WARNING: Colorado big E sizzling

[pope 0]

4/24/2006:

I have it on good authority that there were three arrests made at BCOG in the last 24 hours.

Advising to lay low on it for awhile, and any out of towners to Colorado planning on coming here to jump contact CO locals to get more information before you plan any extra-curricular jumps around the state.

The jumpers in question are all very experienced, technical jumpers all of whom have solid BASE ethics, and more than enough skill and knowledge to have pulled the mission off. All have multiple jumps from the object, and they used the method currently accepted as the most responsible, "leave no trace" method (sunrise exit), using additional ground crew as well.

All rigs were confiscated pending further notice. Word from "the man" is that they're "after BASE jumpers this year with a vengeance", due to some less-than-good judgement exercised by (ummm, large?) groups of jumpers near the end of the '05 season. I'll put it this way; the word "swarm" was used when describing the arrest by one of the jumpers.

Please stay away from this (and any surrounding) cliffs until further notice. Info will be posted as it becomes available.

Easy on the questions--I'm just the messenger.
pope

[TomAiello 25]

I've cleaned up this thread. Let's keep the random banter out of the serious topics, please.

Thanks!

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[sum1sneaky 0]

This is really not my business except that I have interest in the state of our local objects, and that good people just got the shaft when they shouldn't have.

From what I've heard it seems like the large groups earlier in the year left quite a trace and that the trace they left angered the rangers and motivated them to start making arrests.

It's a shame when a few idiots stuck in the moment ruin the good things enjoyed by the rest... and in this case it seems that the more responsible jumpers walked into a mess left by the previous jumpers.

I'm not yet warming the tar, but it certainly sounds like we should all at least have a good long talk about this!

Any members from the group before the busts care to tell your side of the story?

[jimmyp 0]

It's not a secret who got caught in BCNP. It was me, Marta and Jay E. The reason that I post this is to let anyone thinking about jumping here to think twice and in comparison to other NP's, to show the professionalism of the Rangers who we dealt with. I wish that the other NP rangers would lighten up and realize that they are just doing their job and we are just doing ours. Here's the story:
Our jump was at first light, the Black has a new climbing ranger, he saw the permit filed for backcountry access, got his binoculars out and saw us coming up the SOB gully with packs on. There had been alot of activity in the Canyon while the park was closed this Winter/Spring and one group of jumpers even left a tyrolian traverse across the river, they were not impressed with this apparent lack of respect for the canyon, leave no trace and all. Someone else filled out a backcountry permit while the park was closed and put Jack Meoff as the permit holder and wrote at the bottom NPS sucks. They blamed jumpers for this, the jumpers who left the tyrolean said they wouldn't do this, so this sounds like a coincidence that jumpers got blamed for, I sure hope so. Anyway, I was first up the gully and saw the NPS truck parked at the top of the trailhead on the road. I hid my stashbag in the trees and came up the trail like it was no big deal. When he saw me, he started to back the truck up and tried to hide behind some bushes. I knew then that he wanted to talk to me. I continued up to him like it was no big deal, I was just out for an early morning hike. He was a younger guy and I said "wow" I can't believe those guys climb those walls. He said, yeah, what else? I said, "yup", not wanting to say any more than I had to. He said, with a knowing smile, "where's your pack that you were hiking up the gulley with?" I knew at this point it was hopeless to argue and would only make matters worse if I tried to lie. There's one way out of the canyon and one road into and out of the park. I knew that I had to produce a pack and the only one I could produce had a parachute in it. I told him that we had jumped and how about letting us go? He said that was up to his superior who was on the way. Bummer. Three more Rangers showed up and there was one younger guy who seemed to be taking the whole thing personally and really wanted me to have an atitude so he could pull his pistol and shoot me, at least in the leg so I couldn't get away. There was a girl Ranger with him who was totally cool and not upset at all. She defused the whole situation with her cool attitude. Then the head Ranger showed up and he was totally cool too. They seemed to really appreciate the fact that I just told the truth and wasn't trying to make up a big story that they wouldn't have believed anyway, due to the climbing ranger seeing three of us coming up the gulley with packs. The head Ranger was completely professional and had about 40 jumps in the Army. We joked around a bit and asked him what he thought about what Abe Lincoln had said, "The Truth shall set you free"? He said, not this time. Marta and Jay showed up with their stash bags, I had called them on the radio, letting them know just to bring their packs up, we were seen with them coming up the gullley. The head ranger wrote up the tickets and said to appear in Grand Junction on the date that would be assigned to us via mail. Now this is the cool part: He let us keep our cameras, helmets, shin guards and wingsuits. All he wanted was insurance that we would show up in court. He wasn't trying to be "The Man and keep us down" and all that. So yeah, we did it and although it shouldn't be illegal, for now it is, so we will show up in court and hopefully the judge will hug us and say that of course it shouldn't be illegal, you are citizens of this country and these parks are yours to enjoy. "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is one of the most famous phrases in the United States Declaration of Independence. It is listed as one of the "unalienable rights" of man and woman.
Jimmy

[lifewithoutanet 0]

Way to make the best of a bad situation, Jimmy. Props to the three of you for taking the high road. That will help to cast us all in a better light, if only as one instance in one park.

