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Csaber 0
Dear All,
Please stop it, dont phuckin bullshhit and say stupid opinion untill you guys know the details from somone who was there and can inform the comuntity by fisrt hand.
The guy who died this saturday (name: Zsiros Csaba) was very experienced jumper with 490 Base jumps and more than 1000 skydives. He was the champion of the first Hungarian Base contest in 2004.
At the fatal jump from LM, he exited backwards, did his arial too long, and the time he started trackin was too close to the positive part of the wall. He started trackin, realized he is very close and pulled. He hit the wall during canopy inflation and probably died immedietly in impact. His canopy fully inflated, after the impact and he flied out to the landing, looked like his ok, but he landed dead.
The guys who he jumped with were also experienced jumpers, with more than 100 jumps (dont know exactly but surely over 100). The slider down exit was done by one of them, beacuse to film the other guys durin freefall, after opening. All of them knew very well what they are doing.
None of them speaks english at all, so who was there might misunderstood what they said on top and ground. The handheld guy was surely kidding with "first jump".
Take everyone the consequence for himself, and please next time for everybodies interest dont say stupid theories untill you knew exatcly what happaned.
He was a very good friend and amazing person. Everyone loved him so much. I cant find the word how deeply I am depressed, my heart is breaking.
Fly free Csabi, you will be missed forever.
Csaber
Please stop it, dont phuckin bullshhit and say stupid opinion untill you guys know the details from somone who was there and can inform the comuntity by fisrt hand.
The guy who died this saturday (name: Zsiros Csaba) was very experienced jumper with 490 Base jumps and more than 1000 skydives. He was the champion of the first Hungarian Base contest in 2004.
At the fatal jump from LM, he exited backwards, did his arial too long, and the time he started trackin was too close to the positive part of the wall. He started trackin, realized he is very close and pulled. He hit the wall during canopy inflation and probably died immedietly in impact. His canopy fully inflated, after the impact and he flied out to the landing, looked like his ok, but he landed dead.
The guys who he jumped with were also experienced jumpers, with more than 100 jumps (dont know exactly but surely over 100). The slider down exit was done by one of them, beacuse to film the other guys durin freefall, after opening. All of them knew very well what they are doing.
None of them speaks english at all, so who was there might misunderstood what they said on top and ground. The handheld guy was surely kidding with "first jump".
Take everyone the consequence for himself, and please next time for everybodies interest dont say stupid theories untill you knew exatcly what happaned.
He was a very good friend and amazing person. Everyone loved him so much. I cant find the word how deeply I am depressed, my heart is breaking.
Fly free Csabi, you will be missed forever.
Csaber
That's a totaly diffrent story then .
evilivan 0
QuoteThat's a totaly diffrent story then .
And a beautiful demonstration of the value of speculation and assumption; two pages of opinionated posts dedicated to something that didn't happen. I love these forums.
Edited for spelling
"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent
David Brent
sabre210 0
Absolutely.
The comments, speculation and assumptions here are wrong, wrong, wrong.
The hungarian guys were fun, polite, courteous and highly likeable jumpers, Csabi seemed a very experienced, and having watched his penultimate jump from the exit point at LM, i can say, very skilled jumper.
Language barriers undoubtedly have played a large part in propagating some of the misinformation posted here.
ian
The comments, speculation and assumptions here are wrong, wrong, wrong.
The hungarian guys were fun, polite, courteous and highly likeable jumpers, Csabi seemed a very experienced, and having watched his penultimate jump from the exit point at LM, i can say, very skilled jumper.
Language barriers undoubtedly have played a large part in propagating some of the misinformation posted here.
ian
gus 1
Comments like this:
...and this:
...and all the crap TVPB has now edited out are absolutely fucking disgraceful and the posters should be ashamed of themselves. This man is not even in the ground and yet he and his friends are being publically slated by people who know fuck all about the situation. It's sickening.
Gus
QuoteHis two buddies must be a bit dodgy to go and dispatch him off a rock on his first jumps ever... That's just stupid!
