Sponsorship Questions and General Manufacturer discussion

[aubsmell 0]

Well I could be opening up a can of whoop ass for myself on this post, but here it goes.

This is a multi pronged question: First opening up a discussion on Sponsorship in the skydiving industry. How do people feel about it? Overall. What do you feel manufacturers could do to better their methods of sponsoring skydivers (athletes and Instructors)? If you take a second to read the ASIP program in the Safety and Training Forum, what do you think of it?

There are a lot of reasons why companies want to sponsor individuals to jump their gear:

-Altruistic: i.e. want to help the sport grow by facilitating competitors to hone their skills get better do cooler stuff. Wanting instructors to have the newest safest gear to set the example etc.
(I once overheard a conversation where in someone was badmouthing Sunpath for sponsoring the whole world, and the person defending Derek said that Derek had told him that he did sponsor a lot of people but he did it because he wanted to be part of everything good in skydiving, I thought that was a great answer...and the stock in Sunpath went up in my book, and I don't even really know if he said it, but it sounded good to me, not that what I think matters they have a huge number of fans and make a great product)
-Beta Testing: new products are created, they need to be tested. (An 8way team, 9 people doing 1000 [9000 total] training jumps in a year can give you valuable data on, many things such as line types, durability etc, trim issues and progressive problems.)
-Exposure: Companies want the cool and groovies jumping their stuff.

What are more reasons? What are perceived reasons that you feel there is no accountability for. What do you feel companies should do if they sponsor someone who clearly doesn’t add anything after a period of time?

Here is where I deviate from sponsorship, with a statement then a question.

I don’t have a tremendous amount of experience in linear time in this industry, however I am now in a position in my second major skydiving equipment related company (well Aerodyne may not be major yet…yet) and I find myself questioning sales methodology, company operation, delivery times, sponsorship, quality control and new product/technology development. All of these issues I look at not only from a companies point of view, but because I’m a skydiver, I try to look at them from a customer’s point of view and because the lifeblood of my sales system are distributors, I try to see things through their eyes too.

I guess what I’m doing here is something I’ve seldom seen in these forums. I know I’ve been guilty too, people ask questions in an open forum and I come in, as an official representative of a manufacturer and say bla, bla, bla Slink, bla bla hard housing. I’m in a position now, as the Beastie Boys would say, to pass the mike. And ask the skydivers of the world some question questions:

-How do you feel manufacturers could better serve the customer?
-What do you feel we (manufacturers) do right?
-What do you feel we do wrong?
-What do you think would facilitate more product sales?
-Do you have any question about the safety of products? (this is a tricky one because every company, including mine has an answer for every single question and concern of safety, but what I’m looking for more is any underlying fears)
-What endears you to the sport of skydiving?

Over all I’ve very rarely seen manufacturers asking the customer’s opinion? Questions as simple and to the point as: What would make you buy more stuff? We all sit around at meetings on Wednesdays and think of ways to sell our products to our friends. It’s crazy.


I guess really I’m just opening it up for opinions, if there is any part of this post you want to speak on, I’d love to read it. If you have any great sales or marketing ideas I’d love to read them. If they are REALLY great…. ah could you send them to my personal email account.

If you have any questions of me feel free to ask….

a.easterlin@aerodyne-int.com

Aubrey Easterlin
Aerodyne Research

"Those who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt those who are doing it"

[skybytch 267]

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-How do you feel manufacturers could better serve the customer?

By being responsive to their wants and needs. Things like offering wingsuit mods on containers, having demo equipment available to all jumpers (not just those at boogies or big dz's) and constantly working to improve your products.

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-What do you feel we (manufacturers) do right?

Most manufacturers do an excellent job of being available to answer questions - it's funny how amazed people are when I tell them to call the manufacturer; they're sure you guys are totally not going to want to talk to them! Great products too; it's nice to be able to honestly tell one of my customers that pretty much any rig is going to be safe and comfortable.

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What do you feel we do wrong?

Can't think of anything I'd say is "wrong." But I've been in the industry for a few years (from the dealer side) so I understand at least some the challenges of running a skydiving related business.

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What do you think would facilitate more product sales?

Going to a direct dealership setup rather than the limited number of distributorships. As a small gear store owner it's not worth my time or effort to sell your products because I can't get the kind of discount from your distributors that I can from the other manufacturers.

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-Do you have any question about the safety of products?

Nope. Not in the slightest. Shit happens; I accept any risks that go along with using skydiving equipment.

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-What endears you to the sport of skydiving?

The people.

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[RevJim 0]

Wow. Excellent, thought provoking post, Aubrey. I do not have a great deal of jumps in this sport, but it has had my full attention for almost 6 years, so I will answer your questions to the best of my ability.

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Sponsorship in the skydiving industry. How do people feel about it?

It is a necessary evil. Those that are sponsored make the product visible, while at the same time creating contempt for themselves. Everybody loves to see the gear out there, but those wearing this "free" gear also get the backlash of the people that actually have no choice but to pay full price. These "full price people" are the bread and butter of the industry. Keep them happy. An "Airspeed mod" or a "Magik Mod" on the order sheet, marked as "Free" goes a loooong way.

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What do you feel manufacturers could do to better their methods of sponsoring skydivers (athletes and Instructors)?

Don't advertise "who" you sponsor. Really. People see loads and loads of one particular rig or main at a DZ, but none are emblazoned with huge logos or special "Factory team colors". This gives the impression that this item is popular, not flooded by sponsorships. Those monstor PD and Icarus logos on the teams canopies? Ugh.

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-How do you feel manufacturers could better serve the customer?

The status quo here is not really a bad thing. Value, especially now that the economy has really tanked, is of greatest importance. Making the options cheap add ons, or just including most of the minor ones can make the difference between brand X and brand Y.

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-What do you feel we (manufacturers) do right?

You are here in the first place. That's right #1. I also see very little of the "Ours is better/stronger/safer than theirs" type advertisements. This is also a good thing. Keep it up.

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-What do you feel we do wrong?

Market share is a good thing. Market domination, not so good. I loooove my PD reserve. It's popular. This dictates a higher price, at least lately. This also means that my next rig will probably not have a pd reserve in it. Economics, remember? I'm going for the cheaper one, pure and simple.

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-What do you think would facilitate more product sales?

There is a double edge sword you are wielding here. We have a general average of about 35,000 active skydivers. Some quit, some start and stay with it, but that's about the average. To sell more, people are either downsizing, starting (used for many), or buying second/third/ect rigs. If people need to replace items, like mains, that wear out, will they go with another of the same (that wore out) or try a different brand to see if it lasts longer? On the other hand, if it doesn't wear out, it doen't get replaced. Tough call. Market to the newbies, and accentuate with your high end lines.

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-Do you have any question about the safety of products? (this is a tricky one because every company, including mine has an answer for every single question and concern of safety, but what I’m looking for more is any underlying fears)

I don't question the safety of the items I already own, as i see them up close and personal each and every time I use them. When looking for newer gear though, I am very safety concious. The written word, whether right of wrong, is very powerful. Take for instance the Catapult, the Pull out, and certain Raven reserves. They are on my list to avoid. Why? Simply because I read about a few problems in the past. If there is a problem that has been found, bring it up as fast as possible, and have a proper fix ready ASAP. If this means grounding, have a replacement ready to go for everyone that could be grounded. For example, if a main is found to have problems across a product line, and must be grounded, be prepared to replace it very quickly, or be prepared to lose a HUGE customer base, both from repeat business and word of mouth.

