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Grayhawk

Altitude awareness

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So I'll be blunt at the risk of getting roasted for this. (I'm a Veteran I can take anything you can give me and I deserve every bit of it for this).
Failed my IAF level 4 for not pulling my chute at 5500'.
I did what I was supposed to as far as everything else, I'm stable, I can do the 90 deg turns with precision, Circles of Awareness, hand signals, everything is good to go according to my instructor. except the most important thing there is.... But looking at the analog altimeter, there's a disconnect in my brain, I see the altitude and It doesn't register as being a number. It's just a number 9 or 7 or 6, no meaning. It's hard to explain.
I was thinking about just using a digital altimeter(with DZ clearance first), as I'm a child of the digital age and it would more likely register in a different way for me.
I also ran across the training version of the altimeter which I could use on the ground to train myself to react to the dial faster. Any ideas?

I don't have a death wish, and I broke rule number 1 on my first IAF. Of course I cancelled my 2 other jumps that day because I was pretty upset at myself. (I could rant for a while about this. )

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Grayhawk

Of course I cancelled my 2 other jumps that day because I was pretty upset at myself. ( )

well right there is your problem grasshopper. Get right back on the horse. :S
i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .


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I too used to find reading the analogue altimeter somewhat non-intuitive. I think that for me personally reading a digital altimeter is quicker and requires less thought, so that may also be the case for you. In the beginning I just memorized where the pull point is, and didn't actually read and register what my altitude was (this is not an advice, just sharing my story). After 6-7 free fall jumps I got used to it. Now I am happy with my digital altimeter.

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It's just a number 9 or 7 or 6, no meaning. It's hard to explain.



With more jumps you will develop intuition about this, and won't have to consciously think about it much. Same way as you know that 70mph is highway speed and 100F is a hot day without doing arithmetic (unless you were spoiled by growing up with a sane system for measurement like I am:)).


You made a mistake and you will make more, we all will. You picked up on it early and didn't miss the opportunity to learn from it. Pulling at the correct altitude is very important, but it is something you can learn to do. So talk to your instructors, pay special attention to altitude awareness, and go make some more jumps. And have fun :)

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This sounds like part of your problem may be sensory overload. Although this will pass with more jumps, one thing to try in the meantime might be drilling and visualisation.

Practice looking at your alti set to different heights and thinking about what it means for your skydive. Do this a lot. In particular, practice looking at it at your "lock on" height and really noticing, thinking, it's time to get ready to pull. Then change it to pull height and really burn that into your mind thinking, it's time time to pull. The number is not so important, but what you need to do in response is.

The training altimeter might be just the thing.

Also, what keithbar said. Less self-beating-up, more horse-getting-back-on.
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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I had trouble reading the altimeter at first as well. It was bouncing around a lot and I just could not focus on it. I learned (while on the ground) where the numbers were and then looked (in freefall) for where the needle was pointing. I would check the altitude, not to read the number, but to see where the needle was pointing. When it was pointing at 5 o'clock (there about), it was time to go.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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Here's another thought for you -- digest it as you will; it's free advice so it might be worth what you pay for it. When I started in the bad old days there were no digitals and no dyters. My instructor used to cover my altimeter on the way to altitude and say, how hi are we? He was training me to look out the plexiglass door and capture the size of the landscape. Pretty soon you get to be plus or minus a couple of hundred feet. The reason for this is not just altitude awareness but training yourself to never ever rely completely on an instrument. They're just aids. As you're accumulating jumps you'll see what the landscape looks like at pull altitude and your inner clock will tell you that it's getting late -- check your altimeter. Train yourself to trust looking at the ground as well as the dials (digital or otherwise). And if it's coming up fast, you have ground rush and you're probably approach two grand or lower.
SCR-442, SCS-202, CCR-870, SOS-1353

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keithbar

*** Of course I cancelled my 2 other jumps that day because I was pretty upset at myself. ( )

well right there is your problem grasshopper. Get right back on the horse. :S


I can admit to having the issue of beating myself up when I fail something. I'll be kicking my own rear end for this this whole week. I'll say this though, I will NOT make the same mistake this Saturday. I will pass, and failure is unacceptable.
I'm taking all your suggestions and using them. All day at work all I can see in my head is that altimeter. Lol.

I appreciate all your responses. Thank you all for taking the time to try and help me out.

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Grayhawk

Failed my IAF level 4 for not pulling my chute at 5500'.



