Hard opening solution

[MikeTB 0]

Houch !
I got some hard opening after wing suit flights and wondering if someone can tel me how much diference will be in comparison of the following setting. How much longer you think it is with a sail slider insted of a mesh one?
Any inpput will be apreciated.

Actual:
Rock Dragon 266
Slider gate (2 wraps)
Primary stow (1 wraps)
Mesh slider
Vented zp36 pilot shute

To try:
Rock Dragon 266
Slider gate (2 wraps)
Primary stow (1 wraps)
Sail slider
Same pilot shute

Thanks in advance
Mike

[TomAiello 25]

Are you using the direct control stow?

I've found that a tight direct control stow is the most effective way to slow a slider up opening.

Also, is your mesh slider fine mesh (marquisette) or large hole mesh?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JaapSuter 0]

Are you using a large or small mesh (marquisette) slider?

Are you using the original sized slider that was made for the Rock Dragon, or a custom one? I believe Jimmy has experimented with different sizes, although I think that was more for the subterminal range.

From your setup it doesn't seem like you are using direct control, and only loose indirect control. Direct control might stage your opening sequence better, keeping the slider up there just a tad longer. Might be worth trying.

But then again, I only have about ten terminal jumps with a BASE rig so I don't really know much. Probably wait till the experts chime in...

As to your actual question, In BASE I'll take a hard opening over a snivel any day. So no sail for me..

[MikeTB 0]

My slider is a large hole mesh one. But I ordered in the same time a sail slider so now i'm wondering the impact of using it instead of the mesh one. Could you elaborate a bit on the direct control stow. Not sure exactly what you mean.

Thanks

[TomAiello 25]

Direct control is when you use a rubber band girth hitched (aka larksheaded) to the center C attachment point, and you wrap it around a the very center of the slider. The idea is to stage your deployment so that the slider cannot begin to descend while the lines are still slack. This is partly the same thing that the main locking stow in the tail pocket does, and this function is why the locking stow is also referred to as "indirect slider control."

In my experience, the more slider you pull through the rubber band, and the tighter you wrap it, the slower your opening will be.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[d_goldsmith 1]

The way I was shown was to attach a rubber band to a center C line, usually opposite the tail gate. (stick it through the hole on the line attachment point and larks head it).

Then when you pack slider up you can take the center of the slider and wrap that rubber band around it to hold it up during deployment.

Not sure what people think as far as how many wraps, and I only have 2 slider up jumps.

[d_goldsmith 1]

What he said, he's the one that showed me ;)

[d_goldsmith 1]

http://www.basewiki.com/wiki/pmwiki.php/Packing/DirectControl

[MikeTB 0]

Quote

Direct control is when you use a rubber band girth hitched (aka larksheaded) to the center C attachment point, and you wrap it around a the very center of the slider. The idea is to stage your deployment so that the slider cannot begin to descend while the lines are still slack. This is partly the same thing that the main locking stow in the tail pocket does, and this function is why the locking stow is also referred to as "indirect slider control."

In my experience, the more slider you pull through the rubber band, and the tighter you wrap it, the slower your opening will be.

Thanks
This is what I mean by slider gate.
I will try one or two more wraps.....

[MikeTB 0]

Quote

Quote

Direct control is when you use a rubber band girth hitched (aka larksheaded) to the center C attachment point, and you wrap it around a the very center of the slider. The idea is to stage your deployment so that the slider cannot begin to descend while the lines are still slack. This is partly the same thing that the main locking stow in the tail pocket does, and this function is why the locking stow is also referred to as "indirect slider control."

In my experience, the more slider you pull through the rubber band, and the tighter you wrap it, the slower your opening will be.

Thanks
This is what I mean by slider gate.
I will try one or two more wraps.....

The rubber band I have is on the slider. Not on the C line center. Is this the same?

[d_goldsmith 1]

What do you attach it too?

I'm pretty sure the idea of a slider gate it to control the control lines, not to keep the slider up. DirectControl doesn't have anything to do with controling your control lines.

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

The rubber band I have is on the slider. Not on the C line center. Is this the same?

No.

The rubber band on the trailing edge of the slider is intended to take a bight of the control lines, to promote nose first slider up inflation. Another way to do this (and a better way, in my opinion) is to sew a tailgate into the trailing edge of the slider, and close that around the control lines.

The rubber band on the C line attachment connects only the C line attachment point and the slider apex. It's purpose is to hold the slider up until the canopy begins to experience bottom skin expansion (which ought to be after the lines have gone tight), for better staging of the opening.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

This is what I mean by slider gate.

The term slidergate is used for two different things, but direct control is not one of them.

Slidergate was originally used to name the piece of rubberband attached to the center of the slider to which you put your steering lines (and not the center Cs and Ds, as opposed to the tailgate). It was used by Vertigo and Consolidated Rigging although Consolidated Rigging later discontinued it because they were were concerned it distorted the trim of the canopy during inflation too much. The slider that came with my original Vertigo Rockdragon still had the slidergate loop on it. I've only used it once.

More information on that use of the term slidergate can be found here: http://www.basewiki.com/wiki/pmwiki.php/Packing/Slidergate

These days, most people use the term slidergate to refer to a tailgate sewn to the middle of the slider, which is then used as a regular tailgate (containing all the tailgate lines).

There has been concern that such a tailgate could be a risk on large hole mesh sliders because it can poke through a hole in the mesh, deforming the slider. As far as I know, no manufacturer actively recommends using a tailgate this way (also because many think that the slider alone does enough reefing already on a properly packed canopy, removing the need for a tailgate). On the other hand, some people hold the opinon that worrying about the tailgate poking through your large mesh slider is like worrying about running out of toiletpaper when you don't even have to take a dump; i.e, a petty concern.