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-What endears you to the sport of skydiving?

Wow, double meaning here. LOL
What makes skydiving atractive to me? The people. Really. I've participated in many sports, but this is the only one where no matter where I go, I'm made to feel like family. Try that with golf or bowling.
This could also mean what makes skydiving expensive though, and that also goes back to the gear mfgs. $15 to $20 a jump we can swallow. $2000 + for nylon, $1500 + for cordura and an optional $1000+ for an AAD is alot harder to swallow.
Marketing vs. price. It's a difficult decision. A new Mirage will demand well over 2 grand with decent options. How would a rig with the exact same options sell at half the price? Would demand increase? Would demand increase enough to cover the difference in profit margin? What if the profit margin alone was cut in half? What would demand do? Personally, if I could get a top of the line rig, like the G4 Mirage, for half the price or slightly more, chances are I would buy two. He with the most toys, right?

Wow, that was a long post, but I hope it conveyed at least some of my feelings.

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[rjf98 0]

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-How do you feel manufacturers could better serve the customer?

With canopies... the first thing I would say is that if a customer orders something custom (or otherwise) and you can't get it to them like right now... offer a demo while they are waiting. Might not be the color they want, and it might have a few jumps, but it is the same style and size. Hell put your logo all over it.

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-What do you feel we (manufacturers) do right?

I'll tell you what Velocity does right. It takes care of it's customers by answering questions and generally making them feel good about their stuff. It helps that Kelly replaced my container free of charge after the fire. I didn't expect it, nor would I expect it in the future, but taking care of me like that endeared me to him and that company.

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-What do you feel we do wrong?

Charging people to put your logo on their stuff. I really think that is sick and wrong, and I won't pay extra to advertise for anyone. Now, you want to go and give me some sort of discount to put your name all over my stuff, or even charge me to not have it.. well that's ok with me. The other thing done wrong is poor estimation of delivery times. To know you're going to wait 8 weeks is one thing. To be told 8 and wait 12 just plain SUCKS!

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-What do you think would facilitate more product sales?

Kinda tricky I guess. If I had the "right" answer I'd make you pay me money to come up with it.
I think some sort of automatic discount for instructors would help (of course you'd want to put your name on the stuff and that would just be part of the understood deal). I know there isn't a piece of gear one in scuba diving that instructors can't get a discount on. I'm sort of torn on this because I have talked with some long time instructors, and I understand my duty to be honest with students and not speak from a strictly sponsored perspective. I suppose if one company did it.. most others would follow. You'd want to put some sort of limit on this as well so that instructors wouldn't be undercutting your dealers.

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-Do you have any question about the safety of products? (this is a tricky one because every company, including mine has an answer for every single question and concern of safety, but what I’m looking for more is any underlying fears)

Not really. The fact that the stuff is TSOd says it all for the most part. Electronic stuff on the other hand needs to be more open about what goes on inside the piece of equipment. Skydivers talk to riggers all the time as well, and the community has plenty of 10 lb heads that can analysize this stuff. It annoys the crap out of me to pay the money Airtech charges for a battery that should be able to be purchased in Wall-Mart.

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-What endears you to the sport of skydiving?

Gotta agree with the Bytch. It's the people

A final suggestion (and if you decide to do so, I want credit... seriously). When you take an order.. keep the customer well fed with information about the progress of the order. Almost EVERYONE has emal. If it's a canopy or container. Send photos when the material is cut, and during the sewing process. Don't be apologetic about it having to sit on a shelf and wait in a que. Let the customer know that is what is happening. Weekly updates prior to the weekend with photos of the stack of paper getting smaller, or the partially constructed canopy will keep people happy and creat excitement and not resentment.

My two cents.

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[slotperfect 7]

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Nope. Not in the slightest. Shit happens; I accept any risks that go along with using skydiving equipment.

I knew I liked you.

Not many people are willing to go there. Thanks for being bold and honest.

Arrive Safely

John

[Amazon 7]

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How do you feel manufacturers could better serve the customer?
-What do you feel we (manufacturers) do right?
-What do you feel we do wrong?
-What do you think would facilitate more product sales?
-Do you have any question about the safety of products? (this is a tricky one because every company, including mine has an answer for every single question and concern of safety, but what I’m looking for more is any underlying fears)
-What endears you to the sport of skydiving?

ONe of the biggest gripes I see people with is DELIVERY TIMES...When I ordered my Infinity it was winter and took about 2 weeks even with all the features Kelly put on it for my requirements. When I ordered my PANTZ they said 6 to 8 weeks.. it was 5.. RAWK ON.
My New Canopy is getting to be an interesting experience.. but its winter.. and its being taken care of now.

People do have SOME control over ordering .. do it in the winter so the Manufacturers can be a bit more realistic. this works from BOTH sides Manufacturer and consumer.. if you order in the summer... prepare for a long wait. PERIOD

ALmost all of the people I have seen in this new day and age... are also skydivers and they take pride in their equipment. Good stuff and safe as it can be made.

What do you do wrong.. Everything is custom made... BUT I think certain STOCK items ( use the computer people to determine what are COMMON rig and canopy sizes/colors bought statistically) could be made when times are slow to alleviate some of the wait times when its not slow.

More product sales is tough.. there are so few jumpres worldwide... but if priced competitively.. some can get new equipment more frequently.

Safety.. see above.. I know from having met some of the reps at boogies that most are skydivers themselves and ANYTHING found to be unsafe would be taken care of immediately.. at least by anyone I have met.

I came back to the sport after a 22 year layoff. I am in my second childhood. I have met some totally cool people and got to do things most people my age think I am nutz for doing...its ok if they want to be boring and watch TV all the rest of their lives its their choice... mine is to be in the sky dancing on air or going VERY FAST.....god the people in this sport are fun to be around.


Oh and I will take anything in RED

[sundevil777 102]

>>How could you better serve the customer?

Try marketing a reserve pin that can't be bent by a closing loop (no matter how tight), or bent by leaning against something in the plane/door.

If it takes a slightly larger diameter and a super moly-razmatazz alloy - whatever. The cost for the tooling would probably be a lot less than your new 3-ring, or the skyhook, etc.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Rdutch 0]

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-Do you have any question about the safety of products? (this is a tricky one because every company, including mine has an answer for every single question and concern of safety, but what I’m looking for more is any underlying fears)

I think one of the biggest problems out there is that, not a lot of skydivers do question something, they believe that just because something is for sale, its 100% safe. While no one makes the perfect rig, canopy or automatic opening device, there is a lot to be said for those that go the extra step to try and provide the safest product possible. A good example is reserve canopies. People buy a reserve with the intention of hopefully never jumping it, why would you purchase something that is to be your last chance, and not look into it, and test fly one first.

