shannon pc

[Faber 0]

i didnt knew Shannon,neither did i knew what kind of delay she planned to do on that jump.however i were told that she had less than 100 BASE jumps,

she might planned a longer delay,but felt the fear from starting going head low got scared or somthing else and therefore pitched..

She might planned doing a 1-2 sec delay...

As you said sometimes fear just make you pull before planned.. some time you take that extra split second before you think its too late..

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if you were going to do a 1 to 2 second delay you would go hand held because even though the likelihood was very small, there was a chance that the pilot chute could get caught in your burble and create a longer then anticipated opening sequence. If you were going to do 3 seconds or more then stowed was ok because it meant you would have the air speed to insure your pilot chute wouldn't get trapped in the burble created by your body falling through the air.

A good rule i practice myself,which i also were told as i started.

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Bigwallmaster 0]

Jeb,

My only comment/question would be. . . . . . at such a low airspeed is there really all that much of a burble present? At one or tow seconds you've barely begun to pick up speed. I guess in my young and inexperienced "BASE" mind, it just seems logical that burble issues shouldn't be a problem on such short delays.

I would like to hear someones feedback on this.



Cheers,

J.P.

[Faber 0]

I do agree whith you,however it dosnt change my mind about short delays should be done hh,unless your doing an arial or has a exitpoint or climb to an exitpoint that makes it imposible to prepare a hh safely.

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Thijs 0]

This is how I think it works (no first hand experience, just thinking about airflow).

If you go handheld, your pilot chute is completely open when you throw it in the airstream. Because it is already open when you throw it away, it can catch a lot of air, and start to function right away.

When you throw a stowed pilot chute in the air, it is kind of packed, and airstream is needed to open the pilotchute to let it function.
What seems to me that can happen on a hesitation is that the pilot chute moves toward the back of the jumper (when the bridle is fully extended), and is not enough opened yet. Because you are falling slow, and your body is already creating a burble, the airstream the pilot chute catches when it is behind you is quiet small, and maybe not enough to open it fully and let it work. I think this is why longer bridles when introduced to base, to make sure the pilot chute is more out of the jumpers burble (look at the fatality at BD in 87).
Ofcourse the problem becomes a lot bigger when the bridle itself is not fully extended yet (see Jaap's problem).

Hesitations can be fixed by letting more airstream reach the pilot chute (for example by rotating your body).

I could be completely wrong, so please don't shoot me if I am...

Thijs

[TomAiello 25]

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I think this is why longer bridles when introduced to base, to make sure the pilot chute is more out of the jumpers burble...

This is not entirely accurate. One of the main reasons to use longer bridles was to increase snatch force for opening velcro rigs.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[jeb 0]

The people I learned base from told me the reason for longer bridles was both, to increase snatch force and to get the pilot chute farther from the burble.

Jeb

[GravityGirl 0]

I was told by eye witness/es that Shannon too about 2.5 sec.

Did anyone here see anything different?

Also, I got conflicting reports about what happend before/during/after the toss.

Trouble finding it?
Caught in burble?
Bridle wrap?

The only thing consistant was that she turned slightly, the pilot chute caught air, started to extract canopy, then impact.

I know she had neck surgery and was out for some time.

i know whe had a couple of openings the day before that aggrevaeted her injury.

I know she packed slider up as a result and decided to take a longer delay.

So what happened after her 2.5 second delay?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Pendragon 1]

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When you throw a stowed pilot chute in the air, it is kind of packed, and airstream is needed to open the pilotchute to let it function.

When taking 2+s handheld, I thought that general practice was to hold the packed PC quite tightly (and not open as for a short, say 1s, delay) to avoid it causing noticeable drag on one side and therefore a turn. Isn't this in essence the same (in terms of how the PC is packed) as going stowed?

However, this got me thinking about how the PC enters the airflow in the 2 configurations: on hand-held, the PC is in your hand in front of you, and must therefore enter the air stream in a different manner (from the front and away from any burble?) to reaching behind the container and throwing it from there?

My question is therefore: is there any particular issue regarding the going stowed / lazy throw / low airspeed combination that anyone has ever heard of?

I'm not speculating on this particular event, just curious since I'm experimenting with short delay stowed jumps.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[nicknitro71 0]

Are there any videos or pictures?

So far I've heard: hand-held, stowed, PC in burble, bridle wrapped, very short delay (about 1 sec), 2.5 sec delay, and both slider up and down

I for one think we should get to the bottom of this so everyone can learn something from this tragic accident.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[brits17 0]

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So far I've heard: hand-held, stowed, PC in burble, bridle wrapped, very short delay (about 1 sec), 2.5 sec delay, and both slider up and down

A couple facts...
Stowed
Slider up
At least 2 sec delay

There is video and I have not seen it.

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[460 0]

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I think this is why longer bridles when introduced to base, to make sure the pilot chute is more out of the jumpers burble...

This is not entirely accurate. One of the main reasons to use longer bridles was to increase snatch force for opening velcro rigs.

