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Mac

BD v TFs FJC

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You are a disgrace to our sport.



Jason, that's a personal attack.

You are central to this discussion, and it's a discussion that I think a lot of us need to have. I'm very reluctant to ban you from this forum for that reason, but please try to restrain yourself.

Regardless of any copyright or other warnings, I will edit future posts of yours that include personal attacks. If you want to sue Dropzone.com over that, I'm sure that Sangiro will be amused.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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All,

This is obviously a discussion that many of us need to have. I'm sure that we can do that without resorting to name calling. Let's try to be adult about this, ok?

Please remember that the Press, as well as family and friends of the deceased, are reading these forums, and conduct yourself accordingly.

If you don't want to see your words reproduced by the media, you're best off not to post them here.

Please have some consideration for family who may be reading this, as well.

I'm going to ride herd on this thread as closely as possible.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Are you saying that Johnny U. and Tom Aiello aren't teaching an appropriate 4 day long BASE FJC?



No they are not. BASE jumping is a hands-on activity. There are no prior jumps in the form of PCA during their corse at the BD unlike the ones they conduct in TW.



Although it may seem odd, I agree with you. My Bridge Day FJC includes a lecture on the differences between the Bridge Day course and the Twin Falls course (primarily that there are 12-15 more jumps made in Twin, but some other things, too). I also offer discounts to students from Bridge Day who wish to seek additional training in Twin Falls.

My Bridge Day course does include all the classroom and pre-jump material I cover in Twin Falls. It's unfortunately not possible to include all the jumps (although I'm hopeful that Jason will win his battle with the NPS to get us 3 days of jumping, and that will help things immensely). There is also a certain amount of reformatting to meet the scheduling requirements of Bridge Day, which may (or may not, depending on how you learn) make it more difficult to retain some material.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Hi Mac,

I'm not sure how much anyone can change how you feel about this incident. Brian's best friend, Mike Pelkey has gone on these forums and stated that Brian and only Brian is responsible. Jean has stated that she told him not to jump, but that he ignored her request. Bridge Day does not have a currency requirement, just an experience requirementl; 50 skydives. Brain met that requirement, and according to Mike, he also spent significant time and effort (losing 80#s) to prepare for this jump. He felt the need to make this jump and probably didn't think that he would die making it. It was a significant anniversary of a special event in his life, and he chose how to celebrate it. He made that decision, and it is not yours, mine, or even his family's (though they apparently opposed it) to second guess.

Bridge Day is an opportunity to jump that is available to those who meet the requirements. It is unique in that many folks who may not otherwise want to or have the opportunity to jump, can. The jump coordinator, staff, and volunteers now, or in the past have never claimed that BD jumps were safe, or that they carefully screened each jumpers skills, currency, mental stabilty, and physical capabilities. It is each jumpers personal choice to evaluate the jump, and decide for themselves if they are up to it. This is the way of base, in fact its very essence.

Thank you again to Mike Pelkey for stating the obvious truth to those who seek to point fingers and place blame. Brian was a good man, he made his choice, accepted the possible outcomes, and he stepped off the platform for his own reasons. He will be remembered by all who knew and loved him for the good person that he was.

"The memories of a man in his old age, are the deeds of a man in his prime" Pink Floyd

BSBD

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A few thoughts on this:

1) Jason Bell does a fantastic job organizing Bridge Day. He also tries to help people as much as he can around the event. I believe he tried to help Brian to jump in exactly the same way he would have helped anyone else. I've seen him go so far as to offer his personal gear to a first time jumper (someone who you've never heard of, and neither had he, who wasn't famous in the sport, or a big time skydiver, or anyone else). I do not believe that he did anything for Brian that he wouldn't have (and hasn't) done for anyone else.


2) Many people seem to want to apportion blame for this accident. I think that's both pointless and misguided. This is BASE jumping. Accidents happen. Sometimes we can avoid them, and sometimes we can learn from them. We are never going to eliminate them. I think we should all try to take what lessons we can from a tragic incident, and not try to learn lessons that really aren't there, and move on.


3) Probably everyone here knows that Johnny Utah and I don't get along on a personal level. So, take heed when I say this. Johnny did everything humanly possible to help Mike and Brian prepare for their jumps. He went above and beyond the call of duty, without asking for or receiving compensation, to try to help them achieve their dreams in as much safety as practicable. He acted in the best spirit of BASE traditions, as a more experienced jumper trying to help less experienced ones to follow their dreams, counseling and guiding them toward as safe a course as possible, while understanding that their own spirits would call them to do what they must.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Two wrongs don't make a right Jason.



Craig, you aren't helping this either.




