Two canapies out in a downplane

[mikeLooney 0]

This weekend I had an experience I hope does not repeat itself. At 3500 feet, I pulled my pud and tossed my pilot out. I expected the usual tug from my main canopy opening but it didn't happen. At 2200 feet I pulled my reserve and left my main cutaway handle in place. The reserve opened fine, but I immediately felt a second tug and discovered that my main opened. The reserve went into a down plane facing me and my main went to my back in a downplane. At first it created a rocking motion but quickly turned into an accelerating spin. I really don't know caused this to happen. I think either my main's pilot was not catching air and was in my burble or I had some sort of bag-lock that popped free when my reserve deployed. What do you think? What would you have done differently? Oh and yes, I landed off but safely. Thank God for baseball fields!

[obelixtim 100]

Sounds like maybe you had a hesitation, from not throwing your pilot chute out properly, and just dumped it into your burble.

If you sit up after throwing, it will normally clear a hesitation. Did you have a look before dumping your reserve?, because you don't mention doing so....

So how did you deal with the downplane....chop the main?, or sort it out....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[Squeak 17]

pretty ordinary EP practice.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[chuckakers 370]

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Sounds like maybe you had a hesitation, from not throwing your pilot chute out properly, and just dumped it into your burble.

If you sit up after throwing, it will normally clear a hesitation. Did you have a look before dumping your reserve?, because you don't mention doing so....

So how did you deal with the downplane....chop the main?, or sort it out....

The OP may have had a p/c in the burble, but "sitting up" after pitching is a really bad idea. Doing so can result in everything from a hard opening to a horseshoe mal from snagging.

A better idea might be to do what every - I hope - student is taught in the FJC. Simply tip your sholders off-level by looking over your shoulder to see what's happening back there. I have yet to see that not clear a burbled p/c just fine.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[shayelk 0]

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What do you think? What would you have done differently?

I was taught if you pulled and nothing happened- tip your shoulders and look back to see what's up- still nothing? chop first, THEN deploy reserve. you chop to avoid this exact scenario

[obelixtim 100]

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The OP may have had a p/c in the burble, but "sitting up" after pitching is a really bad idea. Doing so can result in everything from a hard opening to a horseshoe mal from snagging.

I didn't actually mean going to a sitfly position. After pitching, arms forward and tucking the knees in a little will pitch the body up. (About 45 degrees into a bit of a backsliding position). This is a good position to be in when then going for your handles. Your head is also pointing in the right direction to see the next sequence of events.

Going from flat to head down, also gives a chance of an entanglement with the legs, and also can give a snappy opening as you get the big flick....

Another advantage is it keeps your shoulders square and even. (I wasn't sure what sort of canopy he was jumping, not a biggie on a student canopy, but something smaller and faster might make for a different opening experience..)

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A better idea might be to do what every - I hope - student is taught in the FJC. Simply tip your sholders off-level by looking over your shoulder to see what's happening back there. I have yet to see that not clear a burbled p/c just fine.

As you say, the method taught for clearing a hesitation for generations is still valid, but I've seen it not work if done lazily, with a pilot chute just sitting on the butt...

Both methods work, I prefer sitting up a little....

Pitching the pilot chute vigorously is the lesson to absorb....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[popsjumper 2]

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I think either my main's pilot was not catching air and was in my burble or I had some sort of bag-lock that popped free when my reserve deployed. What do you think? What would you have done differently?

This is scary. You reacted having no clue what was going on.
I think you need to revisit, study, drill and re-drill your life-saving EPs.

I think you got lucky.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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If you sit up after throwing, it will normally clear a hesitation.

Careful here, IMHO. OP, 167 jumps listed, little knowledge of EPs.
If he doesn't know to look, I'd be hesitant to tell him to do anything else while not knowing what was going on.

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Did you have a look before dumping your reserve?

He obviously didn't look because he had no idea what problem he had...that's why he's asking what happened.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[nigel99 143]

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I think either my main's pilot was not catching air and was in my burble or I had some sort of bag-lock that popped free when my reserve deployed. What do you think? What would you have done differently?

This is scary. You reacted having no clue what was going on.
I think you need to revisit, study, drill and re-drill your life-saving EPs.

I think you got lucky.

With a lazy throw can you see the pilot chute if you look over your shoulder?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[popsjumper 2]

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With a lazy throw can you see the pilot chute if you look over your shoulder?

Yes, that's what you do. Oftentimes, you can even feel it back there.
If you don't rotate, something is going on behind you that is not standing you up. Look over your shoulder while maintaining your good, neutral body position.

Alternatively, check every time.
Arch
Reach
Throw
Check

The only problem with that is that you may have something else going on that doesn't manifest itself right away and you may miss it if you check too early in the opening process.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[SwampGod 0]

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I was taught if you pulled and nothing happened- tip your shoulders and look back to see what's up- still nothing? chop first, THEN deploy reserve. you chop to avoid this exact scenario

We simplify emergency procedures for the First Jump Course. Muscle memory and acting fast are more important than trying to remember subtle details. So we teach students to cutaway first in emergency situations.