...and this:
Quotethe evasive behavior of the 2 "experienced" jumpers would indicate they KNEW they were cutting corners.
it's sad that people repeat these mistakes. it lends credibility to Darwin...
...and all the crap TVPB has now edited out are absolutely fucking disgraceful and the posters should be ashamed of themselves. This man is not even in the ground and yet he and his friends are being publically slated by people who know fuck all about the situation. It's sickening.
Gus
OutpatientsOnline.com
TVPB 0
I put a disclaimer in when I posted as I saw the potential for incorrect information. I also stated that my comments were based on the comments in the thread and not the actual incident itself.
I posted because there has been too many of these situations that have actually occurred in very recent times. The world does not seem to learn.
I deleted because the right thing to do was wait until real data / info was supplied. Upon rethinking, I decided that it was too insensitive and inappropriate to post in the thread concerned. I apologise for the timing of my post, the content and it's mistaken context, the fact that it is linked to the persons involved, and for posting in this particular thread.
But I don't apologise for the general philosophy behind the comments I made. Whilst they are most probably not relevant or appropriate to the incident concerned, on a broader level, they are appropriate to some segments of the general jumping community.
For those involved in the incident, and the friends and families of the deceased, apologies and my sincerest condolences.
For all others, Stay Safe.
I posted because there has been too many of these situations that have actually occurred in very recent times. The world does not seem to learn.
I deleted because the right thing to do was wait until real data / info was supplied. Upon rethinking, I decided that it was too insensitive and inappropriate to post in the thread concerned. I apologise for the timing of my post, the content and it's mistaken context, the fact that it is linked to the persons involved, and for posting in this particular thread.
But I don't apologise for the general philosophy behind the comments I made. Whilst they are most probably not relevant or appropriate to the incident concerned, on a broader level, they are appropriate to some segments of the general jumping community.
For those involved in the incident, and the friends and families of the deceased, apologies and my sincerest condolences.
For all others, Stay Safe.
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck
The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.
The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.
maretus 0
QuoteThis man is not even in the ground and yet he and his friends are being publically slated by people who know fuck all about the situation. It's sickening.
Yeah, I think this thread proves that we all should first hear the facts and after that make our conclusions and post our comments on the incident. The fact here is that the Hungarians lost a brother and we should all respect their loss. Hungarians are cool guys and absolutely fun to hang around with.
Csaber and rest of the Hungarians, the finnish crew mourns with you guys, our condolences to family and friends !
The only thing that there is to say about this fatality (in my opinion) is that it again underlines the nature of La Mousse. It is high and you can take long delays but it is underhung. As it has being said in the list already in year 2001 "Just a few words about this site La Mousse. It is high and you can fly 9 to 10 seconds if you track like hell. But the pure vertical is not more than 6 seconds." Doing aerials off it leaves you with very small margin for error, from my point of view there are far more better suitable exits on the valley for doing aeros. I've done maybe 30 jumps off LM and with every jump I gain more and more respect for that wall, it's an awesome jump but it can be deceiving.
Fly free brother and everybody, please be safe in the valley (and everywhere else too) !
http://www.ufufreefly.com
wwarped 0
Quote
Please stop it, dont phuckin bullshhit and say stupid opinion untill you guys know the details from somone who was there and can inform the comuntity by fisrt hand.
apologies. my comments were based on the original posts. several discussed having seen and spoken to the jumpers. those posts indicated that there would be no eyewitness reports posted here...
I later was corrected to point out that cultural differences/language barriers may have created confusion.
I feel for all those who knew him.
I hate that another jumper will be added to the list.
unfortuneately his knowledge, skill, experience, and likability may not matter if Swiss jumpers must fight to keep their valley open...
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse
Mikki_ZH 0
Quote
I was in the valley yesterday. I did not see the jump, we jumped before them. I agree with you that pulling to late or impacting because of poor tracking are two different things. But I think both of them have to do with lack of skills. It was the jumpers second jump (that day), I saw them packing befor the fatal jump and what I have heard is that he did a handheld jump earlier. So I think (but of I don't know it, it is only an assumption) brain look was not the issue. La Mouse is a very dificult jump. BASE1007 said it maybe in a bit a harsh way but throwing a first jumper of La Mouse is the most stupid thing one can do. If you have to do a frist jump in LB do it from Yellow but NEVER from La Mouse or the Nose.