Buying a rig or a canopy because someone on your dropzone jumps one and he looks cool jumping it, or he/she is high profile, is a bad idea. So this is something to think about, maybe the idea of providing a superior product, and asking your customers to look around, and ask questions and do some research. Then if you provide the best product, they clearly will make the best choice. Advertising will always sell gear, but I trust my life to more than who has the best ads, or who sponsors the best teams.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[skybytch 267]

This is a good thread. To keep it from being further buried in Talkback, I'm going to move it to Gear & Rigging.

[riggerrob 633]

Three points, first of all, your ASIP Program is a great idea. Put the sponsored gear on the backs of the instructors, load organizers and coaches who interact the most with junior jumpers.I plan to mention your ASIP Program loudly at our riggers course in a couple of weeks.

Secondly, make it clear who is sponsored by how much. I am really tired of hearing poser, AirSpeed wannabee yuppies brag about how they were sponsored by company "J" when we all know that most of them only got "best dealer discount." Feel free to sew huge labels on demo canopies or full-sponsored gear, however, the labels get smaller as the level of factory sponsorship declines. If some poser wants huge "Factory X Sponsored Team" embroidery on his rig, make him pay through the nose for it.
Finally, find a way to reduce delivery times during the summer months. Like an earlier poster suggested, analyse sales, then partially sew up some of the more popular sizes and colors. Most DZs north of the 49th parrellel have short skydiving seasons. While many junior jumpers would like custom coloured rigs, they are not willing to wait until next year for them.
Something else you could do is simplify the ordering process. This is more of a software/statistical issue. Set up an order page on Aerodyne's website with DEFAULTS, so that when a junior jumper goes to it, the web page defaults to a medium-sized harness with medium-sized canopies and the most popular options. As he starts inputting his weight, height, etc. the software flips to newer, more refined defaults. For example, if the dude wants a 149 square foot main canopy then the software automatically defaults to a 140 reserve and the ICON (container) that GRACEFULLY holds those containers along with hip rings, hacky sack, Cypres pockets, RSL, small logo, black 500 denier Cordura, etc..
In summation, make the order process easier for junior jumpers. Show them a DEFAULT (average) rig (ala. Voodoo), then charge them extra for anything out of the ordinary.

Why have I stuck around skydiving for 27 years?
The people.

[TomAiello 26]

I'd consider the experience level of the person you are sponsoring, at the discipline you are sponsoring them for.

While this sounds elementary, I can't count the number of sponsored people I see with less than 50 jumps. Sounds insane, doesn't it? Yet skydiving sponsors do it all the time. They sponsor their freeflyers/swoopers/wingsuit flyers/RW jumpers/skiiers/snowboarders/etc with BASE gear, despite the fact that those people have very little BASE experience. This leads to some very bad things--like sponsored jumpers taking beginners on as students, when the sponsored jumper themself is really just a student.

My advice: sponsor people for disciplines they actually know about, and have experience in. And don't just take their word for it. Ask other people if they really do have the experience and skills to be sponsored.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[aubsmell 0]

Wow, I've seen some really great stuff in this thread, and I honestly want to reply to all of it, I have even gotten some private messages and emails here at the office with some great ideas and some heartfelt answers....and all of this is beneficial to me, I guess to us if I can implement some of these things. Also just the open discussion and some of your ideas has triggered ideas of my own that I otherwise could not have thought of I appriciate the time that goes in to these posts.
It is also nice to see that a common theme in why people skydive is the people. That is why I work in skydiving for sure, its not th money or the three square meals of cat food a day I can afford to buy with it. And it is one of them major reasons why I jump and spend so much time at dropzones. We definitly have our share of intresting charachters in this little play called life, and I believe the MOST interesting ones find it necessary to hurl themsleves out of planes and fly around under a wad of fabric and string.
But as I've found, one of the main reasons why I skydive, is the purity of the moment. The happiest people are the people that can appriciate the moment they live in right now. I know I'm guilty of living in the past and the future and worrying about what is coming up and what happend last week. And I won't say that skydiving FORCES you to live in the moment, but it is one of the few things that naturally guides you there. And in my experience, when I find myself completely in the now, I'm often alone (which is very nice) but with skydiving you can share these moments of absolute purety which in many ways can be very intiment, without actually having to share in the newances of someones life. Each jump being like a picture that you create with someone and can take with you, but can't really share with anyone else, even if you have great video, you can watch all the video in the world but you still didn't experience that jump. Well I tend to run on, but that is what endears me to the sport.

Anyone who knows me knows I like to tell stories, and I'm extremely long winded, so here goes a graphic illustration of the above, if you don't like stories, skip on to the next post.

This weekend I went back to Deland, my first weekend jumping there since I resigned from PD. And as soon as I got to the DZ I run in to John LeBlanc. And to be honest it was a little uncomfortable, as I hadn't spoken to him at all since I started with Aerodyne, mostly because we were never exactly buddies at PD, I worked at a department under his executive control and only actually had about 20 conversations with him over all, and I felt a bit of guilt, as you could imagine, over gaining as much knowledge as I possibly could at one company, and then moving to help start the sales and marketing for a company with a competitive product in the same market. My justification being, that I'd done as much as I could do there and felt that I personally could have a greater, more positive impact on the sport in a different positon somewhere else. This is something that Bushman offered me at Aerodyne.
However I was doing some jumps with Yuca (Jari Kusma's brother) He was focusing on tracking to prepair for the first jump on a wing suit he was to take later this week. I had borrowed my friend Justin's Marige and Velocity because my Icon and Pilot were on my wing suit, after the jump while packing, John came over and asked me if i missed my Velocity, and I told him the truth, Damn Hell Shit Mutherfuckin strait I missed it, and I only hope we come up something in the future like it for the sake of Aerodyne Employee moral. Then of course I went on to tell him a little about our products and that I was really impressed with them all and that I'd be expecting a tri braced Prototype any day now (had to mess with him a little bit). Either way I invited him on a jump, to go up and track with Yuka and I, and he accepted.
The jump turned out to be exactly what I explained above, we went out I was on my back John was very close (inches) above and to my right, and Yuka (less experience) styed rather floatie and off to my left, I tried to maintain a speed and fall rate that would keep Yuka involved in the dive and still push him, and went through our pre determined pattern, John and I like I said stayey really close and we had a great jump, I was thinking to my self during the jump, man I'd never seen John smile so much...When we got down one of the first things he said to me was that it was a lot of fun for him watching my big shit eating grin, I hadn't even realized I was smiling. That proved to me that our chosen sport transends a lot of things, the action and purity is much bigger than the self. I consider that a great jump, and I was happy to share it with John, now we go back to our corners and try to better the sport and come up with better ways to improve safety, sales, efficency and all that sort of stuf so that everyone benefits. I think that may be my favorite thing about the sport, it is beyond who you are or what you do...doctor to grave digger, or where or who you work for.

Eitherway, I'm going to try to discuss some points in some of these posts, please keep telling me the pluses and negatives of what you think we are doing, not just Aerodyne, but manufacturers a lot of these post are directed at us (wich I do like) but I hope some of the other manufacturers read this thread and garner some ideas from the posts.

Sorry for being so long winded, I'm southern at heart

"Those who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt those who are doing it"

[dgskydive 0]

Aubrey, I think you have the right attitude. Listen to the people brother. What do they want? THat is what is going to sell stuff.