The original rigs were skydiving pin rigs. Short bridles led to weak snatches and pilot chutes riding in the burble. Hence, longer bridles were the obvious conclusion... Look at the Bridge day 1983 video... very interesting. And the Steve Gersting incident in 1987 at Bridge Day. Be careful people.

Yes, I completely agree with Jeb's conclusions. The only reason to go stowed is if there is a compelling reason, like aerials, long delays, or a very difficult exit point. A caveat regarding long delays - I have done long delay where I prefer to go hand held. Specifically for low pulls. This must be done carefully with a proper pilot chute folding to minimize the pc catching air while in your hand. If done poorly, the pilot chute can drag while it's in your hand, resulting in the jumper being barrel rolled, which has happened and nearly led to fatalities. The way I fold it handheld causes the pilot chute to literally spring open, which requires particular types of top skin tapes.

While stowed, the pilot chute material has memory. That's why jumpers generally repack their pilot chute not too long before their jump for consistent pilot chute inflation.

I personally am terrified of exposing the bridle to the spandex pouch. I stow my bridle within the pilot chute.

I have included a write up by Adam CR about going stowed. Note that it was written 9 years ago. You guys need to rely upon the hard earned acculumated knowledge of the established BASE community.

Remember this: No task is so simple that it cannot be done wrong!

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[Faber 0]

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I have done long delay where I prefer to go hand held. Specifically for low pulls. This must be done carefully with a proper pilot chute folding to minimize the pc catching air while in your hand. If done poorly, the pilot chute can drag while it's in your hand, resulting in the jumper being barrel rolled, which has happened and nearly led to fatalities.

On how long delays
Which kind of pc
pin or velcro
how long bridel

I have taken a 42 AV ZP pc on 3-3,5 secs HH serval times whith pin rig and spectra loops.PC were most of the times folded like a musroom but only holding on to the mesh.

My biggest consern on thouse jumps were the thourght of a horsshoe mal.
The hardest pull ive got on a pc were on a 3 sec delay off 400ft were the pc manneged to shake my hand just before i let go.

I do belive that you should choose a fairly big pc and take like a slider up delay(in my world=+4-5secs)going HH,to get dragged into a barelroll.

I has to say that i wont recomend doing so long delays HH,i had my reassons when i did,but the smart thing should be atleast stowed at jumps in the 3+sec delay rangeEDIT: ofcourse whith a proberly packed PC

That said you never see me stowed sub 300ft

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[460 0]

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On how long delays
Which kind of pc
pin or velcro
how long bridel

I have taken a 42 AV ZP pc on 3-3,5 secs HH serval times whith pin rig and spectra loops.PC were most of the times folded like a musroom but only holding on to the mesh.

In some cases, it has been people using 42 ZP PC's doing 4 second delays with the pilot chute highly exposed. In other cases, it's been with 52 inch F111 parainnovator pc's. It was with either velcro closed rigs or single pin skydiving rigs. The point being is that a highly exposed pilot chute can torque the jumper and lead to uneven shoulders, which can be a significant hazard on some objects.

I have done terminal with a 42 inch ZP PC and 38 inch ZP PC in my hand many years ago. This was when I had a BASE rig from 1984 (Steve Morrell's rig, BASE 174) that was a converted Wonderhog reserve container. It had no spandex pouch so going stowed was not an option.

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[808 0]

After much thought I decided to share the following information. I did receive some digital pictures from a co-worker of mine who happened to be on the bridge when Shannon made her last jump.I can tell you with certainty a few points about her jump. This is not video, so even though I may have my own beliefs on what happened, I'm going to only share what is fact and evident by the pictures. There's 4 main photos taken of her jump. The first photo is her almost leaving the plank. Her gear appears to be configured correctly and a non-issue. The second photo is her in freefall after she has appeared to have just pitched the PC. In this picture I can see no bridle but the PC is fully out and is partly inflated on her back in the bottom middle of her container. It should be noted that Shannon has near perfect body position at the time of her pitch. The third photo appears to be Shannon reaching straight back over her shoulders for her PC. At this time it is evident that the bridle is wrapped around her right arm/shoulder w/PC approximately in the same position as it was in the second photo. The fourth photo is Shannon getting close to impact and is on her back/side with nothing out. Her PC is not visible in this photo. With all of the talk of what has happened I felt it was important to share this information and debunk some of the rumors I have heard.
R.I.P. Shannon

Jamie Boutwell

[hookitt 0]

Jamie, Check your PMs

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[TVPB 0]

Just because you OR I have not seen it, it does no mean it has not happened.

Lazy throws are common. Just as they are on CRW jumps, freefall jumps, accuracy jumps, etc.

P/c gets caught on the back due to restrictions caused by packing errors and/or equipment configuration issues, OR, the most likely cause is placing the p/c into the burble on the back (lazy throw).

Everything happens in this sport. Any scenario you can dream of has probably already occured!!!

