2s delay - hand held or stowed?

[John_Scher 0]

All,

With respectful reference to the recent incident involving Shannon, recent comments from Jeb and numerous examples to be found elsewhere on this forum I sincerely request your advice to the following questions:

1 - When there is an option, do you typically go stowed or hand held on a 2 second delay?

2 - If the PC and bridle are folded correctly ie in accordance with the manufaturers recomendations, is there really a serious risk of the PC falling onto your back when going stowed on a 2 second delay?

3 - If there really is a serious risk of the PC falling onto your back when going stowed on a 2 second delay why do it? Why not go hand held?

I have in the interim opted to go hand held for such jumps

Thanking you in advance

John

[Mikki_ZH 0]

If you do a search for "stowed" you will find a lot of information.
But the last big discussion was in this thread
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2017005;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
after a cliffstrike of someone going stowed with a 48" pc on a 2s jump.

Michi (#1068)
hsbc/gba/sba
www.swissbaseassociation.ch
www.michibase.ch

[John_Scher 0]

Mikki_ZH,

Thank you for your reply.

I have searched, downloaded and studied a lot of the threads and have seen numerous videos of 2 second stowed delays. I have done a few myself.

What do you personally do - hand held or stowed?

Regards

John

[evilivan 0]

I work on the theory that unless the exit calls for it (need both hands on the object), there is no advantage in going stowed. Caveats: 1) I am a newbie 2) I've never gone stowed.

"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent

[Mikki_ZH 0]

I go handheld (for delays up to 2s) exept for S's, there I also go stowed from 0 to 2s.

Michi (#1068)
hsbc/gba/sba
www.swissbaseassociation.ch
www.michibase.ch

[base689 0]

> What do you personally do - hand held or stowed?
Going stowed for short delays is COMPULSORY only in case the exit point is hard to reach (=you need both hands to climb/to move around) and/or a loose bridle can easily get caught somewhere in the structure (I am thinking about metallic lattice structures and other types of objects that have got metallic pieces protruding everywhere near exit point).
Remember that when going handheld you must have your S-folded PC in your hand BEFORE getting to exit point. "BEFORE" means several meters/feet within exit point, you must "do it" into your hand where you are still safe and there is NO danger of falling off accidentally.
So, indeed, there are cases of low jumps where/when going stowed is not an option (=it would be really difficult/dangerous to move around with one and half hand and all that loose bridle).
Apart from those few cases of low jumps where going stowed is mandatory, going handheld has got a lot of advantages.
Handheld: it is easy to launch/release the PC in clean air and it is indeed very difficult to launch a handheld PC very bad, so bad that it gets hesitations.
Stowed: you must pack your big PC (48"/46") very carefully (and be careful where you stow the (excess) bridle, I would warmly suggest the "supermushroom techique" by Johnny Utah when packing a big PC for low BASE jumps), you must throw your stowed PC in clean air far away from your body, it is not that difficult but it can be not too difficult to have a crappy throw, in which case that (weak/poor) throw can make your day rapidly deteriorating.
Just my 0.02€

Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com

[John_Scher 0]

Base 689,

Thank you for your reply.

When there is an option on a 2second delay what do you personally do - hand held or stowed?

Regards

John

[Treejumps 0]

Hello,

I have to admit that since I started going stowed about 7 years ago, I've only done a few handhelds. I've been meaning to get current on handheld and plan to that in the near future. That being said, if you are going hh, even on difficult access objects it is very easy to do climb out, or half way out of an A, and then pull you pc out of the pouch. The trick is to stow the pc in a way that you can grab the pc and bridle together and pull them out as a pre prepped unit, allowing the bridle to pay out to arms length. Everyone has their own hh style, but the way I stow a pc for hh makes it possible to pull it out and go without having to redress the whole thing and to do it in a matter of a few seconds.

YMMV

[John_Scher 0]

Treejumps,

Thanks for your reply.

If I read you correctly you are opting to go stowed on 2 second delays (climb out permitting) when you could go hand held.

Do you think that you are adding an avoidable risk by doing this or do you think that the chance of the PC falling onto your back is negligible?

Please excuse my somewhat pointed questions as I am interested to know what people actually do rather than what they think or know is preferable

Regards

John

[unclecharlie95 3]

2sec Friendly object and current - stowed.

2sec Unfriendly object - HH.

BASEstore.it

[John_Scher 0]

Unclecharlie95,

Thanks for your reply.

As I'm not sure if you have answered me or not kindly advise if you personally go stowed or hand held on 2 second delays irrespective of how friendly the object is.