Craig Poxon (cpoxon) is a moderator on Dropzone.com. This means that Sangiro, the owner of the site, trusts his judgment and feels that he understands both the unwritten ethos and written rules of this community. If he tells you that your post is over the line, he is probably right. Although I will use my judgment in moderating this forum, the odds are that I am going to agree with him the majority of the time, in the same way that the odds are that Sangiro will usually agree with my decisions.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Tom, you did make good points.

However, is there anything you'd like to add or elaborate so accidents like these one won't happen again?

This was not the case of an intentional low pull, a stunt gone wrong, a hard landing.
You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points

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Why do people get annoyed with FJCs that are seen as "death camps" from Twin Falls, when basically Bridge Day offers the same exact thing for hundreds of people?




The "death camps" in Twin Falls involve people who have never been under a parachute before. That's different by a large margin from people with 50 skydives.

I'm not saying I'm entirely comfortable with tossing someone with 51 skydives off the NRGB for a stowed 5 second slider up jump, but I'm quite a bit more comfortable with that than putting someone with zero skydives off the bridge here for a 2 second hand held delay.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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fair point.... nicely put and what I am trying to get from this thread.... there is no need to threaten me with violence (as others have) there is no point in saying I am anti BASE (those that actually know me know different) I am just trying to get truth and sense from something I feel was unnecessary....

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Regardless of any copyright or other warnings, I will edit future posts of yours that include personal attacks. If you want to sue Dropzone.com over that, I'm sure that Sangiro will be amused.



My copyright at the bottom of my post was only meant to scare off the media. They have already misquoted me, cussed me, and hung up on me when I referred their questions to the Bridge Day Commission (as per BD protocol).

Feel free to edit my posts if you want, Tom. Your "sue dropzone.com" comment was a bit misguided, don't you think? I'm just trying to keep the media monkeys from picking my posts apart, but I also felt I needed to say something.

I'm done here for now. I've said what was on my mind. If anyone wants to offer some constructive criticism or tips so that BASE and Bridge Day will be safer, then I will join the discussion.

You know, if the Birdman would have went it, we'd be discussing why we allowed wingsuits or why we didn't check wingsuit logbooks. Or if an experienced jumper died trying 5 front flips, we'd be talking about banning anything over 4 flips. Or if someone bounced on a 7 way, we'd be criticized over the number of jumpers we allow at one time.

Someone once said, "There is no honor among thieves". Some BASE jumpers are simply thieves with a parachute on their back.

My sincere condolences to Brian's family. I can only hope that we will all work together to prevent future incidents such as this. If you have suggestions for improving safety at Bridge Day and other sites, please email me privately. Thank you.
(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

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To get people to be truthful and actually accept "personal resposibility".... that is what BASE is about



All hail Mac, the mighty champion of truth and personal responsibility and model for all! What a crock of shit!

As you well know, the "personal responsibility" that BASE is supposedly about refers to the person stepping off the edge being completely and 100% responsible for his or her own fate. But that doesn't fit with your agenda, which is to slag people you perceive to be (and resent as) "BASE Gods." So instead, you try to take the BASE mantra of personal responsibilty and turn it around and use it to suggest that it was NOT Brian's fault and he was NOT responsible for what happened. Rather, it was the ORGANIZERS' fault and THEY are responsible for Brian's demise. That is utterly absurd and completely the opposite of what personal responsibility in the BASE context has historically meant.

Every other time the concept of "personal responsibility" has come up in connection with a BASE fatality, it has been used as a shield by BASE jumpers to fend off attacks from non-jumpers coming in after the fact and trying to blame someone else for the death of their loved one. This is the first time I have seen a BASE jumper try to use it to absolve the deceased of responsibility for his own fate and lay the blame on others. Absolutely ABSURD, not to mention completely hypocritical.

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However, is there anything you'd like to add or elaborate so accidents like these one won't happen again?



I've been thinking about that. However, I'm not going to post a list in a public forum, especially under these circumstances. I can just imagine the Sunday Times article "Tom Aiello says that Bridge Day should change X, Y and Z..."

It's probably more productive to think those things over and then send your suggestions to Jason, since he's the one who's going to have to make decisions about what changes (if any) to make in the way things are run.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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PMd you...

you really have missed my point....

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Weird, everyone is always bitching about personal freedom and how it is essential to the either the civilised world (or, more specifically, the sport of BASE) Then, when someone gets hurt by accident, there's always someone who has to pay or who's responsible for. It's quite paradoxical how some people pinch a proud tear away when they think about "the land of the free" and at the same time have a sue-or-be-sued (sorta speek) mentality even when it comes to freak accidents.