People want SERVICE, they want HONESTY, they want VALUE and they want SAFETY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SERVICE and HONESTY should go with out saying. Make the customer happy.

VALUE is preceived differently by everyone. To me it's..........am I getting a product made of the best available materials and the options that I want for a fair price. Weather anyone else sees that price as being to high or not. Some may see it as simply being the cheapest rig out there.

SAFETY is key to us all. Yes, there are risks in skydiving! We all take them with a smile........ but.
Do your best as a company to insure that you put the time and effort into putting out the safest equipment you can.


BYTCH said she thought there shouldn't be limited dealership. I disagree. I think it is better for the customer to have limited dealers. Much better. I will admit there are some inconvienences for the customer. Having to fax order forms and make phone calls. Instead of walking up face to face with some one, but let's face it. The majority of the skydiving community does not even have access to a proper gear store.
By keeping the dealers limited and introducing the ASIP program it does away with a lot of potentially pissed off people. By putting ASIP's at the DZ's and making them have recommendations from the DZ's and dealers, it insures as best as possible that knowledgable people will be talking abou the gear and helping them with there purchase. No trunk dealers or shady characters selling used gear as new (it happens!) to newbies.

Dom

[MarkM 0]

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If people need to replace items, like mains, that wear out, will they go with another of the same (that wore out) or try a different brand to see if it lasts longer? On the other hand, if it doesn't wear out, it doen't get replaced.

One way things get replaced is by coming out with a better product. Neptunes I bet are selling pretty well, even though there's absolutely nothing wrong with the old alti 2's and 3's. Aerodyne updated the Triathlon design a couple years ago and canopies sent in for relines where getting some of the mods, so I sent mine in for a reline even though it wasn't 100% due for one.

But would I buy a 2004 Triathlon to replace my 1996 Triathlon if my 1996 one was still in decent shape, even though the 2004 one might be better? No. But in 2 years if I decide to get an airlock canopy(everyone at my DZ is gaga over them right now), I'd buy an Aerodyne airlock(if they made one and the reviews were decent) over another company because my Triathlon has born the years out so well.

I see brand loyalty all over the place. People love their Wings, Mirages, Alti's and so on. I think you have to keep that by producing an awesome product that would last forever and won't go away over night, but then keep coming out with new toys so your customers are buying the upgrades.

[aubsmell 0]

Let me first start this by saying I want to comment on some of your points, some for expanded conversation, if I take a defensive standpoint it is not me defending Aerodyne or our practices, am intending to play devils advocate and inspire thought. Contrary, if I take an offensive standpoint, again I'm not trying to offend, just looking to expand ideas.

Sometimes some of the statements are great, but I may search for some more meat, such as how to realistically achieve these goals or put some of these programs into effect.

By being responsive to their wants and needs. Things like offering wingsuit mods on containers, having demo equipment available to all jumpers (not just those at boogies or big dz's) and constantly working to improve your products.

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By being responsive to their wants and needs. Things like offering wingsuit mods on containers,

That is true, I believe all the companies, should persue the cool and grovies, otherwise we will become stagnant, nobody wants the wonder hog even though I'm sure it still has a TSO, people want the V3M.
As for the winsuit mod, I have an email in to our head engineer (Dominic Hayhurst) to add that to their projects list, they may already working on it, as I haven't herd back from him yet.

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having demo equipment available to all jumpers (not just those at boogies or big dz's) and constantly working to improve your products.

This is a problem that plagues me, and all canopy manufacturers. And I really hope to hear some ideas on this from you guys, and I'll list some of my ideas that are not in effect and try to state some of the ones that are in effect. I'll also try to list some of the limitations, and why companies don't have a higher percentage of demo canopies.
Fly before you buy, what a great concept and I wouldn't even concider buying a canopy without jumping it first, some people will (and to be honest Aerodyne needs those people at this stage in the companies developement). But it is not as simple as test driving a car. When you go test drive a car if you like it you buy THAT car, if you don't and some one else drives it after you and like it the buy it as NEW, and it is legal to call it new because it has never been titled.
It's not the same with parachutes, if someone jumps it, even once, it is used and it is labeled a used demo (which makes people automatically think it has been ragged out) even if you go to sell a canopy that has been jumped three times, people say will you sell this demo, and even if you will they want x percent off. If you go ahead and sell it to them well, you have a little money in the till, but that is one more canopy you sold and your distributor didn't.
I think that PD has the best demo system, you may or may not know this but they actually have four demo systems. Each of which I have worked with at some level, and hope to have garnered the strenghts and weaknesses of each. 1. They have a full time employee who handles demos (Anabel, used to be Kolla) who takes demo requests, mails demos out to individuals, tracks them logs them in, scheduals maintenance and replacement, somewhat manages the person who inspects them upon their return, all that goes along with thse demos. There aer about +-300 demos in this program.
-Positives of this program, there are a lot of demos available, a lot go out and get jumped.
-negatives, it is very expensive, the cost of manufacturing for a canopy could be anywhere from 40-60% of the msrp, depending on the way you look at it, at the very least there are the raw material costs and shop time to build them lets work with with $800 cost for the canopy x300 thats $240,000 worth of canopies, and remember each time your are building a demo canopy, your not building a canopy that isn't for sale, an ordered one or stock one isn't being built. Plus the salery or time of the human managing the system and the time of the shippers shipping, recievers recieving and inspectors inspecting all for only $30 including that includes shipping.
Demo type 2. the Demo Center concept. (which is actually two types American distributors that have demos, and the true European Demo Centers) these are like this: In the US distributors buy substantially discounted canopies 40-50% off (sometimes but rarely they get them for free) and agree not to sell them for a determined ammount of time. People can go to the store and demo them or rent them. In Europe they have stratigically placed demo centers (usually dealers) who host a demo fleet, usually one of each size in each model and manage them, let them out there sometimes mail them.
-positives of this program, cuts out haveing to employ somone to manage them, you have demos that are geographically accessible for a motivated potential customer to get their hands on, one way or another. Not hugely expensive usually the most popular canopys at a center (20-30)
-negatives, they may end up sitting there not getting jumped, you have no direct control as a company, Joe Schmo wants a FXlocity 31 you are not there to say no. The person in charge of telling the customer about the canopy may not know the first thing about them, what market their intended for, they may have never even jumped them. "oh your an aspiring camera flyer, you want a soft opening canopy like the Sabre 1" Could spell bad news. "no I've never actually jumped, but I'm working my way through taxidermy school, I want to learn to stuff beavers"
The 4th method employed (remember the last one was two) is the Tour, it can work two ways the company sends people out to tour with demos, or gives canopies or containers to the opposite company to use with their products on tour (PD gives canopies to Sunpath, RWS gives containers to PD any combonation)
-Positives, it becomes an event it is something out of the ordinary at the DZ the reps are usually fairly heads up about the products, sometimes they give siminars or product specific classes. Everything is available to try usually. It usually generates real sales for the local distributor, is a draw to the event in the eyes of the DZ, sometimes the Manufacturer sends Sponsored people to organize jumps, that sort of thing.
-Negatives it is WAY expensive, The canopies are nominal usually 40-50 canopies, the parts and pieces are expensive though, Dbags $50, Risers $100, P/C $100, Carry bag $25...Per Canopy so the $800 demo becomes $1075. So the tour reps are hauling around like $100K worth of stuff with all the rigs and stuff. Then the real costs. Airline tickets, hotels, car rental, shipping of equipment, or Buying/Renting an RV. Employing someone to manage the Tour (who usually bitches constantly about being overworked and underpaid, who will work every weekend and holiday and day during the week too, loosing girlfriends and alianating family...oh that is just me) Either way very expensive.

