Twin Falls Opinions: The Beginning of the End?

[Colm 1]

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but will your response be accurate?

Touche- The editorial makes several points. Some of them are valid, some are not. Before I complete my response to them, I will be sure to carefully consider the angle.

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the editorial sounds as if they wish to charge organizers of the larger events, not the quiet, daily jumpers. it would be easy to charge the person overseeing an event (or people packing at the visitor's center).

They say exactly this:

"The simplest and fairest solution, for starters at least, might be to charge BASE jumpers a modest use fee--say, $10 per person per day."

I read back and checked the context, and it is not very clear to me that they only imply this charge in the context of an organized event.

Furthermore, what constitutes an organized event? If your charity group coordinates shutdown of a traffic lane, ok that is organized. But is memorial day an organized event? That's debatable. Who's the organizer? If I "organize" myself and 3 buddies to take a trip there during the summer, is that organized? I dispute your paragraph above. It sounds explicitly like they want to charge "the quiet, daily jumpers."

If I burden the town next labor day when I go and jump, please let me know in what way I burdened them, and I'll pay 'em back.

I will gladly agree though (as I PM'ed to another guy), that if an organized event seeks to deplete a public resource, they may be liable to the public for repayment. A town board would be well within their rights to seek compensation for a quantifiable loss. It is entirely a separate debate, whether or not the town should reclaim such compensation from charity events.

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this just looks like an unintended consequence of high profile activity. why not vent on the people creating these events? or do you deny a connection?

The burden to the town seems trivial to me. And, BTW, I don't think it counts as a burden to simply use the town's air ambulance as long as you don't stiff them on the bill. After all, it's their job to be there for those who need them. I believe that in a post-Memorial Day newspaper article, someone involved in rescue even said that they spent far more time on lost snowmobilers.

The article said, "it's time to start a serious local discussion about managing it." That's a great idea, and that's partially taking place in this forum. But they also said, "it's not our responsibility to underwrite it[BASE], either." Yet as far as I can tell, they have not quantified their supposed underwriting, and I am very confused on what exactly they have underwritten. If they want to ask me for money to jump, I would like them to first be able to tell me how much I cost them otherwise.

Otherwise, they are just taxing me (and you) for the hell of it.

[JaapSuter 0]

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If I ever (God forbid) need an air ambulance ride, I'll gladly pay.

Are you referring to the insurance fees that would cover such an event, or to the actual cost? If you mean the latter, do you have any idea what an air ambulance ride actually costs?

What is important here, is whether or not I fully compensate the public for any debts I incur as a result of a medevac trip.

Whether I pay for that out-of-pocket (i.e. self-insurance) or through a purchased insurance plan is entirely irrelevant to the town.

Generally, most people don't have BASE specific insurance. That means they are relying on their regular health insurance to cover them for BASE accidents. This insurance is based on a mean behavior derived from a large group of people, only 0.00001% of which BASE jumps, and relying on the statistical behavior that at any given time there are more people that don't need insurance than there are people that do.

Insurance is paying a fee to handle the risk, not a definite outcome.

Now many of the non-BASE jumpers may very well be smoking, driving race-cars, climbing, eating fat food, or participating in other activities potentially harmful for one's health, it doesn't matter; BASE jumpers have higher risk of ending up using an above average amount from the accumulated insurance-pot.

As a test, just call several random insurance companies and ask them if they cover BASE jumping or not, and if so; if it costs more than average.

Now you may very well know that already. In fact, I hope so. I am only bringing this up because I've found that many people are just relying on their regular insurance without properly inquiring into what is covered, and possibly using cover-stories (fell with my skateboard) to get refunds for their health costs.

By doing so, those people are cheating the system and using more money than they strictly speaking deserve.

(And again, you can bring up the smokers, the obese, the lazy, and whatever. It doesn't counter the point, it just provides another example of it.)

No longer directed at you, but at all readers of this post; if you are just relying on your regular health benefits and haven't looked into BASE specifics, I encourage you to do so. It only takes one significant accident with a few operations and a long stay in the hospital to extract more money from the system than you would put in during your entire life. Denying that you're at higher risk of having such an accident as a BASE jumper is whoefully ignorant. Saying that insurance companies are greedy bastards that make enough money already doesn't do much good either; you're more than welcome to start your own insurance company that covers BASE. You'd be surprised how high the fees would have to be.