I don't know why these guys did that. I think eather it was massive wrong judgment, extreem stupidity or the just did not have a clue of what they where doing.
I'm afraid that accidents like this will continue. BASE is not the underground thing anymore. Every idiot can buy a BASE Rig, a ticket to Switzerland and find the exits in LB.
Today the media was in LB. I'm sure that if accidents like this continue the valley will be closed for jumping.
I also apology for the underlined bold part in my post. I based my coment on the post of the french forum which apears to be incorect.
However I stand to everthing else in my coment although it is now posted in the wrong tread.
Codolence to the family and the two friends of the dead jumper that were with him.
I have seen the eys of one of the friends after it happend and I never want to see this again... :-(
edit to add:
Sorry also for my english. I'm to lazy to use the spell checker...
Michi (#1068)
hsbc/gba/sba
www.swissbaseassociation.ch
www.michibase.ch
hsbc/gba/sba
www.swissbaseassociation.ch
www.michibase.ch
sabre210 0
Quote
I met a group of 3 hungarians at LM. I spoke with them and they were all euphorical about jumping here.
who isn't
QuoteFrom their speech and the briefing of the jump, I thought that they must have been quite experienced.
they were
QuoteUntil the moment I saw one of the three with his pc in hand
Because you jumped to conclusions.
QuoteI ask him what he is doing. His reply is that it's his 1st BASE jump.
From that cliff. Yes. Perhaps he couldn't articulate in your language or to your understanding what he meant. How many reading this for instance could effectively communicate the fact that they are jumping an object for the first time in German? 'Mein erste springe' perhaps as you point to the exit point?
QuoteHis friends seemed to be saying "mind your own business".
"Seemed" to be saying because you didn't understand their language and because you'd already made some very wrong assumptions which had negatively clouded your opinion of them.
QuoteThey also asked him to come back facing the cliff after opening so that he could film their jump.
I believe this is true, but with the right config, experience etc not an issue.
QuoteI watched it from a distance with a friend. After exit we watched them and they scared us with their poor tracking abilities.
No comment. I wasn't there at the exit point. However, poor abilities....that's subjective. Poor because they didn't make the road?? the landing area?? the tree line?? clear the talus?? clear the ledge??
I'm not trying to bash the french jumper who posted or others who have piped in with their pennies worth, but a lot of assumptions were made there which were very biased and unfair.
A good man and by all informed accounts experienced jumper lost his life on Saturday, and many friends and family were left devastated.
Of course we all want to learn lessons from such a fatality, but at least have the foresight and decency to ensure you've attended the right class before you stick your hand in the air with an opinion.
ian
Yup... this is another standard DORKZONE.COM thread.... I cant believe all the BS that was posted on this thread before you guys really knew what happened. Maybe the speculation on this forum will finally diminish a bit after a few people have to swallow their posts... posting when you dont know didly about the situation is...........
RIP and my deepest condolences to the family.
Dan
RIP and my deepest condolences to the family.
Dan
HISPA 72 ----- "Muff Brother" 3733
evilivan 0
QuoteI cant believe all the BS that was posted on this thread before you guys really knew what happened.
...but that's the internet - the fault isn't with the people jumping to assumptions, but that they took the information on face value to start with.
What the internet community is good for: gradual knowledge growth through constant re-evaluation (e.g. Wikipedia).
What the internet community is bad for: accurate evaluation of very recent events.
People say it again & again: please wait until the facts are posted. I disagree. The only thing a forum is good for is speculation and assumption - and I don't think this is bad in itself, in fact its often entertaining, its just unfortunate that in our world the subject matter is often very emotive e.g. serious injury / death - I include BASE and skydiving in that, as the same thing often happens in the Incidents forum.
