Mac 1 #1 October 25, 2006 http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24437 FLAME AWAY! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jkbasejumper 0 #2 October 25, 2006 aaaawwww....shit! we're gonna need a young priest and an old priest when this is all over with...big country base998 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base428 1 #3 October 25, 2006 QuoteFLAME AWAY! You are obviously looking to start trouble, Mac. The fatality and Birdman incidents did not involve new jumpers. The Birdman was a low pull and not the result of wearing a suit. We are not sure why Brian didn't release his PC and we're still investigating it. We always suggest that jumpers receive extensive BASE training. For several years now, we offered a full blown FJC with expert instruction. This was MY idea several years ago and it NEVER existed in the past. At least 19 jumpers took advantage of it. If for some reason jumpers choose to not seek advanced training prior to BD through their mentor or another FJC, we (and past organizers) offer a 1-1.5 hour long course to show them the basics of the launch, holding the pc, landing, etc. We made jump requirements more strict in recent years. This year, the approximate 128 first time jumpers did great and all of them had a great time. In past years, thousands of first timers have successfully made a jump at Bridge Day. Quote...were there doubts from people involved in the training? If so, why did people not stand up / get heard? IF the "BASE Gods" involved in the training have anything decent to say then they will actually accept "personal responsibility" and stand forward and say "ok I messed up" Perhaps you should ask Jean Boenish about the training she provided to Brian. Would YOU question a jumper trained by Jean Boenish and THREE other very experienced jumpers?. If Jean thought Brian should not have jumped, then why didn't Jean tell us? We didn't know when Brian made his last jump and most, if not all, BASE FJC's don't have currency requirements. Brian is ultimately responsible for his own death and it's sad to see you trying to point fingers at the instructors. Brian received at least 9 hours of training that we are aware of. Seeing that you've never been to Bridge Day, what gives you right to criticize it? In the wake of a fatality, I can't believe you have the nerve to criticize the event. You have always been negative toward Bridge Day, and now you're being negative towards our sport in general. You are a disgrace to our sport. In the future, perhaps our unregulated sport should raise requirements for all jumps? Now you'll need the following: -1000 skydives (50 made in the last one month) -BASE specific gear that is less than 2 years old, chosen from an approved list -No wingsuits or trackpants -Mandatory helmets, knee pads, elbow pads, full body armor, gloves, jump boots. -Must bring your logbook and show organizers you made stated jumps. -Must receive a medical evaluation 30 days prior to jump -Must attend our 7 day long FJC if you have less than 50 BASE jumps. -Appropriate size canopies for each jumpers weight, verified by us. -We'll have our staff examine your pack job -Everyone will have to perform exits in the pendulator -Maximum 3 second delays or we'll cut your badge -Must go flat and stable (no aerials) ....you get the point, I trust? Perhaps you can offer some suggestions to make it safer rather than bashing us? In case you didn't know, BASE jumping is dangerous. There have always been "close calls" at Bridge Day each year and at every other jumpable object in the world. Didn't you, an "experienced jumper", get all busted up and nearly die in the past? This is a very tough time for us. I'm in the process of analyzing video and stills to see what went wrong. What really hurts the most is reading that my BASE brothers and sisters are pointing fingers rather than offering help and suggestions. (c)2006 Jason Bell. No unauthorized duplication permitted.(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base_rigger 0 #4 October 25, 2006 QuoteWe are not sure why Brian didn't release his PC and we're still investigating it Investigating??? Dude, it's called brainlock, sensory overloading, you god damn name it. QuoteFor several years now, we offered a full blown FJC with expert instruction. Sure, 350 bucks and absolutely no jumps prior to the BD one. You call that a full blown FJC? QuoteBrian received at least 9 hours of training that we are aware of. And how many PCA did that include? Or why didn't anyone suggest something along those lines "Hey Brian, about a trip to a DZ and a couple of S/Ls? you know it's been about 25 years from your last jump and 40 from your only BASE and you have never flown a ra air". Jason you are doing an incredible job putting together the event, no doubt. However there were some serious overlooks that ultimately led to Brian's death. If Brian was my student I would have forced him to make a couple of skydives and I would have PCAed him of the bridge, at least on the first jump.