Sounds like you still got your rigs confiscated, but very cool that you kept the rest of your kit. Hopefully you'll get them back, but if not, Jay was travelling with good company when he lost his.

I believe mere possession of a rig on park land is grounds for confiscation (right, wrong or indifferent), provided they 'know' a jump has occurred. Is that correct? Thought it happened to a couple of Moab locals on the fringe of Arches who had jumped outside the park, but crossed through it w/ unpacked rigs on their hike out.
-C.

Editted to make more sense.

[badenhop 0]

Hello,
So, how were the flights?
God bless you.
Avery.

==================================

I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton

http://www.AveryBadenhop.com

[jimmyp 0]

All flights were unbelievable, this place should be legal.
JP

[blitzkrieg 0]

man, total bummer. thanks for the update and good luck in court.

[psychokiwi_base 0]

Jimmy mate, sounds like the young guy with the itchy trigger finger needed you to tell him the story about the time when you destroyed your parents Mercedes. Or at least the time you tied your tent to the wheel of your car and then drove into town to get supplies. That might have made him feel a little less threatened by you.
Sorry to hear it though. I've always wanted that one.
Chin up mate I'll see you soon.
Matt

[jimmyp 0]

It was brought to my attention that it wasn't Abe Lincoln that said the truth shall set you free, it was Jesus. They both had beards, give me a break, for Christ's sake!
JP

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

It was brought to my attention that it wasn't Abe Lincoln that said the truth shall set you free, it was Jesus. They both had beards, give me a break...

Bwahuahuahua...

Quote

...for Christ's sake!

That just makes it even better.

[Sssss 0]

>>I said, "yup", not wanting to say any more than I
>> had to. He said, with a knowing smile, "where's
>> your pack that you were hiking up the gulley with?"
>>I knew at this point it was hopeless to argue and would
>>only make matters worse if I tried to lie.

You were partially right. Lying is stupid. But saying ANYTHING is stupid. You had no gear on you, and nobody saw your face when you jumped. They really had nothing on you at this point. Think about OJ. Yet you saw a cop and got scared out of your mind, and spilled your guts. You got charged with air delivery, right? So how could it have been any worse?

It is so frustrating to see how stupid people are about this. The government has the burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you jumped. When you admit to doing it and give them the evidence, how hard is it going to be for them? If you had said NOTHING at all, not one word except maybe to identify yourself if asked, they would have a much tougher time proving you did anything.

People have this stupid preconceived notion that if they are nice to the cops then they might be let go. That might be so, but it is damn rare if it is. But if you give them nothing to use against you, you win whether there was a chance they would let you go or not.

I try to get this across to base jumpers all the time and they still can't seem to muster the courage to do it. How can you have the balls to jump from a fixed object but not have the guts to just shut the fuck up when someone wearing a uniform asks you stupid questions? If some crackhead off the street started pestering you, you would tell them to fuck off. A cop is no different. You don't owe them any more answer than you owe a random homeless beggar.


>> There's one way out of the canyon and one road
>>into and out of the park. I knew that I had to
>>produce a pack and the only one I could produce
>>had a parachute in it.

The burden is on the government to produce that evidence, not on you.

>>Three more Rangers showed up and there was one
>>younger guy who seemed to be taking the whole
>>thing personally and really wanted me to have an
>>atitude so he could pull his pistol and shoot me, at
>>least in the leg so I couldn't get away. There was a
>>girl Ranger with him who was totally cool and not
>>upset at all. She defused the whole situation with
>>her cool attitude. Then the head Ranger showed up
>>and he was totally cool too.

Cops are trained in this. They are experts in manipulating people. Check out the movie Tango & Cash for some good cop/bad cop.

If you cooperate with them, not by answering any questions but by standing where they want you to and not resisting, they probably won't shoot you.

Also, don't consent to a search of any of your belongings or your person. Do not resist, but don't give consent. When they say something like, "Why can't we search it, do you have something to hide?", just repeat that you do not give consent. You don't have to answer that stupid question either.

>>They seemed to really appreciate the fact that I just
>>told the truth and wasn't trying to make up a big
>>story that they wouldn't have believed anyway, due
>>to the climbing ranger seeing three of us coming up
>>the gulley with packs.