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And to answer your question, yes I do have a good idea of what an air ride costs. Let me further suggest that if the alternative was death, I would pay far more. Wouldn't most folks gladly give their last dime, and their last worldly posession, if the alternative to a medevac ride was to die in the canyon?

Yes, this is quite obvious to anybody. But that's hindsight reasoning. It's very easy to say: "I'm about to die unless I pay somebody 60 grand right now." Of course you'd find the money somewhere.

It's a lot harder to say: "I'm about to leap off this bridge, I'm a little fuzzy on the insurance details. I don't think I have 60 grand lying around, so I'll just hope that my jump goes okay and that I won't get hurt. If I do, I'll just hope that my insurance covers me, otherwise I'd surely go bankrupt...."

I've met many people that'll say: "...ah, fuck it. We'll worry about that when it comes." Next thing you know, they're hurt at the bottom of the canyon and more than willing to go bankrupt just to stay alive.

I guess my point was; many people don't put in any effort to understand how insurance companies actually work. If they did, they would pick up the phone and sort out their BASE specific situation. Surely they'd gladly pay for an air ambulance ride if they're about to die, but it's a moot point when one can spend a few minutes up front and sort it out properly.

[NickDG 23]

Who needs a helicopter anyway – just stop calling them.

Rick - or was it Randy – Harrison, crawled out of the Black Canyon, through the night, on his hands and knees with two badly broken ankles.

Don Swayze severed his foot so badly Doctors later took it off, but he crawled through a field, and down a city block trying to make it to his car. He finally had to call for help, in sight of his vehicle, because his was losing too much blood.

I rode 75 miles to the nearest clinic down a bumpy road in the back seat of a car with two broken legs and ate both headrests.

My point is you only need the helicopter when you really need it.

Why not this – Put an advert in the local paper:

Now Interviewing Volunteers
Snake River BASE Rescue Squad (SRBRS)
Must be Able to Jog from LZ to CZ w/Litter
Must Have Cell Phone & Car (Station Wagon a Plus)
Must Live or Work Close to Bridge
No Pay – Just Glory!

If we get the right half dozen or so people we could all chip in for their basic EMT training, even buy them uniforms and equipment. Then we could put a siren up on a pole above the Outback Steak House wired to a big red button down in the canyon. When the SRBRSer's hear the signal they'd leave their homes and jobs and come running. We could even get them red dashboard cherries so they could blow the red lights on the way . . .

It would also be like a periodic mining disaster, that would involve the whole town on a gut level and then once we get the good ladies of the area in the churches praying for us, we're in for keeps, boys. Then if we could just manage to not blow the damn siren for six months, or so, the occasional blip - like M-Day - wouldn't seem so out of proportion.

I would imagine that paying EMT jobs are scarce so maybe there are folks willing to do it just for the practical experience they could then take elsewhere. I met an American Indian once who told me, "If you don't like the local "anything here" start one of your own."

NickD BASE 194

[d_goldsmith 1]

"A town board would be well within their rights to seek compensation for a quantifiable loss. It is entirely a separate debate, whether or not the town should reclaim such compensation from charity events."

Keep in mind the town hasn't said anything yet, and might not say anything at all. And sending letters to the paper might spark another article.

I like Nick's idea, but I doubt we could keep something like that rolling without funding.

[NickDG 23]

Yup, no bucks, no backboards . . .

NickD BASE 194

[Colm 1]

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"A town board would be well within their rights to seek compensation for a quantifiable loss. It is entirely a separate debate, whether or not the town should reclaim such compensation from charity events."

Keep in mind the town hasn't said anything yet, and might not say anything at all. And sending letters to the paper might spark another article.

Nor would I suggest that the town does so... I merely offer the point here as a concession to those who correctly point out that some organized events using public resources, including BASE events, can conceivably burden a town in minor ways.

I've made my points... I'm writing a letter.. I'm going to bed!

[base935 0]

Is this an issue only because we want to make it one? If anything happens to TF, will it be because a couple guys from the newspaper said a couple things in the back page of a paper that few people read?

Don't stand on the rail, don't bring cranes to the bridge, and be nice to the cops and locals.

Cool. Done. Next... Can we all just jump now?

Gravity Research Institute

[460 0]

It was Rick, who broke his heal, not both ankles during the daytime.

