obelixtim 100 #26 June 7, 2011 You failed to answer my question, so I'll repeat it. Is a head up body position during parachute deployment dangerous?. Simple question, simple answer, yes or no. And I've made it quite clear that I was not referring in any way to students or their training. Perhaps you didn't notice that in your haste to get the flamethrower lit up.... I'm not able to post pictures or clips with the computer I'm using at the moment., not that I don't want to. But, and this goes back to when throw out pilot chutes were invented...one example There was a series of shots that came out maybe 30 years ago, of Terry Gardiner deploying the new fangled Wonderhog, I think you'll find the sequence in Skies Call 2 or 3. Take a look at his body position. It was also printed on T shirts like a film strip of the deployment sequence. Maybe you've never seen CRW jumpers deploying. Or SL and early FF students deploying after a strut dangle. Or paratroopers exiting aircraft since before WW2. None of them seem to adopt a flat body to earth position. They must all be doing it wrong. Quick, alert the relevant authorities. I'm sure they'll listen to you...My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #27 June 7, 2011 Although the OP's original posts leaves us with the impression that he was unaware of the correct EP's, at the end of the day is sounds like he did the right thing under the circumstance(dealing with the total mal). Good job of cutting away that downplane. I've seen way to many people ride those in. And, there is no good reason (in my mind) for that. OP... Thanks for your post. If nothing else, it made us think about the situation again and mentally practice our EP's. Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topdocker 0 #28 June 7, 2011 QuoteOk. thanks everyone. I have ruled out the following: The PC was cocked as i checked it twice. My rig is equipped with a pud. My throw was normal so I am pretty sure it was not a lazy one but it could have still been caught in my burble. At the end of the day, I cut away my main and landed safely with my reserve. I just was trying to learn from the experience of others and share mine so we can all fly safely and enjoy the sport. Peace. Then check your routing of the bridle, it may be getting trapped by your d-bag against the bottom of the reserve container when you s-fold it and close. That could make your pilot chute stay in your burble and provide no extraction force. As you deployed the reserve, the main bridle was released and both came out. If it happened once, it can happen again unless you can find and correct the error. topJump more, post less! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #29 June 7, 2011 Quote Maybe you've never seen CRW jumpers deploying. Or SL and early FF students deploying after a strut dangle. Or paratroopers exiting aircraft since before WW2. None of them seem to adopt a flat body to earth position. They must all be doing it wrong. I may be wrong here, but aren't all those examples of jumpers opening soon after exit, so although they are not belly-to-earth, they are all belly-to-relative-wind? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #30 June 7, 2011 TQuotehen check your routing of the bridle, it may be getting trapped by your d-bag against the bottom of the reserve container when you s-fold it and close. That could make your pilot chute stay in your burble and provide no extraction force. As you deployed the reserve, the main bridle was released and both came out. If it happened once, it can happen again unless you can find and correct the error. top A short bridle cord could also be a problem as well, but it can be overcome with a positive throw of the PC in the first place.... If the deployments have been OK for all his other jumps, and he hasn't changed his way of packing, closing the container, or his PC, or any other components, then it might just have been a lazy dump....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #31 June 7, 2011 QuoteQuote Maybe you've never seen CRW jumpers deploying. Or SL and early FF students deploying after a strut dangle. Or paratroopers exiting aircraft since before WW2. None of them seem to adopt a flat body to earth position. They must all be doing it wrong. I may be wrong here, but aren't all those examples of jumpers opening soon after exit, so although they are not belly-to-earth, they are all belly-to-relative-wind? Nope... paratroopers on a rope are usually pushed back to the wind as soon as they exit and then have their canopies deployed."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #32 June 7, 2011 Quote I may be wrong here, but aren't all those examples of jumpers opening soon after exit, so although they are not belly-to-earth, they are all belly-to-relative-wind? You are absolutely correct, but the point I am making is that the parachutes still deploy above their heads as they drop below the open canopy. They are effectively standing up with the parachute deploying almost, but not quite, straight up behind their heads. I.E. the bag, lines, and parachute effectively deploy in a manner that is on much more of an angle than if they were belly to earth or even sitting up 45 degrees relative to the horizon. Big Noise was saying such a deployment could cause a lot of problems....I'm saying thats not necessarily so. But I expect him to jump all over the same point....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #33 June 7, 2011 Yes, you're right. Sorry. Static lines are different as they do not rely on relative wind in the same way as pilot chutes do. ETA - I may be getting out of my depth here! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #34 June 7, 2011 QuoteI may be wrong here, but aren't all those examples of jumpers opening soon after exit, so although they are not belly-to-earth, they are all belly-to-relative-wind? Nope... paratroopers on a rope are usually pushed back to the wind as soon as they exit and then have their canopies deployed. Actually, thinking about it, if the Paras go out of the tailgate of a Herc for example, they are back to the relative wind, the canopy is blown over their heads by the prop blast. So thats even more extreme than the scenario of a head up in FF deployment.