It is such a huge catch 22, we want these things available to us. As I said earlier I won't buy a canopy without jumping it, but I look at a canopy and say man that is just bunch of nylon and rope why is it two freeking grand. It can't be worth more than a few hundred bucks to build (and we haven't even gone into test jumpers, staff engineers, R&D, TSO's many expensive things)

So lets explore options and limitations, and try to come up with some ideas to make demos more readily available, at least for a company starting out. I'd like to state I think PD is doing an excellent job and should roll with what they have. However maybe we can even come up with some better ideas.

Also, this is a focus on a manufacturers perspective, but how can we pull the Distributors and DZ's down into this one? Is it their responsibility to have demos of equipment there. Obviously a gear distributor would benefit from haveing demo/rental gear on site, Wouldn't you say it would be great if a DZ had one of each different types of systems there for it's customers to rent and to try, not just what they sell, the customer's interest first.

Again, I'll let you know, Aerodyne will sell any of our distributors demo gear for 50% off as long as they don't turn around and sell it, for one year. You'd think it makes sense every distributor would have one of every size so people can try it, they keep it for a year and then sell it for the price you paid for it, makes sense right? But it doesn't happen because there isn't a ton of money in this sport and even having only 1 complete system at the demo price $2000+ Cypress means you have a lot of cash hanging in breeze.

So concider the idea (and some manufacturers do this) sell dropzones Rental/Demo gear for a substantially discounted price say 50% so all dropzones have rentals gear, Say and Infinity Icarus combo, say they buy 10 so , if you go to a dropzone where you know they have this perticular combo you can try it, which is good for the gear manufacturs, good for the dz they get a rental fee. What are the Negatives, well if that dz has a 1 year do not sell, then after the end of that year they sell it all, the distributors then will miss out on new sales, because the market is saturated with that specific product, i.e. Infinities. The local distributor doesn't sell any more containers for a while, because you get really cheap 1 year old Infinities, The infinitiy distributors local or national maybe miss new sales because the dz puts them on line or whatever. Then if the people who buy these products have problems they have little recourse and go back directly to the manufacturers, who then have to employ more customer service people or take the time away from building new stuff (production time issues) to fix small problems that can often be fixed by a good distributor.

An idea to use this idea of the rental/demo rig owned by dz's, sell them at x ammount say 50% they can't sell for a year, in one year they have the option to keep it and continue to use it as a demo rental, or Sell it only to an authorized distributor of that product for 35% of the origionl retail value, keep it 18 months and they can keep it as a demo/rental or sell it to a distributor for 25% of the origional msrp, keep it for 30 months they can sell it to end users at any price they can get, fair market?

Does that sound reasonable?

How about some eager businessman wanted a parachute demo business. Say they proposed to a company like PD. I'll buy all their used crusty demo canopies for $300 apiece, and agree not to sell them, 300x300 you get them all for 90k, and manage them, charge $50 apiece for demos shipped out for a weekend, do 100 a week make $260K a year, set up your own tour, work in conjunction with a large distributor get a percentagte of every sale you send to them, say you do this with four products. That managed correctly with a decent initial investment could be a viable business. Set up a rigging service, to maintain the canopies, employ riggers and become a factory authorized service center for some companies. I'm sure all the manufacturers would rather focus on being designers and manufacturers, than sales and marketing companies. But now they are integrated out of necessity.

I'd really like to hear some good ideas to get these demos out there? Realistic ones that take into account that parachutes are products consisting of parts and labor and have to be paid for with profit. I'm sure there is a good method.

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Going to a direct dealership setup rather than the limited number of distributorships. As a small gear store owner it's not worth my time or effort to sell your products because I can't get the kind of discount from your distributors that I can from the other manufacturers.

I certainly see your point here, which I can appriciate, and every manufacturer has different requirements for distributorship. We have a very small number of distributers (honestly I feel it is too big) and we have difficult standards to become a distributor.

We all want to sell more stuff, but if we were going to go to a anyone who asks for distributorship gets it at the top level we wouldn't be able to maintain customer service standards.
(again I want to reinforce that nothing I say here is directed at any one person or company, I see from your profile your are a gear distributor, I believe you uset to work for Square one, we've met)

A question: Why shouldn't we go direct. We sell to our distributors at 30% + incentive, why not hire three more people as sales staff and go direct to the public at a price equal to 30% off of retail. I can give my answers, but I woud rather hear everyone elses.

If you want to become a Toyota distributor, do you call up South East toyota, and say ahhh, I'd like to be able to buy your Toyotas at your whole sale cost, I'm just a little guy so I may only sell 10 this year, but I want the same rate as the Orlando Toyota (Meanwhile Orlando Toyota sells 700 a month and has the number one Toyota service center in the country, and don't even charge their customers for oil changes if they buy the car there and they get it washed for free on Saturdays)

Or Mcdonalds, if you want to start a McDonalds franchise you have to have a net worth of $100,000,000 and it can't be inherited, you have to prove yourself as a business entitiy first, because they don't want you to fail, they don't want you to run out of milkshake mix because you didn't realize that you have to order more in June than you did in November.

I get requestes every week, from people who send an email saying, "I'm thinking about starting a distributorship at x can I have distributor applicaiton"

Have you ever run a business before...often "No"
Are you a Rigger, or do you employ one..."No"
Do you have a store where people can come and see different gear...a place with literature on all the brands that you sell....often "No"
What kind of investment capital do yo have to insure that your business will be a success....."I''ll have what I make if you give me that for 35% off and I sell it for 25%.

In my opinion the entire industry (oh I'm going to get killed for this) has set up some sort of a welfare state. And it is a function of greed from the manufacturers standpoint. (I'm really sitting here thinking I shouldn't post this but I want to have an honest open candid discussion) We are so eager to sell stuff any way we can we'll often let anyone sell it. I think this is a major disservice to the customers.
I got my first rig from a combonation of dealers just like this, being the cheap skate I am, I got a Dolphin, RavenII, PD230 combo for a great deal, great deal my ass, I got taken, that shit should have been decomissioned years before, neither of the people selling me this knew shit about me or cared what my goals were, they just wanted to get rid of the stuff.
By letting sooo many people sell your stuff, it is hard for any of them to make an actual living doing it. Instead of having 300 people making 10K a year I'd rather have 30 making 100k a year. Because you can't live on 10k and if you squeak by you don't have much left over to take care of the customers. I'd rather make it very competitive to become a distributor so that only get the finest business people selling your product corectly. Taking the best care of your customers.
Now how do you do this and still gain market penetration in a sport like ours, so small 100,000 world wide and spread very thin, that is the hard part. Any thoughts?