However, you'll find many more experienced jumpers (myself included) that would go straight to their reserve in a hard pull, low pull, or pilot chute-in-tow. In this case (I've thrown my pilot chute but nothing came out), I'd rather have a two-out than a main entangling in my reserve.

I'm not trying to turn this into a debate on which method is better, for there seems to be a fairly even split on how people would react. Just be aware that it's acceptable to not cutaway first in some situations, assuming you are situationally aware enough to act fast and PROPERLY.

Thanks!

-eli

[obelixtim 100]

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He obviously didn't look because he had no idea what problem he had...that's why he's asking what happened.

I'm aware of that, but I wanted HIM to answer the question...

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[topdocker 0]

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I pulled my pud and tossed my pilot out. I expected the usual tug from my main canopy opening but it didn't happen.

"Pud" being the operative word here. Unless the OP is misnaming the equipment, I would look more at misrouted lanyard or uncocked pilotchute.

top

Jump more, post less!

[chuckakers 370]

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The OP may have had a p/c in the burble, but "sitting up" after pitching is a really bad idea. Doing so can result in everything from a hard opening to a horseshoe mal from snagging.

I didn't actually mean going to a sitfly position. After pitching, arms forward and tucking the knees in a little will pitch the body up. (About 45 degrees into a bit of a backsliding position). This is a good position to be in when then going for your handles. Your head is also pointing in the right direction to see the next sequence of events.

First, I said nothing about transitioning to a sitfly position. Second, tilting 45 degrees backwards creates a radical backslide, so if the burbled p/c takes any amount of time before launching, the jumper would have a dramatic increase in fall rate which could result in a hard opening. It could also lead to the main bag, lines, and risers hitting or snagging on the bottom of the reserve container resulting in a horseshoe or in-the-bag line twists, a p/c bridle snagging on a main container flap, and any number of other issues.

And for the sake of newbies who may actually take your advise to heart, please don't . Newbs, your equipment was designed to deploy in a belly-to-earth, stable body position. Your best chance of a good opening is to stay that way to let everything cleanly lift off your back and be pulled away from you.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[obelixtim 100]

You might have noticed me saying "I prefer to do this", and that the traditional method is as valid as it has ever been.

I'm not into giving advice that is likely to hurt people or cause problems....

The OP has about 170 jumps or so...I would expect him to be able to modify his opening sequence to prevent hesitations, which is what I was suggesting to him....adjusting your body position as you dump to prevent hesitations.

I'm surprised after 170 jumps he seems unaware of what to do, although he's obviously done it successfully most times.

I wasn't advocating a true sitting position nor throwing in a backloop or anything radical..

Its basically adopting the position the canopy pulls you into as it deploys anyway...

The normal track off, flare, wave, then pitch puts your body basically into the position I am talking about. Its almost one continuous movement.

I bet if you watch yourself on video, thats prolly what you will see....

Anyway, the point is really about pitching properly in the first place.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[mikeLooney 0]

Ok. thanks everyone. I have ruled out the following: The PC was cocked as i checked it twice. My rig is equipped with a pud. My throw was normal so I am pretty sure it was not a lazy one but it could have still been caught in my burble. At the end of the day, I cut away my main and landed safely with my reserve. I just was trying to learn from the experience of others and share mine so we can all fly safely and enjoy the sport. Peace.

[chuckakers 370]

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The normal track off, flare, wave, then pitch puts your body basically into the position I am talking about. Its almost one continuous movement.

I bet if you watch yourself on video, thats prolly what you will see....

Uh, no I wouldn't. And I can honestly say I have never seen videos or real-world situations - and I've seen and/or videoed my share - in which anyone routinely sat up by 45 degrees from horizontal to insure p/c launch as you suggested.

Maybe you could provide us with a youtube link or two depicting people sitting up at 45 degrees after pitching out.

I'd love to see them. Really.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[popsjumper 2]

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He obviously didn't look because he had no idea what problem he had...that's why he's asking what happened.

I'm aware of that, but I wanted HIM to answer the question...

Ooooops...sorry.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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And for the sake of newbies who may actually take your advise to heart, please don't . Newbs, your equipment was designed to deploy in a belly-to-earth, stable body position. Your best chance of a good opening is to stay that way to let everything cleanly lift off your back and be pulled away from you.

+1
That's the way it was designed to work. That's the way it works best. Students are trained for solid, stable, neutral body position at opening time for a reason and that's it.

Thanks, Chuck

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[tdog 0]

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We simplify emergency procedures for the First Jump Course. Muscle memory and acting fast are more important than trying to remember subtle details. So we teach students to cutaway first in emergency situations.
-eli

Here is some interesting reading on Hicks Law - and the time it takes to make multiple decisions:

http://www.hockscqc.com/articles/hickslaw.htm

Any way you interpret the data - having multiple "if this, then this" type reactions take additional time - some might argue as much time as it would take just to cut away and pull your reserve instead of deciding if you should cut away first, then reacting...

