2s delay - hand held or stowed?

[TomDancs 0]

I'm with Nick on this one. I always assess the jump, and where possible I go hand held. That said I live in Washington, and the majority of our jumps are 250-400ft, with deployment timing relatively important on many (i.e., pass that ledge before you pitch or make damn sure you are open 100ft above that ramp/ledge to the right, or need to be open high in order to clear those trees, etc...).

I also do not do any aerials, and I like the security of knowing that when I chuck the security rag, it's clear of me. I also have found that I personally have better symmetry in my shoulders during deployment when I go hand held, and therefore possibly better heading performance all else being equal.

Where wind might be an issue in terms of possibly blowing the bridal under my elbow etc... I will opt to go stowed or I will opt to not jump.

Now all that said there have been a few situations where it was not possible to go hand held because of the climb out to exit point where I sure wish I would have been hand held, and I do get heckled every now and then for being the only one with my PC in hand, but oh well.

My ideas on this issue evolve and change as time goes on, but that is my current thinking.

Tom Dancs

[evilivan 0]

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All your friends will think you are cool.

Goddamit; the above is the crux of the ...potential... problem (and coming from you, Tom? )

I should have said this in my first post: I think the main reason people choose stowed on short delays is exactly because of what Tom said above; there are, of course, reasons for stowed (on short delays):

* Primarily: object and exit; you may need as many hands as you can muster
* Secondarily: you feel more comfortable that way

Otherwise? No logical reason. People, we are part of a few thousand out four billion who are prepared to do this. Why try to be the cutting edge when we are the cutting edge? It becomes the bleeding edge all too soon. As we have seen.

Small print: I know nothing.

Ivan

"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent

[KMonster 0]

Hey Tom! I've seen your throw and goes! Haha, I'm just kidding. If somebody actually makes fun of you for doing a more conservative jump then that person's opinion is not worth worrying about.

I always enjoy jumping with you, Tom


Katiemonster.

[RayLosli 11]

Post: All,

1 - When there is an option, do you typically go stowed or hand held on a 2 second delay?

2 - If the PC and bridle are folded correctly ie in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations, is there really a serious risk of the PC falling onto your back when going stowed on a 2 second delay?

3 - If there really is a serious risk of the PC falling onto your back when going stowed on a 2 second delay why do it? Why not go hand held?

I have in the interim opted to go hand held for such jumps

Thanking you in advance

John


-
my answers to the questions asked :

1- There is always an option but I choose to go Hand-Held or Stowed depending on the Jump. for example, The technical sides of it. For simple reasons of my given choices for my (Secondary Outs) if Heading was bad or maybe a particular heading direction is not an option. Or it could be just because it is a New Object and I am just feeling it out.
asked..." why do it? Why not go hand held? " I choose to play the game . That seems most favorable for that object.

2- No

3- There is Not a serious risk of the PC falling onto your back when going stowed on a 2 second delay but the options of going Hand-Held or Stowed or even Static or PCA are always there to consider and choose.
I can honestly say that I have not NEVER seen this happen before (the PC falling onto your back when going stowed on a 2 second delay) though I have witnessed many PC Hesitations at Bridal-Stretch over the years.
(the PC falling onto your back when going stowed on a 2 second delay) This is TRULY a RARE thing & not the Normalcy of PC malfunctions. The BASE PC IS the one thing that seems to be the most consistent in performance next to the Canopy always Inflating after extraction. The PC always pulls the Canopy off your back 99.998 % of the time. So Why not this time ?
-
John, you have so many responses and discussion to this Thread. To me this shows that the incident last weekend with the (unresolved cause of death) Why-? the Pilot-Chute seemed to Fail in it's duty to pull the Canopy from the container. In the 5+ seconds allotted for it to complete it's mission on the jump. Has really put the Fear-of God in so many to give pause to Think. Not so much I think as to the death of a jumper being the cause of Fear. I think it's a little more than just Gear-Fear also Because if death was the big fear than there would not be this big influx of BASE jumpers. I think the Big-Fear is NOT being able to place blame to the cause why a perfectly good Pilot-Chute Failed in the time allotted for it to work. So many suspect reasons but nothing concrete to put the finger on. The biggest injurer & killer for BASE still remains the ( 180 deg.off-heading & object strike ) but the Rare ( Complete PC Failure ) is still lurking to get you and it's scary. What is most scary is Why-? or What caused the PC (the most consistent performer on your Rig) to go and be held on a BASE jumpers back @ a 2-second pitch ? Would going Hand-Held with PC on every BASE jump done actually be the safest road to travel for every 2-second delay ?
.

[John_Scher 0]

All,

Thank you for your focussed and considered comments, they are much appreciated.

John

[sethgray 0]

Just wanted to bring up a concern of mine that I didn't see discussed yet:

When I go handheld--which I admittadely do very rarely--I hold the pilotchute differently depending on the delay I plan on taking:

0-1.5 second delay: I choke off the bridle and mesh, leaving the ZeroP/F111 topskin on the top of my hand (NOT CHOKED).

1-2 second delay: I choke off the entire pilotchute exactly like it would be in the BOC (except the bridle routed ontop of my thumb ofcourse).

My reasoning for the difference in what material is choked is this: any extra fabric in the air is more drag, drag on one extremity is nonsymmetrical, this unsymmetrical drag will make me need to change my center of gravity to keep nice and stable.... and I don't want to have to worry about all of this if I don't have to. I feel that this extra drag is minimal, and probably accounted for unconciously by many of us, but its still there.

just my 2 cents. Also, while we're on the topic of handheld procedure could somebody chime in with all the reasons to route your bridle ontop of your thumb and NEVER out the bottom of your hand... there are a few jumpers up here that could use hearing these reasons again.