Okay, I'm going to have to take some more time to reflect on some of the other posts, this is only the first one.

"Those who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt those who are doing it"

[aubsmell 0]

Hi Jim,
You have some good points here.

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These "full price people" are the bread and butter of the industry. Keep them happy. An "Airspeed mod" or a "Magik Mod" on the order sheet, marked as "Free" goes a loooong way.

That is a way cool idea, and if we ever get some ideas like this from our ASIP guys or if we sponsor any Athlets I'll snake this idea maybe I'll call it the .........team mod the RevJim price $0

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Don't advertise "who" you sponsor. Really. People see loads and loads of one particular rig or main at a DZ, but none are emblazoned with huge logos or special "Factory team colors". This gives the impression that this item is popular, not flooded by sponsorships. Those monstor PD and Icarus logos on the teams canopies? Ugh.

That is a good way to look at it clandestin sponsorship: "boy deland sure has a ton of velocities flying around, I think I'm going to buy one too, just like these guys did" I could see that working. I know in high school I really wanted Ugg boots because I saw them everywhere, now looking back those people had to be given those boots as ugly as they were, I'm glad I didn't spend the money.

However I think that one of the major reasons that manufacturers put those big logos on, well one is just to get the name out there, and two for magazine photos, getting a photo in the mag of your hotshot under his free canopy is great "free" advertising, considering that to run an add cost a more than a grand plus add production fees.

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The status quo here is not really a bad thing. Value, especially now that the economy has really tanked, is of greatest importance. Making the options cheap add ons, or just including most of the minor ones can make the difference between brand X and brand Y.

I agree with you here, but you'll see in my posts that are going to dance around this thread, some of the things are really expensive in the production of these items, things you have to factor in, design (that's staff guys with big fat educations), testing (that's a lot of jump tickets) actual production a lot of it can't be automated it takes real people sewing, then the promotion of the products.

However, as you can see with our equpment our prices are a little lower mainly because we manufacture off shore. Which can bring up a million problems and questions. PD builds some of their canopies off shore too, I'll be interested to see where they go in the next few years. On the plus side of our facility we have been building parachutes in that factory for close to 30 years, so they've work out a lot of the kinks. I'm going to try not to speak to much about Aerodyne in my posts, just to keep it generic. If anyone has any questions about what we do or how we do it feel free to contact me personally.

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You are here in the first place. That's right #1. I also see very little of the "Ours is better/stronger/safer than theirs" type advertisements. This is also a good thing. Keep it up.

I agree with this too, most skydivers have owned stuff from a lot of companies. I've owned PD, Icarus (sort of) Precision, Dolphin, Javelin, Mirage and now Aerodyne. I'm sure I could tell you one good thing and one bad thing about all of them, but I believe that each company was doing their best. No one sets out to do something half ass, or hurt people.

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Market share is a good thing. Market domination, not so good. I loooove my PD reserve. It's popular. This dictates a higher price, at least lately. This also means that my next rig will probably not have a pd reserve in it. Economics, remember? I'm going for the cheaper one, pure and simple.

I agree that market domination is not a good thing, competition breads mental stimulation which produces smarter, better, more efficent business. Also product developement. I do have high hopes for the company that employees me, but I wouldn't cry a single tear if someone invented the Levetron 2000 tomorrow and made parachutes containers completely obsolete ever again, I'd buy a Levetron and see if the company needed a sales rep. Change is good and revolution is better. Until then I think it should be the goal of every company to try to do the absolute best it can, it is the American way. (not to insinuate that you should do that at the expense of the individual)

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There is a double edge sword you are wielding here. We have a general average of about 35,000 active skydivers. Some quit, some start and stay with it, but that's about the average. To sell more, people are either downsizing, starting (used for many), or buying second/third/ect rigs. If people need to replace items, like mains, that wear out, will they go with another of the same (that wore out) or try a different brand to see if it lasts longer? On the other hand, if it doesn't wear out, it doen't get replaced. Tough call. Market to the newbies, and accentuate with your high end lines.

This is great and inspired though from me. I'm going to stick to the market to newbies thing instead of the make cheaper more line....

When I first started working for a manufacturer, I had a conversation about the market, market size, and market share of the company I was with (PD at the time), this conversation was with the Vice President of Channel Sales for the Intel Corporation.

I explained, it's a parachute company, not focused on the military, it is really a niche market about 100,000 world wide give or take, here in the US we have about 70% of the market, abroad probibly a little less. I askes, do you have any ideas for me, how can I gain more market, she was blown away. She said something that stuck with me though.

She said, you don't need more market share, you need to focus your marketing on making more customers. We need to create the market. you need to create a feeder system.

College baseball teams have the little league...were do we go to get our future skydivers. For manufacturers where do we go toget our future customers?

Here is another business idea. Create a company that sells skydiving. Not parachutes, not containers, not lift tickets, not suits and goggles. But the concept.

Build a solid business plan:
you go to town A, make a deal with DZ A (probibly not a dz in that town or you'll eat all their future tandem customers) go there and paper the town like a circus is coming, create some P.T. Barnum type hoopla 1/2 price skydives june 14 in town A, Wind tunnel on sight, (a roming wind tunnel that visits high schools 1 month before graduation, colleges, military bases, give out cupons for half price tanems at the nearest skydiving center)

Go to the manufacturers get funding for the Tour, not to demo products but to mold people into skydivers. Only so many people are going to look in the phone book after making that drunk promise to go do a skydive, and actually go.

I really think that wouldn't be a bad idea, all the companies bonding together to concieve a plan to go out there and make skydivers.

It could work!

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Wow, double meaning here. LOL
What makes skydiving atractive to me? The people. Really. I've participated in many sports, but this is the only one where no matter where I go, I'm made to feel like family. Try that with golf or bowling.
This could also mean what makes skydiving expensive though, and that also goes back to the gear mfgs. $15 to $20 a jump we can swallow. $2000 + for nylon, $1500 + for cordura and an optional $1000+ for an AAD is alot harder to swallow.
Marketing vs. price. It's a difficult decision. A new Mirage will demand well over 2 grand with decent options. How would a rig with the exact same options sell at half the price? Would demand increase? Would demand increase enough to cover the difference in profit margin? What if the profit margin alone was cut in half? What would demand do? Personally, if I could get a top of the line rig, like the G4 Mirage, for half the price or slightly more, chances are I would buy two. He with the most toys, right?

It would be hard, but check out some stuff out there, I like the way we are going one price for all the popular options, takes a lot of the guess work out, we know you want articulation, we know you want stainless steel, we are less than some, more than some, but we are nearly complete, I'm not just talking about the Aerodyne stuff, keep your eyes open, some of the other guys are quite competitive too.

thanks for talking to me

"Those who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt those who are doing it"

[skybytch 267]

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Also, this is a focus on a manufacturers perspective, but how can we pull the Distributors and DZ's down into this one? Is it their responsibility to have demos of equipment there.

I think yes, dealers/distributors should have demo equipment available. Not only is it good for their customers I feel it shows a commitment to the industry - generally a "trunk of the car" dealer isn't going to make that kind of investment (I'll get into the subject of "trunk of the car" gear dealers later).

