the world and with pay! And if jumPers aren't going to listen to the "old timers" and or the eXperienced younger ones, then they need to be shown the door! But HEY, the current INCIDENT ratio is not favoring the noobs! Lot of eXp jumPers going in that shouldn't! Anyone ever forget their altimeter and or audible on a load before? That was such a learning eXperience that i did it again on purpose just to further my training! ;P DISCLAIMER to the "newbies" and complacent jumPer, don't do it if yer not the focusing type! And i'm not referring to yer vidcams or still cameras! There are things one cannot learn from a book.

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>You mean like relying on your speedometer as you drive across town so
>you don't get a ticket for speeding?

More like relying on your speedometer so you can stop in time and avoid a grisly death. If you really do that, you probably shouldn't be driving, either.

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What a bunch of cunts.


Read the fucking article before you sound off like you know what you're saying.

It's dickheads like you that do more harm than people like me who exceed WL limits.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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not replying to DocPops 'cause that will likely be deleted, but from reading most of the comments in this thread it would appear not many people actually DID read the article.

I have no issue with it, B Germain is no idiot and what he suggests in the artcile is by no means stupid.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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It is a tool to help someone who has already built the skills and experienced needed in canopy flight to further refine their abilities. My Mark1Mod0 eyeball has saved my life on a number of swoops over the years. You have to build that site picture over time and no amount of beeping in your ear will save your life like your eye balls can!


Isn't that what I just said? Wouldn't it be easier to get the "site picture"[sic] if there is some consistent way of knowing what altitude you're actually at?

What I find laughable is that you and the OP think that a simple altitude beep will somehow turn someone into a blithering idiot. Skydivers were turning into *beep*ing idiots long before anything started beeping.

--
It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

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k i read it! I agree with most of BG put down. I also with sac in that an eXtra tool might not turn jumPers into blithering idiots. However, i wouldn't put it to use on a student till they pass their A exam! And this device IS not for me. I witnessed 3 or 4 shouts from one jumPer to another that wasn't saying attention on final @150' in the spectator area @ the 2k6 WFFC. The audible would NOT have "changed" anything! One jumPer was saying attention by rubbernecking and the other(s) were FIXATED on their target. Valid points are well made by Brian! Won't argue this, but a beep device for use as mentioned in the article Will not cure canopy collisions. Non complacicay under canopy, proper separation after breakoff and then deployment and head on a swivel will always be the steadfast rules for SAFE freefall, canopy flight and landing! But i do like the the laser beam idea if you get too close to another jumPer to where you get butt burned by some kind of zappy thing that will be mandated by the FAA soon

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not replying to DocPops 'cause that will likely be deleted, but from reading most of the comments in this thread it would appear not many people actually DID read the article.

I have no issue with it, B Germain is no idiot and what he suggests in the artcile is by no means stupid.



Except that the message gets lost of time and it becomes the norm that you "need" to have an audible to land.

I seriously think that he missed an opportunity with his article. He talked about landing stress, a lower wingloading is going to be a better way to reduce stress than an audible.

* I realise that I am a 100 jump wonder telling a guy with 13k jumps what to say:P. Don't get me wrong I love all the new toys that have made it into skydiving since my first jump, and possibly more than anyone else I know how much less stressful it is to jump with the reminders and extra safety nets.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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not replying to DocPops 'cause that will likely be deleted, but from reading most of the comments in this thread it would appear not many people actually DID read the article.

I have no issue with it, B Germain is no idiot and what he suggests in the artcile is by no means stupid.



Except that the message gets lost of time and it becomes the norm that you "need" to have an audible to land.
.



If it does get "lost in time" that's not the fault of the gadget, but the operator As is often the case already.

WAY too many people skydiver who really shouldn't.
They don't take it seriously enough and regard the safety of themselves and other flippantly
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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as BG puts it, aviationists have been relying on instruments since the dawn of human flight; why do skydivers think they're any different?

of course, you shouldnt follow them blindly, as in aviation, that has led to numberous accidents, killing hundreds at once at times..
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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If it does get "lost in time" that's not the fault of the gadget, but the operator As is often the case already.

WAY too many people skydiver who really shouldn't.
They don't take it seriously enough and regard the safety of themselves and other flippantly



Sadly, I agree with this Squeak.
I dunno, maybe it was my Daddy and his big belt who drilled personal responsibility and self-sufficiency into me. I find it hard to relinquish control of my life to an outside influence when I can do the job myself.