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[wwarped 0]

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They say exactly this:

"The simplest and fairest solution, for starters at least, might be to charge BASE jumpers a modest use fee--say, $10 per person per day."

I read back and checked the context, and it is not very clear to me that they only imply this charge in the context of an organized event.

it also said:

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For starters, major BASE-jumping events that attract hundreds of people and require extra public services should not be treated the same as the activities of individual BASE jumpers. It's not unreasonable, in our view, to expect a large-scale spectacular to post a bond or pay a surcharge to cover the costs of police and emergency services overtime.

doesn't sound like they wish to charge low profile jumpers...

earlier they wrote:

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Last weekend, emergency medical crews and law enforcement officers--all working on the public's dime--worked to make another BASE jumping event safe. And a lane of the Perrine Bridge was blocked to accomodate a large crane being used in an attempt on a BASE-jumping record, while northbound traffic was backed up for blocks along Blue Lakes Boulevard North.

Maybe it's time that the citizens of Twin Falls and Jerome Counties stopped subsidizing this year-round three-ring circus.

so Dan's event for a deserving cause appears to trigger this editorial.

hopefully Holly is right, and the paper holds little sway.

as I do NOT live in TF, the following is speculation...
many times events like these are viewed as PR stunts. Hollywood is famous for it. they love to get a stars image out there. when a star is serious about the cause, they frequently refuse to talk about themselves, just the cause.

thus, everyone involved in these charity record attempts ought to only talk about the charity. tell them you can talk about BASE any other day of the year. you are there to talk about the charity. talk to American Legions, VFWs, churches, etc. before the event, have a bake sale, etc. i.e. get the locals involved and excited about the cause.

again, maybe Dan and others did this, I do not know. we must make it clear that when the locals see a "circus" they know IMMEDIATELY it is for a just cause.

suggestion?
on known, high volume weekends (Memorial Day, Labor Day) should we consider obtaining a screen of some sort? I've seen them used to obscure road work or accidents. if drivers can NOT see us climb the rail, wouldn't that be less disruptive? would it not show consideration and respect?

thoughts?

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[d_goldsmith 1]

I think that's a great idea. We would have to make sure it wasn't an ubstuction for people that wanted to walk over the bridge obviously, but that wouldn't be hard.

[TomAiello 25]

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I think that's a great idea. We would have to make sure it wasn't an ubstuction for people that wanted to walk over the bridge obviously, but that wouldn't be hard.

I'm not so sure. For the folks who drive over the bridge every day, a screen or something out there is going to be very unusual, and cause them to get distracted and slow down. To many of them, seeing jumpers isn't going to have nearly that much effect.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Mac 1]

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My point is you only need the helicopter when you really need it.

Just curious, how many people have actually called the heli with standard tip/fib breaks / ankle dislocates that were not justified a heli call out?

I travelled 70 miles in the back of my own car with a severe dislocated ankle and shattered tib and fib that required bone grafts after being carried out of the landing area once my jumping partners had taken out the fencing with tools they ran back a mile to get to remove then replace just so there was no trace or authority called.............

Thanks People once again!

If you are willing to BASE jump, then you are willing to suffer to ensure no one knows you BASE jump when you hurt yourself.................

.....I actually thought that was standard criteria?

[TomAiello 25]

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My point is you only need the helicopter when you really need it.

Just curious, how many people have actually called the heli with standard tip/fib breaks / ankle dislocates that were not justified a heli call out?

Unfortunately, there have been multipe incidents in which spectators called 911 to report a "parachuting accident" which they saw from the overlook. In many of these cases, an unnecessary helicopter was sent out, because the non-jumping spectator was totally unable to estimate the seriousness of the situation, and no communication was established with the jumpers in the landing area. Given that set of circumstances, it's understandable that the emergency response folks sent out their full setup (because they had no idea what was necessary, aside from the type of accident and the fact that the non-jumping spectator was telling them that it was "bad").

Jumpers have never called in a helicopter when they didn't need it. It's just that we're visible enough that other people call in the helicopter and we can't stop them.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Mac 1]

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and no communication was established with the jumpers in the landing area

Then its obvious if you want to keep the services and locals happy then..............

surely with the amount of jumpers who get pleasure from this site they will be willing to invest in something to ensure it does not piss off the local people or drain the resources from the emergency services.......

If I jumped there many times a year I would be more than happy to pay a fee to ensure the authorities are happy...........