So I'll risk being the nagging grump, but might as well try to weed it out early: there's no such thing as "chute" other than in "pilot chute". Just "pulling" or "pitching" is enough, or if you really want to be specific, you can add "my main". And to describe the equipment, either "parachute" or "canopy" is appropriate. But talking about "chutes" is the reserve of whuffos, really.

And as concerns the altimeter, digital for life for me. There's a school of thinking that analogues are somehow inherently easier to read for all students, which is bullshit. It's easier to read for students who find analogues easier to read, and plenty of people have an easier time reading digital displays, including me. I think in terms of numbers, I talk about numbers, I set my dytter to a specific number, so why the hell should it be easier for me to involve a shaky, imprecise arrow on a crudely marked dial in the process? It's not. I was relieved the day I got to jump my Viso and could finally go straight to numbers, and I suspect you will be too.
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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Skydiving feels like controlled chaos and I find it really helps when I read things out loud to myself. By saying the number out loud I force my mind to not skip the number because I have to actually read it in order to say it, not just glance at a meaningless number.

I'm really new to skydiving so I haven't tried a digital altimeter but I like analog because I can watch it wind down instead of just seeing a number displayed.

But seriously try saying things out loud. Your brain has a tendency to think faster than you can keep up with so this forces you to slow down and think :) Good luck!

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Grayhawk

I'll say this though, I will NOT make the same mistake this Saturday. I will pass, and failure is unacceptable.
I'm taking all your suggestions and using them. All day at work all I can see in my head is that altimeter. Lol.



So no pressure, huh? :)
Skydiving is first and foremost something we do for fun. Remember that and relax. It will help you achieving the goals you set yourself on your jumps.
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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First off, no "roasting." You had a problem and are asking for help.

Second off, quit beating yourself up. You made a mistake, that's what students do. Learn from it and move forward. Besides, this is an 'eye-opening' kind of error. It generally leaves a big impression. Which means you are less likely to repeat it.

You aren't the first one to do this.

It sounds more like a "sensory overload" thing than a "presentation" thing (analog vs digital). You said you saw the numbers but they didn't register as a value. You say it's hard to explain, but it makes perfect sense to me (been there, done that).

What helped me was to correlate the "number" on the altimeter with the "value" of the height above the ground. The best way for me to do that was on the way up in the plane (as was described above).

Look at the alti, say the number out loud, look out the window and see the height.

Do the same thing on the jump (nobody can hear you, but say the number out loud in freefall too). Look at the alti, say the number, take a quick look at the ground (although I have to admit it took me a fair number of jumps before I was able to see any detail on the ground).

As with everything else on here, run it past your instructors before doing it in the air.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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I can admit to having the issue of beating myself up when I fail something. I'll be kicking my own rear end for this this whole week. I'll say this though, I will NOT make the same mistake this Saturday. I will pass, and failure is unacceptable.



You didn't fail. You unsuccessfully completed the tasks you are expected to perform. "Failure" is the end product of giving up on something you wish to achieve, never to revisit the situation again and possibly become successful.

"Failure" is a pretty drastic negative word and it seems you let the negative part stop you from your other jumps that day, possibly successful jumps.

My advise, lose the "fail" word. If the word has been engrained in you as a word to describe unsuccessful, look at it this way. F.A.I.L. First Attempt In Learning.

Be safe, be happy.

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bdawk

They give students digital altimeters to learn at my dz. If you are ultimately going to end up with one, see what you instructors think about you moving to one now.

Good advice there. I'm a child of the analog age, from clocks to speedometers, altimeters and bathroom scales. I don't understand some people's problem with analog scales, but I know it exists. So get what works for you. But maybe some more practice might overcome this difficulty. Good luck to you. :)

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I recently completed my AFF, and also had a hard time reading the analog altimeter. I realized on jump 6 or so what my brain was doing. When the needle goes around the bottom and starts moving up and not down, my brain didn't adjust. So on the left side, just above 8 is 8.5, but on the right side, just above 4 is 3.5 NOT 4.5. This is so dumb, but I honestly read halfway up and not down.
After I realized my stupid mistake I found it much easier to read. I've ordered a digital and waiting for it at the moment.

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I know plenty of jumpers as new or newer than me who chose analogues. There is probably some difference in percentages across generations, but ultimately it's probably a matter of personal preference, the same way some people best understand things when they hear them, and others prefer it in writing.
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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I'm considered young by some (not so young by others). Either way, I prefer analog when others my age insist on digital. I second guess digital all the time. I don't second guess my analog altimeter. I vote people use whatever works best for them.