Regards

John

[jupija 0]

2 sec. delay i would choose 42" PC stowed, i wouldnt fold and stowe 46 or 48" PC

[Treejumps 0]

These days I go stowed on everything, with the caveat that I don't really jump anything under 400'. I don't think I am adding avoidable risk.

There are a few objects around 300' that I have plans for, and I will go hh on them, not to avoid burbles, but just to open higher. That is the way of team old and brittle.

[brokebackBASE 0]

I was on a tower last night at 320ft stowed. While sinching down legs and chest I got thinking about this subject and what has been discussed over the last few weeks since being in twin. I thought do I have more to gain by going stowed or hand held. Pretty easy exit point either way. Adding it all up I went HH. Which is the first time I ever have gone HH from this tower at this heigth. Not sure any of this helps but everything added up to HH. Then again maybe I am just a candy ass and skeert!!!!

[sabre210 0]

Hi John

For 2 second delays off pretty much everything i go hand held. I stow for above 2 or occasionally i will go stowed below 2 if the object or conditions favour it.

My reasons are simple.

I feel more comfortable doing this.

ian

[hookitt 0]

1 - Either one

[gus 1]

Hi John,

I have a few objects in that delay range where going hand held is not an option and I haven't had any problems going stowed but normally I will choose to go hand held if possible. To me, it feels like a simpler system. Like there's one less link in the chain.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[base689 0]

> ...with the caveat that I don't really jump anything under 400'. I don't think I am adding avoidable risk.
In fact. As I supposed. There is something very personal in BASE jumps. One the very personal things is the "lowest" freefall any BASE jumper is going to do (and stowed/handheld is a detail of that).
Lowest jump I and my mates have ever done is freefall from 65 m - 213 ft (below that, we go SL). Of course, handheld and S-folds only on mesh (ZP loose open).
Few weeks ago I did my second (ever) stowed jump off a 95 m - 312 ft bridge.
Few mates of mine usually go stowed not below that 95 m - 312 ft mark. But when it's windy, they go handheld. BTW, my mates stow ANY size of PC (48", 46" and smaller): with a good supermushroom technique you can stow ANY size of PC.
Last week I was going to go stowed off that 95 m - 312 ft bridge but because of high winds I simply removed my supermushroom packed PC off my BOC and I jumped it keeping that "stuff" handheld. When it's windy and depending also on which direction the wind is coming from, the possibility that PC goes in front of you is NOT zero, so, why take additional risk? If properly done (and it's not that difficult), handheld PC deployments have never failed.
IMHO, going stowed in a "low" jump could look cool and elegant, but when it's "low" and/or windy, a good throw starting from handheld cannot go (reasonably) go wrong. Going stowed, "could" go wrong. So, it's up to you.
Additionally, it could be done something I call "half stowed".
My "half stowed" is done as follows.
You go on exit point stowed with your best supermushroom PC packing: when you are actualy to jump, you simply jump with your right hand already on the "handle" (center of ZP cloth filled with mesh/s-folded bridle) and after the planned delay, you "simply" throw your PC off your side; going "half stowed" just be careful you can master you standard best exit with the strange body attitude keeping a hand "fixed" AT your BOC; beyond that (=stable exit in an unusual body "attitude"), there is NO possibility of missing your PC (still there exists a slight possibility for a weak throw, but that's another story).

Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com

[TomAiello 25]

It depends on many other factors.

Quote

1 - When there is an option, do you typically go stowed or hand held on a 2 second delay?

I usually go stowed.

Quote

2 - If the PC and bridle are folded correctly ie in accordance with the manufaturers recomendations, is there really a serious risk of the PC falling onto your back when going stowed on a 2 second delay?

I don't think so. What wind conditions are you considering, though?

Quote

3 - If there really is a serious risk of the PC falling onto your back when going stowed on a 2 second delay why do it? Why not go hand held?

There are good reasons for each. For example, you might want to go stowed because you have to wiggle onto the exit point through the structure, and it's hard to do that while hand held.


Some thoughts on each option:


Stowed:

Con:

1) The chance for a hesitation is greater. This is much more noticeable with a larger PC and a shorter delay. At 2 seconds with a 42, I think there is a difference in hesitation rate, but a relatively small difference.

2) You must pull higher to achieve the same opening altitude, which typically exposes you to greater wind effects during the opening sequence.

3) A strong tailwind can blow the PC under your arm, potentially entangling your bridle with your hand/wrist/arm.