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[TVPB 0]

Hand held - student/inexperienced initiates throwing motion - i.e. hand with p/c moves towards body and then away, at full extension away the p/c is released. I have seen an inexperienced jumper released when the hand was directed towards the body and the p/c ended up on the persons back. Net result was a hessie a/c p/c in burble. IT cleared with wild thrashing and resulted in off heading. No video.

As I have said, anything is possible.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[TVPB 0]

Categorically YES. Your body is moving and it is displacing air molecules. This displacement induces turbulence / burble. As the body speeds up the burble magnitude becomes greater.

At lower airspeeds there is less likelihood of p/c hessies because it is physically harder to place your pilot chute there and the forces are not as strong as in higher airspeed deployments. I think it is worse around the 2 to 5 second mark - at terminal anything in the airflow will catch air and initiate deployment (i.e. bridle). At lower airspeeds the force is less and hence a bridle may not have sufficient drag to initiate deployment.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[Bigwallmaster 0]

I agree with your statement. Anything over 2 secs would fit well with your explanation. And Shannons case I think it sounds pretty clear from Jamie's email that she was well into the 3 to 4 second range before turned and realized a PC hessie was taking place.

Thanks for your response and clear explaination; it helps.

J.P.

[NickDG 23]

An old saying in tandem jumping goes, "no drogue, no main," but in BASE jumping it’s, “no pilot chute, no nothing.”

In my earlier days when toss time came I’d wind up and throw the pilot chute like Orel Hershiser flinging the last pitch in world series no-hitter. And at that time we were using, in general, larger and heavier pilot chutes, like the Hank 52. You could break a window with that bomb drogue. Of course this also led to off heading deployments especially on short delays as the weight and momentum of the pilot chute pulled your deployment off center.

It was then most manufacturers and many mentors started suggesting a less aggressive throwing motion and concentrating more on a squared up body position. So now instead of launching a pilot chute like the hand grenade it is many are tossing like they are skydiving. But, pilot chutes are lighter and smaller nowadays and even if an aggressive throw skews your opening, who cares, especially off a bridge, most of us would settle for an open canopy no matter which way its facing . . . because at least it’s still an opening.

If you’re going to stow, you’d better really throw . . .

NickD BASE 194

[mfnren 0]

Any chance that the pc mesh got caught on some exposed velcro? It seems pretty common for the shrivel flap to be pulled away from the velcro through ordinary movement..

[SBCmac 0]

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It was then most manufacturers and many mentors started suggesting a less aggressive throwing motion and concentrating more on a squared up body position. So now instead of launching a pilot chute like the hand grenade it is many are tossing like they are skydiving. But, pilot chutes are lighter and smaller nowadays and even if an aggressive throw skews your opening, who cares, especially off a bridge, most of us would settle for an open canopy no matter which way its facing . . . because at least it’s still an opening.

If you’re going to stow, you’d better really throw . . .

To all, not just NickDG...

Please be careful not to have a knee jerk reaction to what happened to Shannon. What I mean is, out of the thousands and thousands of jumps that have gone off the TF’s bridge, let's not start telling new people to be OK with off-headings because of one burble fatality. Granted, NickDG I know you probably mean only the TF bridge, because I know of three spans that I jump that an off heading can/will seriously injure/kill you. So if that is the case, my worry is that most students use TF to learn and it’s going to be hard for them to apply a different throwing technique when it really matters…

All in all, I know we are all struggling to understand what happened to Shannon… But realistically, you’ve just got to do the numbers. The TF’s bridge is probably the most jumped object in America. It is bound to see mal’s that we don’t see very often, especially given how many jumpers show up to TF’s for events like Memorial Day.

Again just my thoughts…

Michael

BATMAN - (A.K.A. SBCmac ...)

[NickDG 23]

Yes, I sort of agree with that, but there's been more than one fatality attributed to pilot chute malfunctions, and many more close calls . . .

I was intent more on explaining the process whereby we reached the point we are at now, rather than change anything. And I'm as guilty as anyone when it comes to an occasional lazy toss.

One thing noticeable at TF, and a sad thing too,- is if you take into account how far we've come in 30 years, how much more we know, and how much more effectively we are at passing info around - there are still people making common sense mistakes.

I cautioned several from jumping hand held with the bridle running out the bottom of their hands. And I saw others going with so much exposed mesh their pilot chutes were partially inflated before they threw, but the topper was the hand held jumper who brought both hands into her chest and then threw the pilot chute out - I mean, come on, are you trying to entangle?

The problem, I think, might be as simple as Jack-ism . . .

Jack is from your home DZ, he’s a BASE jumper, and he’s teaching you because he’s a really cool guy. You come to something like TF on Memorial Day and even though you’re surrounded by some of the most knowledgeable jumpers in the sport, you’re sticking with Jack. Maybe you got lucky and he’s a good Jack, but maybe you didn’t and he’s a bad Jack. How do you know?

Please, are you interested in BASE? Then take a BASE course – any established BASE course, because after all you really don’t know Jack . . .

NickD BASE 194

[SBCmac 0]

Awesome post Nick ...

BATMAN - (A.K.A. SBCmac ...)