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MyTwoCents 0 #5 October 25, 2006 QuoteHowever there were some serious overlooks that ultimately led to Brian's death. Nope. There was only one; Brian didn't throw his pilotchute on time. To anybody trying to shift blame to anybody but Brian himself, please PM me your addres, I'll personally come punch you in the face. I'm confident that Jason and all the others involved tried incredibly hard to make sure that Brian was adequately prepared. When the day comes that I go in, don't let me catch any of you fuckers trying to put blame anywhere else but my own decisions and actions. If I can't own my failures, I'll never deserve success. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #6 October 25, 2006 QuoteHowever there were some serious overlooks that ultimately led to Brian's death. Regardless of any past experience. Pull Pull on time Pull on time stableMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base_rigger 0 #7 October 25, 2006 QuoteBrian was adequately prepared Which he was not! And that's the point! NOBODY is blaming ANYONE for Brian's death. However an accident is always a chain of events and any of the following could have broken some links: Few skydives before BD. PCA instead of FF. BASE AFF with two Is where the right I deploys. Again NOBODY is blaming ANYONE but at least there should be some effort in trying to avoid a similar situation in the future.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mac 1 #8 October 25, 2006 Quote You are obviously looking to start trouble, Mac. No, I am obviously looking to ask questions others may not.... also why are you responding to this thread rather than where the original thread is posted? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #9 October 25, 2006 Quote(c)2006 Jason Bell. No unauthorized duplication permitted. Trying to prevent some opportunistic journalist from using your post Jason? Couldn't they just reword it?Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base_rigger 0 #10 October 25, 2006 Oh by the way...BASE ain't skydiving we all know that but try to go to any DZ in the US and see if they let you jump all by yourself after it has been 25 years since your last jump using equipment that now it's not even use as a car cover.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mac 1 #11 October 25, 2006 QuoteWould YOU question a jumper trained by Jean Boenish and THREE other very experienced jumpers?. YES I WOULD... just because you maybe a name, if I disagree with you I will still stand there and say "you are wrong", how many people would do that? Maybe Brian would be alive if someone stood up to you lot as "BASE Gods" Point in fact, your egos got in the way of sensible choices.... you tried to get a "legend" jumped..... you got that... he died.... deal with it, accept your choices hey!!!! at least have the balls to admit it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base428 1 #12 October 25, 2006 Are you saying that Johnny U. and Tom Aiello aren't teaching an appropriate 4 day long BASE FJC? They might disagree. Vertical Visions doesn't teach the full blown BASE FJC, by the way. Every jumper must have made a considerable amount of skydives prior to attending each FJC (it's up to each instructor). As to making a return trip to the DZ, Brian was offered this opportunity but he eventually decided against it. Remember that Mike Pelkey had similar training and perfect return jump at Bridge Day 2005. QuoteIf Brian was my student I would have forced him to make a couple of skydives and I would have PCAed him of the bridge, at least on the first jump. First of all, you obviously don't know the physical size of the NRGB. PCA'ing from NRGB is like PCA'ing from a low cliff. There is at least 150' of steel below the exit point. PCA's are not as safe as short freefalls. As I mentioned before, we had no knowlege of Brian's currency. If only Jean Boenish, who probably spent the most time with him, had told us about her concerns, then things might have been different...(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MyTwoCents 0 #13 October 25, 2006 QuoteI disagree with you I will still stand there and say "you are wrong" Mac, sometimes it can be useful to ask yourself what you're trying to achieve when you post something. And in case you already know it yourself, enlighten us and tell us what the goal of this discussion is? Do you think the people involved haven't gone through similar thought exercises already? Given most of them knew Brian personally, I'm sure they'll go through much more rigorous and contemplative discussions than anything you can come up with. You're not helping Mac... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mac 1 #14 October 25, 2006 Quotewe had no knowlege of Brian's currency. BOLLOXS! How come me in the UK did and you did not???? Absolute shit! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mac 1 #15 October 25, 2006 Quotetell us what the goal of this discussion is? To get people to be truthful and actually accept "personal resposibility".... that is what BASE is about QuoteYou're not helping Mac... With what exactly? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base_rigger 0 #16 October 25, 2006 QuoteAre you saying that Johnny U. and Tom Aiello aren't teaching an appropriate 4 day long BASE FJC? No they are not. BASE jumping is a hands-on activity. There are no prior jumps in the form of PCA during their corse at the BD unlike the ones they conduct in TW. QuoteRemember that Mike Pelkey had similar training and perfect return jump at Bridge Day 2005. Wow Jason, a sample size of 1. You are re-writing statistics here QuoteFirst of all, you obviously don't know the physical size of the NRGB. PCA'ing from NRGB is like PCA'ing from a low cliff. There is at least 150' of steel below the exit point. PCA's are not as safe as short freefalls. My bad, I meant off a different object... An AFF with two Is would have been a great alternative. QuoteAs I mentioned before, we had no knowlege of Brian's currency And that is not an overlook?You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mac 1 #17 October 25, 2006 QuoteYou are a disgrace to our sport. Well if you think that then fine... If I am a disgrace to BASE from you then obviously I am.... you are a name after all, so what you say is truth.... IF you actually knew me you would appreicate my passion, but I am just a little man and my thoughts and attempts at causing mayhem to keep alive the passion maybe lost..... I want people to ask questions Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MyTwoCents 0 #18 October 25, 2006 QuoteTo get people to be truthful and actually accept "personal responsibility".... that is what BASE is about First of all; that is what BASE is about to you. Others may have other opinions. Secondly; you don't think that Jason and Jean and all the others don't feel terrible right now? You don't think they wish they could go back in time and change things? Thirdly; I'll be truthful and take personal responsibility if that is what you want: "Dear BASE community, I'm really sorry I didn't hop on a plane to fly to West Virgiana to stop Brian from jumping. I failed you all." Fourth; You're a fucking asshole Mac. You remind me of that guy that gives speeches at funerals to remind everybody what a cunt the deceased was. It doesn't help anybody, but at least you feel better, don't you? You need to relax. Go pack your canopy, go make a jump, and give up on this idealized picture you have of BASE. It never existed anywhere but in our heads... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base_rigger 0 #19 October 25, 2006 QuoteSecondly; you don't think that Jason and Jean and all the others don't feel terrible right now? This is not about feeling terrible or not. It's about PREVENTING shit like this from happening again. QuoteFourth; You're a fucking asshole Mac. I wonder if Tom is going to ban you but I doubt. QuoteYou need to relax And you need to see the point he is trying to make.You know you have a problem when maggot is the voice of reason at the exit points Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base428 1 #20 October 25, 2006 Quoteyou tried to get a "legend" jumped Brian was not "invited" to BD. Brian paid his $75 like everyone else and he stood in line like the rest. We did NOT try to get a legend jumped. Actually, the organizers had very few converstations with Brian since he was being carefully trained by the best (his own words on NPR radio). He was just another jumper to us. And we don't check logbooks at BD (no one ever has). Much of how BD is regulated is based on what the past organizers have done. We made the rules more strict in recent years, but apparently not strict enough for some of you. Again, I'll ask you for suggestions to make it safer rather than attacks against our policies. Brian's daughter Tina hoped that people wouldn't argue and fight over Brian's death. Brian wanted to jump so bad that he would have reportedly jumped the next day if we had pulled his jump badge. Of course, if Jean had said anything to us things might be different. Out of respect for Brian's family, perhaps you can withhold your attacks?(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #21 October 25, 2006 Quoteperhaps you can withhold your attacks Two wrongs don't make a right Jason. Everyone calm down. MyTwoCents, you are out of order.Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mac 1 #22 October 25, 2006 QuoteI wonder if Tom is going to ban you but I doubt. Cause not........ one of the clique hey! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base428 1 #23 October 25, 2006 QuoteTwo wrongs don't make a right Jason. Craig, you aren't helping this either. BRIAN'S DAUGHTER doesn't want everyone attacking each other.(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #24 October 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteTwo wrongs don't make a right Jason. Craig, you aren't helping this either. BRIAN'S DAUGHTER doesn't want everyone attacking each other. I'm not attacking; just trying to get everyone to stick to the rules of the site.Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #25 October 25, 2006 Come on, you've been around here long enough to know better. QuoteYou're a fucking asshole Mac. That's a personal attack. QuoteI'll personally come punch you in the face. And that's a direct threat of physical violence. Neither of those is allowed here. The second is way over the line. I'm banning you for 30 days.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