BASE #958

[TomAiello 25]

I agree with your reasoning, but fold the PC differently than what you are describing.

In my opinion, holding a mushroom in your hand yields very similar hesitation rates to holding the mushroom in your BOC. If your going to hold the PC in your hand, there are other ways to fold it that can yield noticeably lower rates of hesitation.

You can also, for very short delays (like 0-0 seconds), hold the PC at the very bottom (the bridle attachment), which, when done properly, can pretty much eliminate any chance of a hesitation.

There has been a fatality apparently resulting from holding the PC with too much flapping out the top, for too long a delay (see #19).

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Faber 0]

well you aint cool if you make a short delay stowed off a high object,but then again neither you are if you do it HH of that same object,how i know?

I did a 1-1,5 sec delay hh off a 950ft cliff last summer,but hey i got the jump even as the hike were a pain in the arse and i never EVER had such a looooong canopy ride from a BASE before(do i need to add that i ofcourse did jump slider off)

Ivan,you either started to hate me(like for real) or never call back,get your lazy arse to the phone

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[980 0]

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Where wind might be an issue in terms of possibly blowing the bridal under my elbow etc... I will opt to go stowed or I will opt to not jump.

if you are referring to a strong tailwind, or cross-tailwind from the right (left if you are a left hand BOC freak), then going handheld with the bridle properly routed and the correct amount of slack is the best way to assure that you do not get the pc and then bridle under your arm

going stowed in those conditions will greatly increase the probability of getting the pc and then the bridle under your arm

If I have interpreted your statement incorrectly, please advise, if not, I would be interested in your reasoning behind this.

Thanks dude
Sam

[980 0]

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1 - When there is an option, do you typically go stowed or hand held on a 2 second delay?

Stowed. If I can do a 2 second delay then I have trouble imagining a scenario that would make me want to go handheld.

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2 - If the PC and bridle are folded correctly ie in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations, is there really a serious risk of the PC falling onto your back when going stowed on a 2 second delay?

It depends on your PC throw more than anything else. With a good throw and properly sized PC I would say there is no risk of that on a 2 second delay.

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3 - If there really is a serious risk of the PC falling onto your back when going stowed on a 2 second delay why do it? Why not go hand held?

That risk only exists with a bad PC throw or some rigging error.

I go stowed because I am confident I can get my PC out where it needs to be in time (and that I understand where that is).
I prefer stowed over handheld because it allows me an easier climb-out, a more natural feeling running exit, a more symmetrical launch, the option of doing an aerial and it is quicker to exit.
I will sometimes go handheld due to object height, but that only really applies to objects where I would not be willing and/or able to do a 2 second delay.
I will also go handheld in high tailwinds if I cannot do at least a 2 second delay.


I see it this way:

- when I jump, I am betting my life that my canopy will open and will open in time
- when I freefall, I am also betting my life that I will pitch my pilot chute in time and properly to allow my canopy to open in time
- when I go stowed I am also betting my life that I will grab my PC in time to pitch it in time to allow the canopy to open in time

doing a good pilot chute pitch stowed is more technically complicated and requires more co-ordination and precision than going handheld, so this ups the ante even more


it’s all about what you are willing to bet your life on

Pitching a stowed pilot chute properly is a skill that every basejumper should learn. The better and more consistent you are at it, the lower you can do it.

Just remember what you are betting on.

Cya
Sam

[wwarped 0]

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if you are referring to a strong tailwind, or cross-tailwind from the right (left if you are a left hand BOC freak), then going handheld with the bridle properly routed and the correct amount of slack is the best way to assure that you do not get the pc and then bridle under your arm

do you (or anyone else) consider going handheld using your left hand? it could offer a cleaner launch, depending on the wind...

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[HydroGuy 0]

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do you (or anyone else) consider going handheld using your left hand? it could offer a cleaner launch, depending on the wind...

I'm left handed, but I would still find dealing with the PC in my left hand to be awkward as hell.

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[cornishe 0]

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Pitching a stowed pilot chute properly is a skill that every basejumper should learn.

or you can learn it during AFF on your first skydives!!!

that said i go handheld unless i *have* to go stowed b/c of tracking or sketchy exit. im bad enough under canopy, i dont care to roll an extra set of dice each turn if i dont have to.

-am

Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

[980 0]

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or you can learn it during AFF on your first skydives!!!

I disagree. The pilot chute throw that is taught to just about every skydiver is not what a basejumper should be using.

Learning how to pitch properly should be part of every FJC (and it is of all the major ones that I know of).

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i go handheld unless i *have* to go stowed b/c of tracking or sketchy exit.

So, to clarify, since the IBPB is not a sketchy exit point and you are unlikely to need to track: you go handheld as default from your hometown object?

[cornishe 0]

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So, to clarify, since the IBPB is not a sketchy exit point and you are unlikely to need to track: you go handheld as default from your hometown object?

I do. Ody will verify this for you. After a week here he mentioned to me that he had never seen me go stowed! I do in fact go stowed here sometimes, but thats just to stay current since i have a lil more margin for errors here. In general 486ft for me is a HH object. My opinion/choice for the game I'm playing.

-am

Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

[TomDancs 0]

Sam,

I meant if the wind is blowing the bridal around before I jump at exit point, and thus putting it under my arm to start.

Thanx for pointing out the in-clarity in my statement. My boss does that often too...

Tom Dancs

[audacium 0]

Hi John,


Usually I stick to the following rule:

slider-down: hand-held
slider-up: stowed

But also I mostly do slider-up jumps, and for me there is no benefit in going stowed on short delays. I yet have to do a slider-down jump where I do not have enough space at exit point to prepare the pilot-chute for hand-held.

Otherwise, the thread contains everything I could yet say.

--
Eduard