Oh well.
"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent
David Brent
321Cya 0
To Csaber and all other guys who posted after him saying that people have been speculating etc.
Yes, you guys are all a bit right. However, I don't think there is a real need to bash some people's post, whether they might have been misplaced or not (perhaps including my own, eventhough not a single line was quoted so far...).
First of all people are free to say and think what they want and post it (that's where forums are for), whether you agree or not with what they say.
Second of all, this is about a fatality and that's when emotions run high from both the people who post immediately before any facts are out and from the ones reacting on that accordingly.
Third point is that a considerable amount of the jumpers who posted immediately are actually local to the valley (including myself) and, as we all know, have seen fatalities happen here more than anywhere else. Not that they own the place or anything, but at least they should have the right to react, discuss and speculate about what happens in their backyard and actually so does anybody else (as long as this happens with respect to the deceased and his family and friends)
Last point I wish to make is that the largest part of the discussion (or speculations as you call it) as I read it was actually about throwing 1st-timers off these kind of walls. It is now a fact that it was not the case here, but it has been in the past and it should not happen ever again. I think a lot of the 'speculators' were making a point out of that, more than about the actual accident itself, which should be a reason for concern.
I feel very sad that another life has been lost in our sport and I hereby send my sincere condolences to the jumper's family and friends...
J.
www.vandrunen.ch
Yes, you guys are all a bit right. However, I don't think there is a real need to bash some people's post, whether they might have been misplaced or not (perhaps including my own, eventhough not a single line was quoted so far...).
First of all people are free to say and think what they want and post it (that's where forums are for), whether you agree or not with what they say.
Second of all, this is about a fatality and that's when emotions run high from both the people who post immediately before any facts are out and from the ones reacting on that accordingly.
Third point is that a considerable amount of the jumpers who posted immediately are actually local to the valley (including myself) and, as we all know, have seen fatalities happen here more than anywhere else. Not that they own the place or anything, but at least they should have the right to react, discuss and speculate about what happens in their backyard and actually so does anybody else (as long as this happens with respect to the deceased and his family and friends)
Last point I wish to make is that the largest part of the discussion (or speculations as you call it) as I read it was actually about throwing 1st-timers off these kind of walls. It is now a fact that it was not the case here, but it has been in the past and it should not happen ever again. I think a lot of the 'speculators' were making a point out of that, more than about the actual accident itself, which should be a reason for concern.
I feel very sad that another life has been lost in our sport and I hereby send my sincere condolences to the jumper's family and friends...
J.
www.vandrunen.ch
Quoteposting when you dont know didly about the situation is...........
I wonder how many incidents wouldn't be reported if it wasn't for "off target" speculating threads/posts.
Do you read anything, anything at all, that could be useful and instructive to anyone reading this thread?
"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."
321Cya 0
QuoteDo you read anything, anything at all, that could be useful and instructive to anyone reading this thread?
Yes. Any newbie jumper might learn from this thread that the Swiss Valley is an advanced jumping site and therefore not suitable for him/her until they are more experienced. And even then it is a site to treat as technically difficult and with respect.
J.
Edited to add.
www.vandrunen.ch
QuoteDo you read anything, anything at all, that could be useful and instructive to anyone reading this thread?
Absolutely.
This fatality almost mirrors Adam Gibson's.
First jump off a technical object. Decent experience but probably over-confidence on their skills or maybe what a human body can and cannot do. Instead of making a conservative jump with a strong launch and a strong track both decided to do an aerobatic start. Both started the track late, both struck the wall in FF.
I don't care how many jumps you have 1 or 1 million, when it is your first time off a new object that on top of being new to you it is known to be very technical, go easy, play conservative, see how far you can get, evaluate the side while in FF in max track, then you can get a better idea of what YOU can do and cannot do. Seeing other jumpers floating the exit, barrel rolling and successfully track away just few feet from the talus does not mean you can do it regardless your experience level. No two jumpers are alike, no two jumps are alike.