Just because you like freedom, dont ever assume you deserve the freedom without any cost!

[Colm 1]

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If I jumped there many times a year I would be more than happy to pay a fee to ensure the authorities are happy...........

That attitude is quite foreign to me. Such fees should be payed to offset legitimate costs, not to "keep someone happy," to paraphrase you. I already happily pay taxes on goods and services I purchase. The businesses I patronize are further taxed on the profit they make off of me. Why single me out for more, just because I brought a parachute with me? If all tourists are to be taxed, without regard to their pasttime, fine. But don't single out BASE when we are a drop in the bucket.

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Just because you like freedom, dont ever assume you deserve the freedom without any cost!

In this case, the cost is payed for by vigilance and action, not by graft, which is what your suggestion amounts to.

Pay em to keep em happy... sounds more like Tammany Hall.

[TomAiello 25]

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If I jumped there many times a year I would be more than happy to pay a fee to ensure the authorities are happy.....

Yes, but...

Let's say the guy who lives next door to me likes to ride his snowmobile. He doesn't pay any more taxes than I do. When he gets in a wreck out in the backcountry, local SAR comes out and gets him, and brings him back to where the help is.

I like to parachute off the bridge. When I get in trouble, they do the same for me.

Why should I be paying extra taxes that he isn't?

I realize that this isn't the case for most of us (jumpers), but for me and other locals, it seems silly that we ought to be paying more taxes than our neighbors who fish, climb, snowmobile, hunt, or whatever else, on the same public lands that we use.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[AggieDave 6]

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but for me and other locals, it seems silly that we ought to be paying more taxes than our neighbors who fish, climb, snowmobile, hunt, or whatever else, on the same public lands that we use.

You realize that there are licenses required for hunting that cost about $200 and up. Fishing licenses are equally expensive, just not quite as bad. There are also park access fees with an annual fee or a per trip fee for the climbers and others. All for access on public lands. Then to top that off there are very detailed state laws that govern each one of those activites on public land.

Its not just a free ride for all of those activities on public lands. There are people that don't have licenses and hunt or fish or also break the law when they just go out and climb something or snowmobile somewhere, so they may not be the best example for a legal open access site that is free.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[TomAiello 25]

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There are people that don't have licenses and hunt or fish or also break the law when they just go out and climb something or snowmobile somewhere, so they may not be the best example for a legal open access site that is free.

Hmmm. Yes, I see your point, but I'd rather see BASE in the "no permit" set of activities (like snowmobiling or climbing) than the "permit required" set (like hunting or fishing).

In general, the "permit required" activities (like hunting and fishing) require permits because they involve the consumption of a limited resource (the game being hunted), where the "no permit" activities do not (the rock, for example, is not used up by a climber progressing over it, nor is the air used up by a jumper falling through it).

I do realize that this varies from place to place (some places don't require fishing licenses, for example, while some places like a Texas state park require climbing permits).

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[wwarped 0]

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I'm not so sure. For the folks who drive over the bridge every day, a screen or something out there is going to be very unusual, and cause them to get distracted and slow down. To many of them, seeing jumpers isn't going to have nearly that much effect.

understood.

but as you pointed out, we will never know somethings unless we try (and use that squishy stuff between out ears.) the key appears to be limiting our impact on traffic. local jumpers can best identify WHAT impacts traffic...

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[AggieDave 6]

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I do realize that this varies from place to place (some places don't require fishing licenses, for example, while some places like a Texas state park require climbing permits).

Right, except that the permit thing varies from park to park (as I understand it).

Just wanted to get your mind moving into that direction to see the government's line of thinking. You know I don't have to pay anything to ride my Mt. Bike at any of the state parks, except I still have to pay an entrance fee. Food for thought.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[dploi 0]

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the key appears to be limiting our impact on traffic. local jumpers can best identify WHAT impacts traffic...

Fiiiiiine... no more spike strips.

[mfnren 0]

just to get your prices straight, hunting licenses are around $20, depending on the what your hunting.at least thats my experience for being a resident in the western states.

[AggieDave 6]

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just to get your prices straight, hunting licenses are around $20, depending on the what your hunting.at least thats my experience for being a resident in the western states.

I got the price from the state in question's website for non-residents. Since there are a large number of jumpers that aren't locals at Twin Falls. That way I thought I was being fair in my comparison.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."