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JohnMitchell

I grew up in an analog world. Do you think this is a generational thing?



More than likely.

You are old enough to remember when the "glass cockpit" first was introduced. They did "oodles and boodles" of research and found that displaying "needle and dial" gauges on the panel was "best."
Everyone they tested was able to read and interpret those faster and more accurately than a digital display.

But then, everyone they tested had been "reading and interpreting" needles and dials their entire life.

Fast forward a generation, and all "them younguns" have been reading and interpreting digital displays their entire life.

Further research shows that most of the differences disappear.

I did a quick search for the research results, but can't find it right now. But this isn't SC, so I hope you'll trust me on this. ;)
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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One point I've seen made is that, although we're living in the 21st century, we still have our "caveman" brains from millennia past. Our brains don't interpret numbers and figures as quickly as positional relationships, angles, and proportions.

"Needle's approaching the red part! Better pull."

Not sure how true this is. Just one opinion I've read.

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I vote people use whatever works best for them.



I agree with that statement right from the start. I did write an article a couple of years ago that speaks to analog vs. digital displays. Y'all may find that of interest.

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I second guess digital all the time. I don't second guess my analog altimeter.



I find this comment particularly interesting, and an opportunity to elaborate on mechanical altimeter mechanisms vs. solid state electronic pressure sensors in mechanical altimeters.

First let's take a look at their range. Using our own electronic altimeters as a reference (Atlas, N3, N3 Audio, all Neptune variants, MA-12 and MA-10), their operational range extends up to 40,000 FT Mean Sea Level (MSL). By comparison, the operational range of our Galaxy, Galaxy Extreme, and Altimaster II is up to 18,000 FT MSL. Since most skydivers don't venture up to those altitudes, this rarely comes into play.

The most important difference is accuracy. Our electronic pressure sensor has a maximum error of 19 feet at 10,000 FT MSL. The mechanism in our sport mechanicals has a max error of of 47 feet at that altitude. At 2,000 FT MSL, the errors are 15 feet & 30 feet respectively.

Electronic pressure sensors also maintain their accuracy over a longer period of time. I have an original Neptune, built in 2003, which still meets to quality standards for accuracy we use for brand new products. Our electronic altimeters don't need to be periodically chamber tested for accuracy, nor re-calibrated - the pressure sensor is calibrated at the factory when it's made. Mechanical mechanisms may eventually fall out of calibration and require testing and maintenance.

And that's just mechanisms . . .

Speaking of displays, a numeric digital display shows just that - digits. As long as you can read "10.0" - no matter the viewing angle - you know your altitude. With analog displays, parallax comes into play. Viewed directly over the pointer, you will read "10" correctly. At an angle, you may read something different. The flatter the viewing angle, the worse it gets.

Additionally, at very high free fall speeds mechanical/analog users may notice the pointer "shimmy" making it a bit more difficult to read accurately. Digits don't shimmy ;)

There are a lot more "pros and cons," but I echo your original comment - it's all about what works best for you. Hopefully this helps equip everyone who reads it make an informed decision.
Alti-2, Inc. Staff

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Just to clarify, I don't second guess the accuracy of an digital alti. I understand how gauges work, I understand calibrations and offsets. I live with this daily as a robotics engineer.
I also know thatvwhen I quickly glance at something digital and then away again I often have to stop and think "wait! Was that a six or an eight? Maybe a five?" it takes longer for my brain to process, for whatever reason.
My caveman-like brain can quickly interpret the bigass clockface on my Galaxy without giving it conscious thought.

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Moosie



......Was that a six or an eight? Maybe a five?
..........



Exactly.
you can read a traditional clock just by seeing the needles.
Works from long distances and short, check it with a watch even without numbers on it....
Imagine a towerclock would show digits , could you read it from a distance?...
With digits, you see numbers and you have to understand that....
At an analog one, if the needle goes to red it´s time for alert....

Not to get me wrong, I use my Viso as well. but I do not usually check my altitude during freefall very often. The digital Altimeter is small and I can wear it with a sleeve, that fits best to my type of jumps.

For the angle of view onto an analog altimeter, that is right.
It depends on the way how you look at it.
But then you may train to look at your device in a proper way or mount it where the position is good to see (cheststrap?).

By the way, if it comes to accuracy in measurements, you can have both with an Altitrack. It has some nice additional features too ...
--------------------------------------------------

With sufficient thrust,
pigs just fly well

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