Ofcourse you could always use masking tape instead of a tailgate.

Quote

I will try one or two more wraps.....

Here's the link above linkified: http://www.basewiki.com/wiki/pmwiki.php/Packing/DirectControl

I personally put a half-rubber band (same as my tailgate rubber bands) on both center C attachment points. I'm not sure if it matters, but symmetry gives me that warm and fuzzy feeling.

Again, take all this with a grain of salt. This is just me pretending I know what I'm talking about, which I don't.

I highly recommend ordering a small-mesh slider for your Rock Dragon before you try using the sail slider. They're cheap, they work great.

[d_goldsmith 1]

It was recommended to me to not use a tailgate while packing slider up because the tailgate could become entangled with the mesh slider and prevent it from decending.

If the tailgate was attached to the slider though, why would it matter if it became entangled with the slider?

Is it possible that a slidergate could tangle in a way that it would lock the control lines closed and lock the slider in place somehow?

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

It was recommended to me to not use a tailgate while packing slider up because the tailgate could become entangled with the mesh slider and prevent it from decending.

Ah yes.

A valid concern in my opinion. Not because of its seriousness, but because there are so many equally cheap and easy solutions that don't have this problem.

But as mentioned above, some people will argue you're a douchebag worrying about such little things. I'm not one of them though...

Quote

Is it possible that a slidergate could tangle in a way that it would lock the control lines closed and lock the slider in place somehow?

I suppose, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

[d_goldsmith 1]

Once I gain faith in masking tape, I'll stick to that for line control, and direct control to keep my slider in place (indirect control also of course).

[jtholmes 0]

Be sure to take a fist sized or slightly bigger bite of lines on that first line stow, perhaps that is what you call the primary stow (the one that goes under the tailpocket) and DOUBLE wrap it with a thick rubber band, and replace that rubber band as it shows wear with nice new thick tan rubber band.This is effective in preventing the strangely hard openings.

that is a must do.

also, go with a f111 pilot chute, and 36 is pretty big, so do not use that big of a PC unless you are wingsuiting. otherwise go with preferably a 32inch f111 PC or a 32 inch ZP.

it is easy to do the direct stow ineffectively, so if you are relying on that it may not work everytime, although it can work very well, and if you do do that part ineffectively the double wrapped under tailpocket stow will still put you in the realm of perhaps hard but not brutal opening. The smaller PC also helps a ton.

you gotta double wrap that one under the tailpocket, it is a no brainer.

with that big of a ZP PC, vented canopy and no double wrapped understow... you are just asking for it.

[maretus 0]

Quote

also, go with a f111 pilot chute, and 36 is pretty big, so do not use that big of a PC unless you are wingsuiting. otherwise go with preferably a 32inch f111 PC or a 32 inch ZP.

When I was buying my first canopy (265 Troll) I was advised by Robi to consider a bigger PC for terminal jumps since the I have pretty big and therefore heavy canopy. I've been jumping my terminal jumps with mostly 36ZP, couple with 36F111 and few with 32ZP. To be honest, I haven't really noticed significant difference in hardness of those openings so I've been sticking with my 36. Totally agree on the tight double wrap on the primary stow though, that should do the trick.

http://www.ufufreefly.com

[base283 0]

Primary stow one wrap?
Who the hell taught you that crap?
One wrap aint much better than no primary stow.
Check your sources.
take care,
space

[TomAiello 25]

Watching opening video, I can really tell the difference between slider down with and without the primary stow. However, the difference between 1, 2 or 3 wraps of the primary stow is very difficult to notice.

Can you tell me more about what you have observed in these cases?

Thanks!

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[MikeTB 0]

Thanks for the inputs.

I will double wrap the primary stow and find out in detail how to set up the direct control of the slider.
Test jump should be done this weekend

Very thanks to all people that took time to provide some inputs.
See ya !!

MikeTB

[base283 0]

Quote

Watching opening video, I can really tell the difference between slider down with and without the primary stow. However, the difference between 1, 2 or 3 wraps of the primary stow is very difficult to notice.

I agree with your observations. Extended FF (slider up 5r's or more) are a different beast. The slider must stay up until after line stretch for a smooth opening. 1 wrap may allow this. 2 wraps insure. 3 wraps seems pointless.
What diff did you notice in slider down with and without the primary stow?
take care,
space

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

What diff did you notice in slider down with and without the primary stow?

The canopy begins expanding as it moves to line stretch noticeably more. I worry that this could throw slack lines around, potentially resulting in a tension knot. I think it will also yield a harder (but not necessarily faster) opening, because the jumper will be stopped much more abruptly when he smacks the end of the lines with the canopy already expanding over him.

The primary stow appears to work very well to stage the opening, giving you "line stretch => bottom skin expansion" rather than "bottom skin expansion => or = line stretch."'

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[crwper 7]

Hey Tom,

I usually wrap the lines in the primary stow pretty lightly, since I'm (probably unnecessarily) worried about having a "primary stow hangup". I'm sure my primary stow is not as effective as it could be, and your post has me thinking this might be a very useful area to improve.

I'm not too eager to be a test-jumper on that one, and am curious if anyone has done much experimenting with how many times they wrap the primary stow. What kind of rubber band do you use there? Large/small? Tan/black-death?

Michael

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

What kind of rubber band do you use there? Large/small? Tan/black-death?

Anyone using tube stows?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com