Having worked for Square One, which imho has the best "demo program" out there for the customers of their three retail stores, I thoroughly understand how difficult it is to set up, stock and maintain a demo program and I also understand the value of having such a demo program. From a gear dealers standpoint, having demo gear available creates sales that may not have occured had the customer not been able to jump what they were interested in.

When I took over my store six months ago there was nothing available for rental or demo. One of my first moves was to purchase several demo helmets (since helmets are far cheaper than rigs...); those helmets paid for themselves through helmet sales very quickly. I'm currently building our first rental/demo rig - but it's harder to justify the expense of purchasing that equipment than it was the helmets due to the low profit margin that dealers have on canopies and containers. In some cases I make more profit selling a helmet than I do a canopy!

This isn't going to stop me from building a rental/demo "fleet" but it does limit how fast that fleet will be built (like you mentioned, there isn't a ton of money to be made in this industry, therefore there isn't a lot of money available to purchase demo equipment). The cost of the equipment also limits which products will be a part of that fleet; since the primary rental/demo customer is newer jumpers I'm less likely to invest in two Katana 120's than I am in two Sabre2 190's.

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We are so eager to sell stuff any way we can we'll often let anyone sell it. I think this is a major disservice to the customers.

I agree 100%. I also think it's a major disservice to "legitimate" gear dealers - those with storefronts, inventory, knowledgable employees and strong commitments to customer service.

When I was working at Square One I thought your limited distributorships were a great idea. As someone who is now striving to build a "legitimate" gear store I can see the other side. Correct me if I'm wrong, but to me it appears that even though I have a storefront, am a rigger, have a few years of gear sales experience and a little bit of experience running a business - because I wasn't in my current position when Aerodyne initially set up your distributor program I have no hope of being added to that list (unless of course I become say... Square Four - hey a girl can dream! ).

Consider how easy it is to set up a "gear store" online and run the "business" out of a garage - that's the "trunk of the car" dealer of the new millenium. Since they don't have much if anything in the way of overhead and generally can't offer much in the way of customer service, they can compete on price. In doing so they reduce the value of the products they are selling - and take sales away from the people who have made an investment in their businesses (and thus, imho, the sport as a whole).

So... tying the two subjects together... a suggestion. While I have problems with one manufacturer's business practices (no names mentioned) I do kind of like the fact that to get a dealership with them you have to buy a couple of demo canopies.

Thanks again for posting this thread. I'm enjoying reading everyone's responses, and I'm sure I'll be posting again to it later after I spend more time thinking about it.

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[ACMESkydiver 0]

Hey Aubrey I sent you an e-mail a while ago about what I thought would be cool and innovative in a manufacturer...gear designed for women's shapes. I don't know how many female skydivers are out there, but man would this be a step ahead...

The chest strap seems to be a fairly standard issue with most women I know that jump...too high, too low, not comfortable, needs to be modified to be right...

I'd love to see a company take this to heart.

(But I'm still plenty stoked to see mine when it gets here!! )

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[PhreeZone 20]

Aubrey I just read, then re-read your posts. A few thoughts from me on the demo/marketing programs and thoughts in general.

Most new skydivers will look to thier instructors to see what they are jumping and use that to help make their decision in what gear they look at buying. Seeing an instuctor with X container, Y main and Z AAD. Your current instructor program is an excellent way to target that market and get the word on the street about the product. Using the program in this way is going to add to your bottom line at the start since there are small sales and then full price sales later from the new market of jumpers.

I have seen sponsored people ditch their sponsors at the first chance from another company to have a better package for themself. The issue I see with this is company loyality. If A company can't even pick reps that are loyal to their product, then why should I spend my hard earned money on a product that people won't stick with even if they are given it for free/at a large discount? This one annoys the piss out of me and the only answer I can come up with is that you make the jumpers pay up front and give them $ back each month they stay on the sponsorship. Eventually if they are truely loyal the gear is free and its a win/win. If they jump ship all the time then you still have the money that you have'nt paid back to them and they did'nt get a free ride for nothing.

One thing that you might use as additional marketing/sales driver is to create such a strong impression in new students minds that they can't forget your product. Offering student/tandem canopies with the logo on the bottom for free (or even discout the canopy) can add a lot to the product visability and create loyality. If a student remembers looking up at their canopy and they only know it by its colors what loyality is being formed there? But if they look up and see your logo on the bottom of their canopy then the roots of loyality are formed right there. If they can associate your name with their early experiences that are successful then they already looking forward to their next great experience like that.

Something else that you might want to consider doing again is a trade up program to drive loyality. For example trade in a old Tri for $XXX off a new canopy. This provides a value no matter what for old canopies and it drives loyality to incite people to look at staying with your products more since they will save some $. Side benifit to this is you get to see canopies coming back in that normally would have been turned into car covers so that you can examine them to see if there are points that could be improved. For example if it takes 2000 jumps to show that the bartacks on the canopy wear more at the A lines then anywhere else, but s simple change could prevent that... then you are getting R&D feedback canopies too in the end. Side spin off could be a program like PA used with the GroundZero launch and offer $XXX off of a new canopy if you trade in a competitors canopy.

For the demo programs how about a program similar to how Birdman does it where dealers are awarded points based on each sale of a new canopy. Then they can cash in the points for discounts off demo gear (make this a big rule), but if the dealer can build up enough points then they can cash them in for a free canopy. Make it a sliding scale where 2 or 3 sales get them a minimal discount but it takes 25-30 sales to get a free canopy.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[aubsmell 0]

You have some really great ideas, thanks.

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I have seen sponsored people ditch their sponsors at the first chance from another company to have a better package for themself. The issue I see with this is company loyality. If A company can't even pick reps that are loyal to their product, then why should I spend my hard earned money on a product that people won't stick with even if they are given it for free/at a large discount? This one annoys the piss out of me and the only answer I can come up with is that you make the jumpers pay up front and give them $ back each month they stay on the sponsorship. Eventually if they are truely loyal the gear is free and its a win/win. If they jump ship all the time then you still have the money that you have'nt paid back to them and they did'nt get a free ride for nothing.

This is true, and I've thought about it a good bit. I get at least three sponsorship requests a week from people who have never even seen our stuff with their own eyes. I try to answer them all, so far all negative, but the first thing I think is this guy doesn't care what he get as long as he gets it for free. That bothers me. And I'll almost never go for it. On the flip, I had a guy demo and buy a complete system from me in January, then he heard about the ASIP and said "man I'd love to be part of that" So of course I was waiting for him to ask if he could get a refund and take part in the program, but he just said "Do I have to buy another one at 50% to be part of the program?" Of course I told him no, he is an instructor and I'd love to have him, and that makes me want to give him more stuff, I gave him a wind blade for his dropzone.

I don't think it would work to charge them first, you do sponsor teams, usually to help them out, like I said to get your stuff out there but also, so that they can have more money to train, it is an expensive sport and if you are a serious competitor, it can be a huge financial burden, I mean think when you go to the drop zone and make 10 jumps in a weekend that is $200 these guys are sometimes trying to make 1500 a year and wind tunnel, even working deals with the dz, wind tunnel, coaching it is still hard to scrape by, unless you are the extreem top of the top.