Aren't you happy they appreciated you? Of course they are glad you gave it up and they didn't have to look like idiots. Imagine how stupid the cops would look if they sat there begging you to admit jumping and tell them where the gear was. There is no need to make up a story, and any story you give them will likely give probable cause to arrest you. So don't say anything.

>>Marta and Jay showed up with their stash bags, I
>>had called them on the radio, letting them know
>>just to bring their packs up, we were seen with them
>>coming up the gullley.

How do you feel about ratting your friends out? I am to the point I would rather just jump by myself because you can't trust your friends not to cave in to cop pressure and turn you in.

>>The head ranger wrote up the tickets and said to
>>appear in Grand Junction on the date that would be
>>assigned to us via mail. Now this is the cool part:
>>He let us keep our cameras, helmets, shin guards
>>and wingsuits.

You get ALL your gear back if you win. You have no chance of winning now and will pay a huge fine.

>>The reason that I post this is to let anyone thinking
>>about jumping here to think twice and in
>>comparison to other NP's, to show the
>>professionalism of the Rangers who we dealt with.

It appears that the difference between these rangers and those at the other park is that they let you keep some gear and didn't throw you in jail for a night or two. To me this difference does not justify paying that massive fine, being on probation for a year, and possibly not getting the rest of the gear back. If you had not given them probable cause to arrest you in the first place, then the difference in rangers means nothing.

I know this post is very harsh and I feel really bad for the people busted. I just hope to make an impression on anyone else that might read this so they might make better decisions if they end up in the same situation. Just like anything, the key is to practice. Have some buddies play good cop/bad cop on you. Imagine how you are going to act when cops are threatening you. By the way, cops are allowed to lie about most things as part of an interrogation...

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. Speak to a lawyer who is licensed to practice in your state (or in fed court as is the case here).

[lifewithoutanet 0]

A jumper was busted in a city (not far from this park) and that jumper was charged heavily. The DAs wanted no part of any plea-bargain and were unwilling to lighten the sentence. They had what they needed (they thought) to convict this jumper and proceeded on w/ prosecution. In the end, they lost. All good, right?

In response, they decided they would not let this happen again and as a result, that city is one of a few that has it's own "aerial delivery" laws, making BASE jumping (I think even mere parachuting) within city limits a crime.

Had Jimmy, Marta and Jay put up a fight, they might have gotten away w/ it, but that might have put MORE heat on this site and turned what were otherwise professional and courteous officials into someone w/ a bit more of a hard-on for us.

I'm just saying, choose your battles. Not all of them need to be fought.

I still say BRAV-FUCKING-O, Jimmy. Good job.

-C.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

"You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say, can and will be used against you."

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[lifewithoutanet 0]

Quote

"You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say, can and will be used against you."

It's not that simple. Cops know, are trained and most often expect to deal w/ this. Would you rather go the route they expect or throw them a curve and attempt to gain the upper-hand on the situation on your own?

I'm not saying there's absolutely one way to go. I'm saying that if you think you have to fight the system every step of the way, you might win the battle, but you'll lose the war.

-C.

[TomAiello 25]

Also remember that some of the folks (well, more like all of them) involved in this situation are likely to meet again during the planning phase of this parks management policy. When that happens, and they discuss legal jumps and permitting, it's going to help a lot if the chief ranger (who is likely to be there) remembers them as "hey, those were the mature, professional guys" rather than "those were the guys who kept playing hard ass, and made me waste a bunch of my time."

In this sense, Jimmy, Marta and Jay have really stepped up to take one for the team, accepting a bust for themselves, but retaining some credibility as responsible, professional representatives to negotiate for the rest of us.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[jonege 0]

This suggests that you think by exercising your right to remain silent and not to incriminate yourself is somehow unprofessional. I couldn't disagree more. You do not have to be a jerk about it, but you do not HAVE to say anything. If you DO say anything, DO NOT LIE. But you can politely decline to answer their questions. If they get abusive, all the more reason NOT to say anything. And if they question you about any illegal or potentially illegal conduct, you can tell them you would like to speak with your lawyer before answering any questions. At that point, they are required to cease questioning you until you have counsel or until you tell them you are willing to talk without counsel. Again, you don't have to be a jerk about it. It IS possible to politely inform them that you do not want to talk about such matters without your lawyer present. That IS one of your rights in this country, and you should NEVER feel bad about asserting your rights.

[Sssss 0]

I am not going to debate every uneducated comment that comes up on this forum, but some of these deserve a response.

Exercising your constitutional rights is not attempting to gain the upper hand over a cop or playing hard ass. You can't outsmart them at their game no matter how smart you think you are. The best plan is to shut up. I didn't suggest being confrontational. In case I wasn't clear in the other post, NEVER confront a cop or refuse to comply with their orders. They can, and will, beat you down. That has nothing to do with giving no answer to questions, or asking for a lawyer, or saying no when asked for consent to search.

The air delivery law charged here has been around for decades. It has held up in the ninth circuit, and the US Supreme Court denied certiorari (refused to hear the appeal). Notice that nobody is being charged with that new federal base jumping law? There is no reason for them to risk charging something new that has not yet withstood appellate review when the old one has.

It doesn't matter how many laws they make. As long as you don't make incriminating statements, consent to searches, or give up evidence in some other way (like showing them where you hid the gear) you have the best chance of avoiding prosecution, hefty fines, probation, and a criminal record.

lifewithoutanet, you have been reading too many comic books. Where do you get this battle/war nonsense? I don't see you offering to pay anyone's fines.

I guess Tom dropped out before he took Crim. Pro.

Go sit in at an arraignment or early resolution hearing (where you accept a plea bargain), it is open to the public. You will see that even the judge will explain your basic rights to you in case your lawyer forgot! Nobody but a cop will look down on someone for exercising those rights. Who cares what a cop thinks?

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

(This board software apparently condenses a double-space after a period into one space.)

[pBASEtobe 0]

You think "Sssss" and "jonege" are one and the same...?

[jonege 0]

We are not, but I absolutely agree with him/her, and despite the disclaimer at the end of his/her posts, I suspect he/she IS a lawyer, or at least has a significant amount of formal legal education. I AM a lawyer, and although I do not practice criminal law, many of my colleagues do, and they would ALL tell you the same thing Sssss has said. You almost NEVER do yourself any favors by bearing your soul to the cops. You NEVER do yourself any favors by being an ass to them, either, but you do not have to, and generally SHOULD not, confess your sins to them. Oh, and by the way, I do not represent you or anyone else on this forum, and neither this post, nor my prior posts in this or any other thread on this or any other forum constitute legal advice. You should not rely on anything you read on the internet and should consult an attorney licensed in your state with respect to any legal questions you may have.

[badenhop 0]

Hello,
You seem to be quite the legal eagle.
Is there anything morally wrong with being truthful?
God bless you,
Avery

==================================

I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton

http://www.AveryBadenhop.com

[lifewithoutanet 0]

Comic books... Yeah, that Sun Tzu writes one bitchin' strip. One day maybe he'll break out and get into the anime scene. Think he's up to it?

Specifically, on the 'battle/war' quote, I was paraphrasing a Vietnemese General who, at the signing of the Paris Peace Accords was confronted by an American general who said: "You know, we beat you in every major battle."

The Vietnemese general responded:
"That is true, but it is also immaterial."

It's an analogy, as out of context w/ BASE as your comparison to the OJ Simpson Trial, but applicable if you consider a single court case to be a "victory".

Quote

I don't see you offering to pay anyone's fines.

And I don't see you offering pro bono representation. I'm not criticizing anyone who would take a different path from what these guys chose to do. I think under the circumstances, they did the rest of us a service, and may have made their chances a little better when they do go to court.

Not everything requires a lawyer and some things would go well enough without one. Fight it like it's a crime and yeah, they just might treat you like a criminal.

-C.

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

...they would ALL tell you the same thing Sssss has said. You almost NEVER do yourself any favors by bearing your soul to the cops.

I wasn't thinking about legal ramifications, or what happens in court. I was thinking about what happens in backroom negotiations and committee meetings.

In those cases, you might be better off to consult a lobbyist and a political spinner than to consult a lawyer. If your goal is just to get off, that's one thing. If your goal is to maintain the ability to effectively represent and negotiate in future processes, that's potentially an entirely different thing.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

You think "Sssss" and "jonege" are one and the same...?

Not unless he can fly halfway across the US just to mess with folks on this forum.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[FIREFLYR 0]

Hey,
I think Jimmy, Marta and Jay took one for the team. Deffinately.
However,
I believe Sssss is offering the best advice as far as avoiding Arrest, prosecution,Fines.....
I've had a fair amount of run-ins with "the Man" and found that being polite but firm is the best response to interogation.
Untill you are in handcuffs you are just having a friendly chat, and you don't have to answer their questions, and as far as lying to them goes....
I would say I've done nothing wrong when asked if I had just made a BASE jump, and I bet that answer would even pass a polygraph because it's damned well the truth.
If they continue to Question you simply ask; "am I under arrest?" if they say no..."am I free to go" if yes...."I am invoking my fifth amendment rights." That's that.
Becides, if your gear is stashed, would you rather. it be in a bush or an evidence locker?
~J
PS: I might get around to writing more about how I feel about this article I read but untill then... I was reading the SF Chronicle and there was a front page article titled "Cutbacks Squeeze National Parks" it was continued on the entire back page,. It got me thinking.

"One flew East,and one flew West..............one flew over the cuckoo's nest"
"There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act"