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #35 June 7, 2011 Quote QuoteI may be wrong here, but aren't all those examples of jumpers opening soon after exit, so although they are not belly-to-earth, they are all belly-to-relative-wind? Nope... paratroopers on a rope are usually pushed back to the wind as soon as they exit and then have their canopies deployed. Actually, thinking about it, if the Paras go out of the tailgate of a Herc for example, they are back to the relative wind, the canopy is blown over their heads by the prop blast. So thats even more extreme than the scenario of a head up in FF deployment. You're also not going as fast, and the canopy is only blown 'over your head by the propblast' (which... is really just the wind) once it is at full line stretch and inflating."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #36 June 7, 2011 Quote Maybe you've never seen CRW jumpers deploying. Or SL and early FF students deploying after a strut dangle. Or paratroopers exiting aircraft since before WW2. None of them seem to adopt a flat body to earth position. They must all be doing it wrong. Quick, alert the relevant authorities. I'm sure they'll listen to you... You're digging yourself a deeper hole, ol' man. CReW jumpers, static liners, and hop n poppers aren't head high to clear a pilot chute as you suggest in your ongoing misinformation spew. They are head high because they deploy on or shortly after exit - when the wind is horizontal or nearly so! Of course they are head high. Head high IS belly into the relative wind when one's path through the sky - and therefore relative wind - is horizontal. Jumpers should be head high (or more accurately belly toward the front of the plane, be they head high or head low) to be belly into the wind upon exit. This is the very kind of dangerous misinformation that we have talked about on these forums repeatedly. Short of personal assaults, no one can stop such sh*t from being posted here, so I guess we will just have to continue calling people out for posting it. Really man, think about your post above. If you really are NZ D-84 with 30 years in the sport, you should know better by now. If you don't, you are just plain dangerous.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #37 June 7, 2011 Quote Quote I may be wrong here, but aren't all those examples of jumpers opening soon after exit, so although they are not belly-to-earth, they are all belly-to-relative-wind? You are absolutely correct, but the point I am making is that the parachutes still deploy above their heads as they drop below the open canopy. They are effectively standing up with the parachute deploying almost, but not quite, straight up behind their heads. I.E. the bag, lines, and parachute effectively deploy in a manner that is on much more of an angle than if they were belly to earth or even sitting up 45 degrees relative to the horizon. Big Noise was saying such a deployment could cause a lot of problems....I'm saying thats not necessarily so. But I expect him to jump all over the same point.... Actually the argument here is completely different with no logical comparisons to freefall skydiving. Military static line rigs are designed to deploy in a different configuration than a freefall sport rig. Nothing more, nothing less. They are specifically design for the deployments you see. Sport rigs are designed to deploy best with the jumper's belly squarely into the wind (whether that's at terminal or 1 second off the plane).Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #38 June 7, 2011 Quote ... paratroopers on a rope are usually pushed back to the wind as soon as they exit and then have their canopies deployed. That's because paratroopers don't care where they are going. They only want to know where they've been, My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #39 June 8, 2011 QuoteActually the argument here is completely different with no logical comparisons to freefall skydiving. Military static line rigs are designed to deploy in a different configuration than a freefall sport rig. Nothing more, nothing less. A pilot chute and SL essentially perform the same function when a parachute - any parachute, military or otherwise is deployed..... Gravity works the same way for all...or so every skydiver I know, civilian or military, thinks so anyway. Does it work differently where you are? Rigs, both military and sport, SL or FF, don't differ that much in basic design and principle of operation. You can SL a sport rig and step off the ramp of a Herc. It will work. The parachute will deploy cleanly, clear of the jumper, with either system...whether face to earth or upright. The body drops below the deploying parachute in either situation At NO point did I say looking over your shoulder was the wrong thing to do...in fact I clearly stated that I train students to do exactly that. QuoteThey are specifically design for the deployments you see. Sport rigs are designed to deploy best with the jumper's belly squarely into the wind (whether that's at terminal or 1 second off the planeWink). Can you point out exactly where I disagreed with that, or said anything different?... Is a head up body position on deployment dangerous in your view?. Its only the third time I've asked you that. Very simple question...you seem to struggle to come up with a simple yes or no. I assume you are not familiar with the Terry Gardiner Wonderhog deployment photos, (Hence no comment from you) which I suggested showed a perfectly clean and safe deployment in a head up position. ( he's probably close to, if not 45 degrees to the horizontal). Its quite a famous series of 5 or so shots, which I'm sure many people are familiar with...you asked for a reference to such a photo. I gave it. Again, I was never giving advice to STUDENTS about checking their canopy in a different way. I'm very well aware how people, especially low timers, can misinterpret information. I was giving advice to a jumper with 170 jumps how pitching properly and adopting a slightly head up position while doing so, COULD help PREVENT hesitations in the first place. I would expect him to be quite capable of using, OR disregarding, that advice as he sees fit. Nothing to do with checking the canopy. That would come later as per the USUAL method. I'm not quite sure why you are so seemingly het up about my posts, but I suspect it stems from previous posts I've made about open canopy fatalities and injuries.... As far as slagging me off as being dangerous, stupid and a couple of other not very nice things, I don't think personal attacks further the discussion very well. I'm a big boy and can handle that, so fill your boots, if you think that is effective....It just doesn't complement your points very well. Would you be so keen to say those things face to face?.... Anyway it sounds like the OP might be on the right track, so thats gotta be good.