With our program for instructors, at least it is trackable, after a year we'll see did you refer anyone, did you answer my emails, did you send any pictures, did you give back, NO, well no more free soup for you....you did, well here is you deliciious free soup.

Now coming up with a system equivalent for atheletes is the trick. I don't think it can be the same, but there has to be some accountability.

I've had the argument with some sponsored guys (he's probably reading this too) he says, if tiger woods is sponsored he automatically gets the clubs free, that is the given, they what. Well I just saw a show when tiger woods wears a new piece of clothing on a televised weekend event, Nike sells 40 million worth of that article within one month following. We give away a full system 4k how many people go and buy one just because they see that guy wearing it? Maybe 10 in a year, so we make total profit somewhere around 10k, the margins in this sport are suprisingly low. That is why PD, the biggest company in the business, has it's stately corporate offices in a windowless corrogated metel building, and it's owner drives a toyota. We are not going to make a gozillian dollers here, not in the sport world.

I think to build sponsorship loyalty is a good thing, but human nature is to progress, and if someone feels they are progressing from brand x to brand y. It may be the best thing for both. It frees up brand x to find someone else who may be more excited about their stuff, rather than having someone who is still there just because they have always been.

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One thing that you might use as additional marketing/sales driver is to create such a strong impression in new students minds that they can't forget your product. Offering student/tandem canopies with the logo on the bottom for free (or even discout the canopy) can add a lot to the product visability and create loyality. If a student remembers looking up at their canopy and they only know it by its colors what loyality is being formed there? But if they look up and see your logo on the bottom of their canopy then the roots of loyality are formed right there. If they can associate your name with their early experiences that are successful then they already looking forward to their next great experience like that.

This is a fucking rad idea, don't be supprised if you see this one in action. (however it is expensive to do those bottom skin designs, so no promises) I guess I like being a fly in the onitment sometimes. but I like the idea, you put your logo on sponsored guys, I put mine on students. Who is looking after who.

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Something else that you might want to consider doing again is a trade up program to drive loyality. For example trade in a old Tri for $XXX off a new canopy. This provides a value no matter what for old canopies and it drives loyality to incite people to look at staying with your products more since they will save some $. Side benifit to this is you get to see canopies coming back in that normally would have been turned into car covers so that you can examine them to see if there are points that could be improved. For example if it takes 2000 jumps to show that the bartacks on the canopy wear more at the A lines then anywhere else, but s simple change could prevent that... then you are getting R&D feedback canopies too in the end. Side spin off could be a program like PA used with the GroundZero launch and offer $XXX off of a new canopy if you trade in a competitors canopy.

Idea, like you said, it's been done. I like the R&D spin, it has made me consider thinking of other motivations to get old canopies back, but not the trade in.

The big problem with this is then I become a retailer, or I'm selling directly, If I do this I'll be snaking business from my distributors. I want them to make money, so they can better service their customers, as I've said before.

and the competitor product trade in, that is when that car cover you mentioned, suddenly becomes an object of barter.

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For the demo programs how about a program similar to how Birdman does it where dealers are awarded points based on each sale of a new canopy. Then they can cash in the points for discounts off demo gear (make this a big rule), but if the dealer can build up enough points then they can cash them in for a free canopy. Make it a sliding scale where 2 or 3 sales get them a minimal discount but it takes 25-30 sales to get a free canopy.

This is a good idea, I'm going to ask Jari about the details of how he has this set up. We do have something similar. We have a rebate program for our distributors, sort of like a forced savings account with us, we pay it out twice a year, and of course prior to paying them money, I say would't you like some nice demo producet at 50%, usually they tell me to get bent, it's Christmas time. Sometimes it works. As our products gain more popularity, I think it will work better.

You sound like a smart muther, way better grammer and spelling than me. Thanks for the input, I do really appriciate it.

"Those who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt those who are doing it"

[aubsmell 0]

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Hey Aubrey I sent you an e-mail a while ago about what I thought would be cool and innovative in a manufacturer...gear designed for women's shapes. I don't know how many female skydivers are out there, but man would this be a step ahead...

The chest strap seems to be a fairly standard issue with most women I know that jump...too high, too low, not comfortable, needs to be modified to be right...

Sorry I never sent you an email back about that idea. I did forward it on to our design guys, right now we are concidering the higher/lower thing and maybe offering an option with the articulated chest. like for women "do you want it above, below?" kind of thing, but you were talking about an X type configuration, which to me sounds like you would be putting your Tits (notice how that is capitalized, proper noun) in boobie prison. which in some way, on some women I would like to see, but ther is the question of comfort there.

My point in replying to this post, is that I really liked getting your idea, and just because I didn't get back to you, don't think it didn't go anywhere. This has stimulated me to contact our web guy, what I want to do is set up an account Ideas@aerodyne-int.com, again just kicking around ideas. So that people have a place to send their ideas, because a smart company neeeeeeds to listen to thier customers. I would be willing to bet that 80% of the people out there are smarter than me....I have a Criminoology degree.

It is all of our sport, we should progress to make it, better, cheaper, safer all that stuff.

I bet I go to the Bushman (my boss) with 50 ideas a week that he tells me to go get bent. But it is the 51st that counts, so you never know the more suggestions the better.

"Those who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt those who are doing it"

[BlindBrick 0]

First, let me very freely admit that I am biased on this, but regarding sponorship I believe that there should be a lot more emphasis on college teams/clubs. It's been my experience that generally our "sponorship" is just the bulk discount price.

I feel that this is a missed oppertunity because 1. a quality sponorship is likely to form lifelong brand loyalty which is not an inconsiderable thing when you consider that college jumpers tend to be younger(ie have a longer purchasing lifetime) and 2. College teams have an enormous impact on a large pool of potential customers, other college students. Though most of my team(myself included) are relatively low-time, the whuffo's on campus put a lot of stock into our opinions.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Why exactly do you feel that sponsoring a group of inexperienced skydivers in a college club is any better than sponsoring the instructors at the nearest dropzone, which generally always advertise on campus anyway?

[Shark 0]

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Why exactly do you feel that sponsoring a group of inexperienced skydivers in a college club is any better than sponsoring the instructors at the nearest dropzone, which generally always advertise on campus anyway?

Exactly!

[diablopilot 2]

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I don't think it would work to charge them first, you do sponsor teams, usually to help them out, like I said to get your stuff out there but also, so that they can have more money to train, it is an expensive sport and if you are a serious competitor, it can be a huge financial burden, I mean think when you go to the drop zone and make 10 jumps in a weekend that is $200 these guys are sometimes trying to make 1500 a year and wind tunnel, even working deals with the dz, wind tunnel, coaching it is still hard to scrape by, unless you are the extreem top of the top.

One method for teams wanting sponsorship I found useful when woking for a jumpsuit manufacturer was to offer incentives. I would sell them suits at a discount then offer the incentives in two ways:

1) Incentives on sales. Have your name attached to X number of sales buy the customers, and you recieve free suits the following year.

2) Competion incentives. Place or medal in specific competitions (Nationals) for and recieve a partial or total refund on what we charged for the suits originaly.

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