But that's just me.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Isn't that what I just said? Wouldn't it be easier to get the "site picture"[sic] if there is some consistent way of knowing what altitude you're actually at?

What I find laughable is that you and the OP think that a simple altitude beep will somehow turn someone into a blithering idiot. Skydivers were turning into *beep*ing idiots long before anything started beeping.

--



It isn't that I *think* it will happen, it is that I've *seen* exactly that happen!

In fact the last one on my mind had a conversation that went something like this:

Me: "Why did you turn where you did?"
TG: "My time to turn alarm went off."


We then had a long conversation about using patterns to you at your turn altitude window over the right place, instead of waiting for alarms to turn. How to adjust that pattern, etc. Luckily this guy was not hurt, this time.

(TG is short for "That Guy").
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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as BG puts it, aviationists have been relying on instruments since the dawn of human flight; why do skydivers think they're any different?



There are lots of differences. Aircraft have two sources of data, the static port and the pitot tube, so if one fails, the other will still provide information. Aircraft also have two power sources for their instruments, electric and vacuum, so if one of them fails, the other will still provide power. This is why pilots can rely on their instruments, double redundancy built into the airframe.

All that aside, pilots are first trained for non-instrument flight. The basic private pilot certificate does not involve relying on the instruments for safe flght. They are limited to flying in conditions where they can see where they're going.

Instrument flying, where the pilots rely on the instruments, is another story. It's another rating for a pilot to earn, and it's a bitch to earn. It takes a significant amount of study, and some pilots feel it's harder to upgrade to an instrument rating than it is to earn a private pilot certificate in the first place. Beyond that, the aircraft itself requires additional equipment above and beyond the double redundant intruments I mentioned above for a pilot to be legally allowed to fly it in conditions where they can't see where they're going.

Pilots and skydivers are two different things. There are some similarities, and some cases where comparisons can be made, but this isn't one of them. Flying a parachute is stone-simple in comparison to flying a plane, and if you need an instrument to do it safely, that's not a good sign.

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Isn't that what I just said? Wouldn't it be easier to get the "site picture"[sic] if there is some consistent way of knowing what altitude you're actually at?

What I find laughable is that you and the OP think that a simple altitude beep will somehow turn someone into a blithering idiot. Skydivers were turning into *beep*ing idiots long before anything started beeping.

--



It isn't that I *think* it will happen, it is that I've *seen* exactly that happen!

In fact the last one on my mind had a conversation that went something like this:

Me: "Why did you turn where you did?"
TG: "My time to turn alarm went off."


We then had a long conversation about using patterns to you at your turn altitude window over the right place, instead of waiting for alarms to turn. How to adjust that pattern, etc. Luckily this guy was not hurt, this time.

(TG is short for "That Guy").





Of course it happens, in another thread a poster talks about the time he waited until 1500' before he realized his audible was either not on or wasn't working.


In our sport instruments are tools to assist, not something to bet the farm on. I'd rather have an instrument or two tell me I did what I'm supposed to at the right time...not tell me it's time to do something.

I've been doing this for a while, I've had instruments fail...not so with the Mk.1 Mod 0 eyeball.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Isn't that what I just said? Wouldn't it be easier to get the "site picture"[sic] if there is some consistent way of knowing what altitude you're actually at?

What I find laughable is that you and the OP think that a simple altitude beep will somehow turn someone into a blithering idiot. Skydivers were turning into *beep*ing idiots long before anything started beeping.

--



It isn't that I *think* it will happen, it is that I've *seen* exactly that happen!

In fact the last one on my mind had a conversation that went something like this:

Me: "Why did you turn where you did?"
TG: "My time to turn alarm went off."


We then had a long conversation about using patterns to you at your turn altitude window over the right place, instead of waiting for alarms to turn. How to adjust that pattern, etc. Luckily this guy was not hurt, this time.

(TG is short for "That Guy").





Of course it happens, in another thread a poster talks about the time he waited until 1500' before he realized his audible was either not on or wasn't working.


In our sport instruments are tools to assist, not something to bet the farm on. I'd rather have an instrument or two tell me I did what I'm supposed to at the right time...not tell me it's time to do something.

I've been doing this for a while, I've had instruments fail...not so with the Mk.1 Mod 0 eyeball.


Which brings me back to my previous point, it's not the gadgets at fault here.

Just because you Can skydive does not mean you SHOULD

Too many people not enough CDF
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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