4) Strong (jumper's) right-to-left crosswinds can push the PC back into the jumper when it is thrown.

Pro:

1) It's far easier to get onto tricky exit points, because both hands are totally free.

2) If you are doing any rotations in freefall, you keep the bridle contained and out of the way.

3) It is possible to use your hands slightly more effectively in launch to create greater object separation.

4) Many jumpers are far more current stowed, so they are less likely to throw their body position off with the pitch.

5) All your friends will think you are cool.

Hand Held:

Con:

1) It's harder to maneuver onto the exit.

2) It takes some time to fold the PC and route the bridle. It might be hard to come by that time in some high pressure exit situations, where you must make a very short window.

3) It's possible for freefall wind to blow the bridle around and do weird things with it (like flipping it under your elbow).

Pro:

1) Lower hesitation rate (with the 42 at 2 seconds, not a huge deal--but as the delays get shorter and the PC's larger, it matters more).

2) You can pull lower regularly, which may keep you out of higher winds at greater altitude, and might also make your friends think you are cool.

3) You can more precisely time your opening, which could be important if you must clear an obstacle in freefall, but then need to open as quickly as possible once it has been avoided.

4) It's much more difficult to miss the PC, or fumble the pitch.

5) All your friends will think you are old school.

There are many more points both pro and con, but those are some that I thought up off the top of my head this morning. There is a time and place for each, I think, but I also think that most people (including myself) default to "stowed" and that's not necessarily the smartest thing to do.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[NickDG 23]

The problem with telling someone to search is the attitudes and favored techniques change very fast in BASE jumping. Many jumpers, especially the younger ones, often rethink things after a fatality.

In the beginning the idea was you went stowed only if there was tracking involved. And that evolved out of the days when people actually tracked with pilot chutes in their hands. In the eighties we sometimes used "line" bridles instead of the tape kind as they weren't as draggy and wouldn't pull your pins while you tracked. (But they still did sometimes) And they also had a very high entanglement potential.

That, tracking with a pilot chute in hand, was the extreme side of hand held just like going stowed from a few hundred feet is the other extreme of that practice. Stay somewhere in the middle. Maybe we should flip the equation around and start thinking, “can I jump this hand held,” rather than, “can I jump this stowed?”

But one thing surely has to change. If you are the type that calls someone a weenie for going hand held – then stop that . . .

NickD BASE 194

[ZegeunerLeben 0]

>>I go hand-held simply because I prefer to hold my life in my hands, rather than in a spandex pouch.

[Sean621 0]

yo John...ive seen the cliff...and good conditions or not...good vibe or not i would go handheld there with your experience and the medical facilities and evacuation facilities in your country...if you start humming it past two on that wall...my oppinion would be stow...use an av.....but watch the winds...

when you gonna get me some costs for coming to see the cheeky one we talked about...

im going to Ibiza for a week in september as well now so i need to do some budgets

hope you are well mate

http://www.extreme-on-demand.com

[psycho 0]

Myself i go stowed on pretty much everything above 240. Keep in mind you might want to get current on going stowed on a higher object practice throwing the pilot chute hard to full bridle extension and in an out and up oriantation. I personally like going stowed i find going hand held just leaves the bridle out there to snag stuff and it wigs me out

[Bigwallmaster 0]

Many jumpers, especially the younger ones, often rethink things after a fatality.
----------------------------------------------------------

I'm one of these people.

----------------------------------------------------------
But one thing surely has to change. If you are the type that calls someone a weenie for going hand held – then stop that . . .

----------------------------------------------------------

Magot, pay attention here!!

----------------------------------------------------------

I have been thinking about this alot lately (since Shannon's death) and I'm definately having my reservations about going stowed from objects like the one in Potato land. I know for you old timers and more experienced jumpers 486' seems huge and therefore my comments may seem ridiculous. I did not go stowed the last time I was there; I will later this summer when I get up there. But I can tell you it will be very nerve racking for me the first time I do. I would be damn pissed if someone ever gave me shit for deciding not to go stowed off that object.

Good post Nick.

Cheers,

J.P.

[wwarped 0]

Quote

my comments may seem ridiculous. I did not go stowed the last time I was there; I will later this summer when I get up there. But I can tell you it will be very nerve racking for me the first time I do. I would be damn pissed if someone ever gave me shit for deciding not to go stowed off that object.

three things to remember:
1) only do something if YOU are comfortable with it
2) err on the conservative side
3) NEVER jump with anyone who doesn't accept your opinions on the first two...

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse