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Mac

BD v TFs FJC

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I feel for Brians close and extended family, as this has scratched open an old wound on me. All the coulda', woulda' and shoulda's will not change what has happened. Event's like this bring out the best and the worst in people, so Mike , my hat is off to you for showing strength and courage when you are hurt so bad. The rest of us could take a lesson from your example, put our best foot forward and keep on keepin' on knowing the bar has been set high.

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people piont ther finger because there in secure maybe because they have a small dick or there mommy didnot hold them enough or maybe its because know one likes them because they smell and suck at flicking but that doesn't mean we should take it out on guys that have dedicated much of there live to bringing base to us we should just say thank u Tom Jonny Jason Brian
TOSS MY SALAD
I'm an invincible re-tarded ninja
derka derka bakala bakala muhammad jihad
1072

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you have many ideas. do you plan on contributing actions? such as teaching your own FJC? show us how it's done?

Jason:
I agree that if the fatality had been the WS jumper, many would be questioning why it was permited... (maybe not the ones questioning this incident, but there would be someone.)

Mike:
you continue to be an inspiration. I talked briefly to Brian Friday night. we said little, but I loved the sparkle in his eye!
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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No doubt... Pete hit the nail on the head. I take inspiration from your strength mike, and I hope my friends and family are as strong if I bring this day to them. I hate to admit it in public, but I think I even agree with maggot.... if I read him correctly. I don't really think bridge day needs to change. It's a F'n freakshow! and that's 1/2 the beauty of it. There may be more deaths here in the future, there will DEFINATLY be more deaths in base. suck it up gang. If you don't like those odds, go back to skydiving. I recomend swooping:P Myself, I'm gonna do my best to keep my head up through the tough times, learn from every mistake, and always watch my boys' backs.

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Jean trained him, but never mentioned any red flags to anyone until after the fact.



How could she? A dear friend that has been wanting to do this for the whole year and wouldn't have anything to do with her after she suggested he not jump. Knowing it was his decision, you think she should have went and tried to get the authorities to cut up his badge?

No offence meant by calling you the authorities.

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Jason:
I agree that if the fatality had been the WS jumper, many would be questioning why it was permited...



That depends. First I would be questioning that persons experience. 876 ft is not the most ideal height for a first time wingsuit BASE jump. (I'm not saying that it was the person in question's first wingsuit BASE jump, but a hypothetical person) What if that person had never made a wingsuit skydive before? What if the person had never made a BASE jump before? You'd hope that person would have enough common sense or peers around them to prevent that from happening, but what if they don't? Fair enough if it's in the middle of the night, out of sight, but not if it's a public spectacle.

It may be an unregulated sport but Bridge Day is not an unregulated event. A line had been drawn. I think that line needs to be moved.
Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

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And here was me thinking that B.A.S.E was a sport where you are expected to take personal responsibility for your fate. Hmmm...

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Personal responsibility for your own fate doesn't exclude responsibility to whom your fate may have influence.

"Fear is the path to the Dark side"
(Master Yoda)

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Yes, but from everything I've read, the jumper chose to jump against the advice of those who have influence. I just can't see how it's right to try and apportion blame in those circumstances.

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you have many ideas. do you plan on contributing actions? such as teaching your own FJC? show us how it's done?



I let the real base gods do all the teaching because if I were teaching someone to base jump he/she would have so much skydiving and rigging experience that probably no teaching would be required beside few minor things. You guys make base look so complicated.

It's very upsetting to me that many fail to recognize the difference in this death.

Let me give you two scenarios:

A guy with 4000 jumps, 600 in the past year hooking himself in.

A guy plunging to his death with 0 previous jump, failing to pull either main or reserve who was allowed to jump on his own.

If you cannot recognize the difference in these two scenarios than you are missing Mac's and my point altogether.

Again folks NOBODY is blaming ANYONE for god sake! But don't let this "self responsibility" crap blind you to the brim from trying to prevent accidents like this one from happening again.
You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points

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A line had been drawn. I think that line needs to be moved.



There is no doubt that the line will move. With BASE being an unregulated, unlicensed sport, relocating the "line" will require the collaborative thoughts of many people.

Should we not permit first time aerials? What about your first 4-way? Should wingsuits and tracking pants be banned, because we can't check everyone's logbook at the exit point (even then, it can be forged)? What is the appropriate currency? What if you can't speak and understand English - which could cause you to miss important exit ramp commands? Should we ban all skydiving gear? Should we ban foreign BASE gear? More than anything, I want Bridge Day to be safe. But I also don't want to see it fade out due to being overregulated.

Several years ago, I posted a helmet poll where the majority favored not having a helmet rule. I realize that many jumpers are independent and they value their personal freedoms. If an experienced jumper had died at Bridge Day due to a head injury, there would be many critics of our current helmet rule and some would be pointing fingers at us.

So how do we properly regulate Bridge Day while still permitting the personal freedoms that are the very essence of BASE jumping? Anyone can complain about the current requirements, but it takes a real jumper to offer his recommendations on improving the event.
(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

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Now for those of you that threatened me or called me a disgrace to BASE... I have achieved what I set out to achieve.... debate over something that everyone was thinking about....

my methods do make me look like a complete "See you next tuesday" and I know they do.... but all I want is people to discuss the issues that I feel need to be discussed.

I am sorry I offended ALOT of you, I am sorry you felt I was wrong.... I actually have the best intentions, my methods on the other hand are a bit fucked up....

I am shit at writing a decent post, the only way I know what to do is to throw shit at a fan....


All I wanted in the end was debate.....

edit to add: Thanks to all the people that emailed / PMd/ SMSd me saying "100% agree with you" - There were more of those than have actually bad mouthed me..... that kinda speaks loudly dont you think?

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BASE428, I have emailed you to the email on your profile...

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As I read this post, I am just wondering how much training Brian had when he decided to jump "El Cap". Certainly he had to receive more than 9 hours back then by all the experienced BASE gods.

With all the warning signs in place, Brian being the special kind of person he was, made a conscience choice to jump "El Cap" just as he did at Bridge Day 2006.

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doesn't mean we should take it out on guys that have dedicated much of there live to bringing base to us we should just say thank u Tom Jonny Jason Brian



Well my friends, ive been to 25 bdays and worked the lz for every organizer that has ever taken on this task, and it is a task. These men and women that support this event do an amazing job, for example, there is a meeting every month with the bd commission that we are asked to attend. setting up the registration, making changes, making sure all info is put in the proper place, keeping track of it is quite a job and the average person will never be able to even comprehend what it takes to allow you to show up without a photo (even though you have3 months after registration opens) and still get you through in a timely manner. looking over info for months, we are only human, and do the best that can be done with what we have to work with. The vertical vision team arrives 4 days before this event and leaves 2 days after , and alll of this is to promote this event. By no means do we want to see any of our brothers and sisters get injured or killed. MY POINT being we alll do the best we can and expect the cooperation of all of the jumpers during this time, More jumpers should think of others well being before themselves by making things happen and not laying the blame on anybody. The very bottom line is we all make that decision to jump, nobody makes it for us, we all know what can happen ,even if we are very careful. we as jumpers must take the responsibility for our own actions. Its like saying if the state of wva hadnt of built this bridge, then there would have been 3 fatalities. I for 1 have eyewitnessed all 3 incidents and have jumped after 2 of them. what about drowning, 1 death was a drowning, and yet we are not required to wear floatation, its your choice. Frankly after the drowning, i was next in line and was advised not to jump without floatation and then i stood up and jumped off!!

MY CHOICE.

So if you damage yourself in any way, anybody could say you shouldnt of jumped, but it was Your choice.
Come to grips with life, what you do is a direct influence in your life, and others may be affected. Be a positive effect on others ( If you can, Im not sure some have that in them) but try anyway. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, we (Vertical Visions team) are trying to make this the safest event worldwide, but your common sense would help!

If this were any of the jumpers we would hold to protocol the same way we are doing now to protect from having the incorrect information being released about any of you! Whether it be an injury or a death.
I read the official press release statement in the debrief sat nite, and also escorted the daughter off of the beach, the look in tinas eyes, were that she knew the outcome, no matter what anyone said.This is something that will be with me for the rest of my days. Im just glad others didnt have to be there. Some may have never been back because of this. These are also part of our job, and we are dealing with it the best we can.

In conclusion my friends, this a very trying time for the vertical vision team and we are all doing the absolute best we can. Your help and support would be greatly appreciated,. Please respect our fallen Brother as you would want for yourself!

Bill Bird LZ Cordinator
trapped in a portal in time, surrounded by evil, runnin out of gas!!! destination unknown

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Should we not permit first time aerials? What about your first 4-way? Should wingsuits and tracking pants be banned, because we can't check everyone's logbook at the exit point (even then, it can be forged)? What is the appropriate currency?



That's the nub. Setting what is appropriate is a tough call and it will be neigh on impossible to please everyone. Nothing should be banned, but there should be progression in everything. It is difficult to verify people's qualifications, so all you can do is have participants declare that they have reached minimums before they try something at the next level, to ensure they are not biting off more than they can chew. You yourself say you want Bridge Day to be as safe as possible, so in a sensitive and public environment, it is not the place for people to be doing their first 4-way when they've only done solo's before. If people deceive you then that is their look out; all you can do is lay down the requirements and have people agree and accept those requirements.

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But I also don't want to see it fade out due to being overregulated.



I don't want to see it fade out due to being underregulated.

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Several years ago, I posted a helmet poll where the majority favored not having a helmet rule. I realize that many jumpers are independent and they value their personal freedoms



I think having a helmet rule is the absolute minimum thing you can do to demonstrate to the powers that be that you are striving for safety. It's a very easy win. But then again, I come from a nanny-state, where I have little choice when it comes to such matters, although I still chose to wear when even when I don't have to.

Is it about the individuals or is it about the event?

As I understand it, people have to submit themselves to security checks to take part in Bridge Day so they are already trading personal freedoms to do so. Again, it's down to the line, and where it is drawn.
Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

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As posted before, I don't think there should be a helmet rule for people intentionally landing in the water. The helmet rule is already in effect for the diving board. Besides that, it's up to the jumper. There's already a thread debating helmet use in BASE on the first page of this forum. Me, I'm all for helmets and pads unless you plan on landing in the water, but I don't think it should be required.

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As posted before, I don't think there should be a helmet rule for people intentionally landing in the water. The helmet rule is already in effect for the diving board. Besides that, it's up to the jumper. There's already a thread debating helmet use in BASE on the first page of this forum. Me, I'm all for helmets and pads unless you plan on landing in the water, but I don't think it should be required.



And of course we all know that BASE jumps go according to plan, as intended, all the time. That river is surrounded by rocks, trees, spectators, vehicles, traintracks. Plenty of things to ruin your day.

I'm all for personal freedom and choices, but I don't think that argument holds much merit.
-C.

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In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Jean trained him, but never mentioned any red flags to anyone until after the fact.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


How could she? A dear friend that has been wanting to do this for the whole year and wouldn't have anything to do with her after she suggested he not jump.


ill tell a mate ANY day if i think he/she shouldnt jump

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Knowing it was his decision, you think she should have went and tried to get the authorities to cut up his badge?


perhaps thats what "teachers/mentors" need to do..

Perhaps close relation ship teaching aint the good way..

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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I would like to hear more of peoples thoughts on the title of this thread.

I took a FJC at Twin Falls, and felt good about it afterwards, went out and did some jumps on my own afterwards. I still needed/need advice from people more experienced of course, but I felt relatively prepared for what could be out there.

How do people that take a course at BD feel about things this after thieir course and only completing 2-4(max, I'm guessing) jumps? I'm guessing not very well, despite the "course material being the same".

I did 17 jumps on my course over 6 days, and still felt like needed a lot.

What are some peoples progression after a BD course? Ours was PCA -> Handheld -> Stowed -> longer delays -> etc...

What do FJC instructors (other than Tom, who said that he offers a discount on a subsequent TF course) offer in terms of follow up?

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I'm hoping we can get a few anwers as to how people fealt about their BD training. I have a feeling some people are thinking they can go jump the world now and some (hopefully) realize that they could benefit from more info.

I also did an FJC at TF and got 23 jumps. I fealt very informed but have learned a few things since and will continue to learn, especially with possible advancements in gear technology.

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I would like to hear more of peoples thoughts on the title of this thread.



BD:
safer exit.
more time to open.
properly manned main LZ (the water).

unfortunately, limited time. this interferes with the learning opportunity.

TF:
with no time limit, the instructors can wait for good weather and spread the learning opportunity over multiple days. this will permit re-inforcement of the training and more opportunity to develop their skills.
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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I didn't take the expanded FJC at BD but I did attend the hour long "survival" seminar. I can't say that I learned very much about BASE except how to "S" fold my bridle and pilot chute. I don't feel ready to jump anything else before being seriously mentored off what is considered "safer" BASE objects. I think a full blown FJC would be a great benefit to me but since I can imagine every single object to be different in nature, I am sure a FJC would not prepare me for everything I could come across.

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