Therefore - I like for both students and experienced skydivers alike:

"If you moved your hand towards your main, and it did not work - cutaway and pull your reserve. If you decided to go straight to your reserve, that is just fine."

This simplifies the process into one yes/no solution.


But you say:

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However, you'll find many more experienced jumpers (myself included) that would go straight to their reserve in a hard pull, low pull, or pilot chute-in-tow. In this case (I've thrown my pilot chute but nothing came out), I'd rather have a two-out than a main entangling in my reserve.

I agree with the low pull - it fits my rule. Hard pull - nope, I still cutaway. It is too time consuming for me to ask myself, "why is it a hard pull? Did I pull it too far such that it might dislodge on reserve activation?" But I would not worry if someone else said, "hard pulls - I just go to my reserve"...

But one comment of yours that caught my eye - the PC in tow -- I have always had the school of thought I rather cut away first and then deploy my reserve in a PC in tow situation as the reserve opening might dislodge the pin and allow the main to try to open. This is further justified as I don't know if I will always have the wherewithal and ability to see/differentiate between a PC in tow and a baglock, and if I have a baglock I want all that crap to leave before I put my reserve into the airspace. And, I could tow that PC for a while before it opens, and if I should happen to be on landing, I don't want it to open then. I also don't want to be trying to grab it behind me after my reserve opens when I should be trying to pick a safe landing spot.

So what are your reasons for wanting the PC in tow to stay connected?

I honestly wonder - are there stories of PC in tows that have been cut away - and the timing sucked so bad that the cutaway PC in tow cleared in a way to foul the reserve as the reserve was opening - such that keeping it connected for the same scenario would have been preferred???

[obelixtim 100]

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Maybe you could provide us with a youtube link or two depicting people sitting up at 45 degrees after pitching out.

I'd love to see them. Really. Wink

Sorry I can't post pictures or clips....but just to clarify a point.

Are you saying that being in a head up body position during deployment of a parachute is somehow dangerous?.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[obelixtim 100]

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+1
That's the way it was designed to work. That's the way it works best. Students are trained for solid, stable, neutral body position at opening time for a reason and that's it.

I totally agree, and thats how I train my students.....

Hey, I'm not looking for a shitfight here, And I'm aware of the danger giving advice that can be taken the wrong way,

But, my reply to the OP as you may recall, simply asks him "Did you look".

It was a specific question directed at a jumper with 170 odd jumps already under his belt, who should have a better idea of what to do than appears to be the case..

I suggested a way of altering the airflow over his body in a slightly different way, which can be incorporated into the wave off and pitch action, that would likely minimise the chances of a hesitation.

At no time did I suggest to the skydiving world changing the time honoured method of checking for a PC hesitation was a good idea, and especially not for students.

For more experienced jumpers, especially with a HP canopy, keeping the shoulders level during deployment minimises the chance of a snakey opening...Nothing wrong with being in a head up position after pitching.

Most jumpers would be putting their arms forward after pitching.....even Chuck, though he says no.....

There is nothing dangerous in being in a head up position during deployment, and it sure beats being head down, on your side, or on your back.....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[DanG 1]

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I honestly wonder - are there stories of PC in tows that have been cut away - and the timing sucked so bad that the cutaway PC in tow cleared in a way to foul the reserve as the reserve was opening - such that keeping it connected for the same scenario would have been preferred???

I believe that's what happened to Mike McGowan. The video is probably floating around out there somewhere. His departing main riser snagged the reserve slider, and pulled it back up the reserve lines. He only survived because he landed in tall trees that broke his fall.

- Dan G

[chuckakers 370]

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Maybe you could provide us with a youtube link or two depicting people sitting up at 45 degrees after pitching out.

I'd love to see them. Really. Wink

Sorry I can't post pictures or clips....but just to clarify a point.

Are you saying that being in a head up body position during deployment of a parachute is somehow dangerous?.

You can't post a link to a youtube video of jumpers routinely at a 45 degree head-hi angle to the horizon making sure their pilot chutes launch cleanly? That really surprises me because I thought sure you would find tons of the real pro skydivers doing it in skyvids. After all, there are plenty - thousands, probably - of shots on youtube of people deploying. Surely you could find just a few to illustrate your point.

Tell ya what, Einstein. You post even just a handful of links to those types of videos and we can talk. Until then I'll just consider you another crackpot posting horsesh*t that some unsuspecting noob might actually do someday because "it sounded like a good idea at the time".

Careful who you listen to out there, kids.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[hchunter614 0]

Yes but we also teach students to throw, (count) 1000, 2000, 3000, check. That "check" is looking over your shoulder to ensure you have a canopy, which you usually do. If you do have a PC caught in your burble, the check should clear it and allow the deployment sequence to continue.