There are three things that will kill you in BASE: Inexperience, complacency, and bad luck, the latter is really the least of your concerns if you are fully aware of the former two.
We lost another brother and it sucks, the least we all can do is to learn something from this.
You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points
QuoteQuoteI cant believe all the BS that was posted on this thread before you guys really knew what happened.
...but that's the internet - the fault isn't with the people jumping to assumptions, but that they took the information on face value to start with.
What the internet community is good for: gradual knowledge growth through constant re-evaluation (e.g. Wikipedia).
What the internet community is bad for: accurate evaluation of very recent events.
People say it again & again: please wait until the facts are posted. I disagree. The only thing a forum is good for is speculation and assumption - and I don't think this is bad in itself, in fact its often entertaining, its just unfortunate that in our world the subject matter is often very emotive e.g. serious injury / death - I include BASE and skydiving in that, as the same thing often happens in the Incidents forum.
Oh well.
I cant believe you think this forum is only good for speculation and assumptions. I actually try to learn from hard cold facts and the opinion of people who have far greater experience than me. you just need to be able to sift through the BS and get to the real info.
HISPA 72 ----- "Muff Brother" 3733
Lonnie 0
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Translated:
"Hello everyone
I just got back from Lauterbrunnen last night 17/11/06 at 6pm. I met a group of 3 hungarians at LM. I spoke with them and they were all euphorical about jumping here. From their speech and the briefing of the jump, I thought that they must have been quite experienced. Until the moment I saw one of the three with his pc in hand. I ask him what he is doing. His reply is that it's his 1st BASE jump. His friends seemed to be saying "mind your own business". They also asked him to come back facing the cliff after opening so that he could film their jump. I watched it from a distance with a friend. After exit we watched them and they scared us with their poor tracking abilities. After our jump we got on the road back to France. I hear of this accident through a girlfriend who stayed jumping with them and saw the accident. My best wishes through this challenge to the 2 hungarians and may the one who had bad luck rest in peace."
The last sentence was tweaked a bit since it doesn't translate too well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I took from this, that it was at least his second jump from this object, maybe more, or this guy would have witnessed the accident as well.
NEVER GIVE UP!
sabre210 0
Base Rigger.
I was present at that exit point on his well executed and uneventful penultimate jump. The French jumper posted that they were present on an even earlier jump when he went handheld slider down to film the other two. I'm pretty sure they made 2 of those jumps, which makes the fatal jump probably the 4th from that cliff - which invalidates your point on the whole.
However, the fact does still remain that many jumpers underestimate the positivity of the ledge and talus on this cliff and the actual lack of vertical to play with during aerials. On this you are perfectly correct.
Like i said, there are lessons to be learned but only if you ask the right questions.
This absolutely was NOT his first jump off this cliff. Let's stick to FACTS.
ian
I was present at that exit point on his well executed and uneventful penultimate jump. The French jumper posted that they were present on an even earlier jump when he went handheld slider down to film the other two. I'm pretty sure they made 2 of those jumps, which makes the fatal jump probably the 4th from that cliff - which invalidates your point on the whole.
However, the fact does still remain that many jumpers underestimate the positivity of the ledge and talus on this cliff and the actual lack of vertical to play with during aerials. On this you are perfectly correct.
Like i said, there are lessons to be learned but only if you ask the right questions.
This absolutely was NOT his first jump off this cliff. Let's stick to FACTS.
ian
I stand corrected.
How many junps did he have off this cliff?
How many junps did he have off this cliff?
You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points
Must be fair : my 8th base jump was staubach then the nose and after that LM . Butt al with good tracks and good delays .
If i new then what i new now after 3 years in the sport ( and saw sevveral accidents in the valley , French end Swiss guy lately , ... ) i think i had past that jumps and get somme more expierence .
Most jumpers think is is verry safe out there ( Nice alti's , ... ) butt proven again it is not . Aspecially not for beginners .
Sorry guys butt after seeing the 2 fattal accidents on 1 weekend it is the truth .
Maybe yes it is time to do sommething about this . Butt who am i to say this .
My true condolance for the family left behind .
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