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #40 June 8, 2011 Quote Rigs, both military and sport, SL or FF, don't differ that much in basic design and principle of operation. You're very wrong. B-bye.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RIGGER160 0 #41 June 8, 2011 I would say there is a very large difference in the way they work. The first and biggest thing that comes to mind is the difference in physics between a round and a square. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #42 June 8, 2011 QuoteI would say there is a very large difference in the way they work. The first and biggest thing that comes to mind is the difference in physics between a round and a square. And you'd be right....but with the canopy packed in a bag, the deployment is staged in the same way. The opening characteristics of the canopies might be different, but how the canopy is pulled out of the container and bag is basically the same. The body position of the jumper as this occurs is the doesn't change, whatever the canopy is doing......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
P-dro 0 #43 June 8, 2011 Quote OP... Thanks for your post. If nothing else, it made us think about the situation again and mentally practice our EP's. You mean besides preventing departing main/reserve entanglement or damages to the reserve canopy or lines by the hardware on departing riser ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyper 0 #44 June 8, 2011 QuoteQuoteI would say there is a very large difference in the way they work. The first and biggest thing that comes to mind is the difference in physics between a round and a square. how the canopy is pulled out of the container and bag is basically the same. Obelix with all due respect for your experience, but there are large differences in deployment sequence of round chute and wing chute. To start with - round chute does not have a deployment bag at all, at least not those I´ve been jumping with. I do agree with you that sliding backward position during deployment might be good. At least to lessen the pressure on your back during the opening shock. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #45 June 8, 2011 QuoteObelix with all due respect for your experience, but there are large differences in deployment sequence of round chute and wing chute. To start with - round chute does not have a deployment bag at all, at least not those I´ve been jumping with. Not ALL systems have a deployment bag, but there are plenty of rounds (static line and freefall) with bags, and many more with diapers."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Glitch 0 #46 June 8, 2011 QuoteI do agree with you that sliding backward position during deployment might be good. At least to lessen the pressure on your back during the opening shock. And you'd be wrong, IMHO. Flat, belly to earth at deployment distributes the shock better....Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #47 June 8, 2011 QuoteQuoteI do agree with you that sliding backward position during deployment might be good. At least to lessen the pressure on your back during the opening shock. And you'd be wrong, IMHO. Flat, belly to earth at deployment distributes the shock better.... A backsliding opening once landed me in the hospital, so I tend to agree there. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #48 June 9, 2011 I guess that some of you guys are not reading and understanding so I'll repeat what Chuck said: Quote Sport rigs are designed to deploy best with the jumper's belly squarely into the wind (whether that's at terminal or 1 second off the plane). Backsliding at opening time is NOT a good idea. Period. Is it another one of those, "I heard it somewhere it so it must be true" scenarios? It was mentioned that the backslide would help prevent PC hesitation. What I will ask you is this: Why would you want to disrupt your best canopy opening opportunity to compensate for a weak throw? Why not do a proper throw like you're supposed to do in the first place? Your telling people to fergiddaboutit on the throw and telling them to waste the good opening opportunity by backsliding on opening. That, my friends, is just If any of you are teaching your students to backslide on opening, please cease and desist.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyper 0 #49 June 9, 2011 Quote Quote Obelix with all due respect for your experience, but there are large differences in deployment sequence of round chute and wing chute. To start with - round chute does not have a deployment bag at all, at least not those I´ve been jumping with. Not ALL systems have a deployment bag, but there are plenty of rounds (static line and freefall) with bags, and many more with diapers. I thought so. Back sliding was advised to me by an "experienced skydiver" to lessen the preassure on my back during the opening. So I did it several times and it works, but obviously this position introduces some other problems which I was not aware of... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #50 June 9, 2011 I'm not advocating a huge backslide and skating all over the sky, that would be silly. It would be pointless to track in one direction, and then backslide back in the direction you just came from. All I'm suggesting is pitching from a stable position, THEN bringing your arms forward to tilt your body into a head up position AS THE CANOPY IS DEPLOYING. This will alter the windflow across your back after pitching, and MAY help to prevent hesitations in the first place. I'm talking about a process that lasts no more than one or two seconds at most, and puts your body into the position you are going to be pulled up into within short order anyway. Plus it keeps your shoulders level, thus keeping even tension on your lines and risers during the deployment, AND puts you into a good head up body position IF you then have to bring your hands in for EP procedures, which often results in a head down body position if you have nothing out.... Its not something I've suddenly dreamed up out of nowhere....its a procedure I've always used, as have many others, with NO problems at all. Somehow my suggestion has been misinterpreted as: A) Not checking the deployment. B) Changing the proven method of checking. C) Inducing a huge backslide. D) Adopting a sitfly position. E) Increasing the chances of a horseshoe malfunction. F) Aimed at students. G) Dangerous. None of which I advocated at all.My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