(edit. I take back what I put beween these brackets)

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A few thoughts on this:
snip snip...guiding them toward as safe a course as possible, while understanding that their own spirits would call them to do what they must.



Brian made an appointment long ago, before any of us were born, to be at a certain place, at a certain time.
Being the good man that he was, he made his appointment, exactly on time.
I don't feel he'd be pleased that others were arguing over HIS choices, regardless of how WE feel about them.

Now he's trailblazing for us on the other side, and I personally look forward to having him 'show me around' the place when it's my turn.

359
"Now I've settled down,
in a quiet little town,
and forgot about everything"

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You know, if the Birdman would have went it, we'd be discussing why we allowed wingsuits or why we didn't check wingsuit logbooks. Or if an experienced jumper died trying 5 front flips, we'd be talking about banning anything over 4 flips. Or if someone bounced on a 7 way, we'd be criticized over the number of jumpers we allow at one time



I disagree.

There is a difference between showing off a stunt, intentionally pull low, being in a complex jump and just pure and simple brain-locking due to lack of hands-on training and currency.

If the guy with the WS went in I'd just say well he fucked up, he should have pulled a second sooner.

Brian failed to react due to his lack of experience. He did not make the call to burn it low, that was not his intention and that is what makes this incident DIFFERENT.

Why can't you see that?
You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points

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On http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-me-jumper23oct23,0,1066215.story?coll=ny-leadnationalnews-headlines it says:

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Jean Boenish, another of the sport's pioneers and the former safety director for Bridge Day base jumping, saw Schubert fall.

"There were no factors that should have inhibited this parachute from opening properly," she said.

Schubert had no recent experience jumping and only a day of practice before Saturday, said Boenish, who was his friend and flew with him and Pelkey to West Virginia.

"I would not have let this man jump," she said. "I told him I didn't think he was ready. He would have nothing to do with me after that."



Also...is this a misquote or a lie? If it's not, it sheds a new (or resheds and existing) light on the whole "the trainers are responsible" argument.

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Jean trained him, but never mentioned any red flags to anyone until after the fact.

Jean also inquired about bidding on the BD Organizer job a few years ago and she was aggressively asking organizational questions to us this year and typing things into her laptop. Another Fayetteville local told us that Jean approached him on 10/20 and mentioned that she was training two old timers, but one of them should not jump. The local didn't know who she was talking about. I believe she feels guilty for having trained him and then not telling anyone before Brians jump.

However, ultimately Brian is responsible for his actions. The more I talk to his daughter, the more I wish I had been able to spend time with him. He was a great man and had great courage to leap off El Cap before many of us were even born.
(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

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Hmmm...kinda regret bringing that quote up again now. Seems to steer the discussion in a direction it shouldn't go. Organisation is perhaps not the issue here.

I only wanted to point out that perhaps she did indeed tell Mr. Schubert he shouldn't jump. That is all.

My apologies.

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Honor Among Thieves...

BASE jumpers, some Skydivers, my hipster friends, and all of my family are in "My Crew",
which means I didn't see anything, I didn't hear anything, and I sure as hell aint gonna testify.

I am probably more scared of BASE jumping than any three guys you know and want to have
better safety but lets stick together a while longer before we start sifting through the details.
Rigger, Skydiver, BASE Jumper, Retired TM

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I believe he tried to help Brian to jump in exactly the same way he would have helped anyone else. I've seen him go so far as to offer his personal gear to a first time jumper (someone who you've never heard of, and neither had he, who wasn't famous in the sport, or a big time skydiver, or anyone else).



Would he offer his gear to Joe Someone who didn't have any jumps within the last 20 years? Would he be right to do so?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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_____________________________________________

Brian failed to react due to his lack of experience.
_____________________________________________

I know that everyone who is taking this position is positively aware that all the square canopy experience in the world wouldn't have saved Brian's life. All he had to do is to count off three seconds and pitch.

I would be embarassed to appear to be so simple-minded that I thought executing this sequence would require extensive training and experience under canopy.

Brian was my dear friend and I would love to find someone or something to blame, but he was a big boy and 100% responsible for his own death.


.
In theory, there is no difference bretween theory and practice. In practice, however, there is. -

"RIP Forever Brian Schubert. Always remembered, Never forgotten" - Leroy DB
http://www.johnny

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Brian failed to react due to his lack of experience. He did not make the call to burn it low, that was not his intention and that is what makes this incident DIFFERENT



I'm curious how it is you know what was going through Brians mind at the time. The only one who truly knows what was happening can't tell us. It's easy to say I would have done this, or that, now.

Hind sight is always 20-20
NEVER GIVE UP!

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