friflaj 0 #1 February 27, 2004 Hi folks, I've been demoing a Sabre2 for a week, and while the flight characteristics were good, the openings, well, the openings *sucked*. Not hard, but invariably off-heading. The mildest I had was a sharp 90 degree turn, some would bank one way then immediately turn the other way, and a couple even went into a rather violent diving 360. I've jumped two different Sabre2s (from different dealers in different countries), so it isn't one particular 'bad' canopy. Other people that I know that own Sabre2s complain about the same thing. I had several different people pack it to see if that makes any difference. I don't look over the shoulder to watch the opening. I took all the time in the world for a couple of openings to make sure my body position was good -- no luck. I had one of the openings videod by a buddy, and it showed a nice stage 1 opening (6 or 7 cells open, flying straight) only to dive sharply to the right just after that. I currently fly a similar-size Stiletto, and I'm not having these same problems on that canopy. I know this has been discussed on and off on here, but what I couldn't find was anyone that had the same problem and then managed to correct it. If you have actually been able to tame the Sabre2, please let me know. [Edited] OK, I noticed the thread Saber 2 and End Cell Collapse just after I posted, the threads do overlap a bit but I'm specifically looking to cure the offheadings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FeFe 0 #2 February 27, 2004 only one of a three or four Sabre2s I've jumped had the same problem - so you must be damned lucky! on mine experience the slower it opened the more chances of off-heading openings try leaving nose alone wonderful canopy (but why would you trade Stiletto for it? Birdman?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottjaco 0 #3 February 27, 2004 have you tried stearing the openings with your rear risers? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
friflaj 0 #4 February 27, 2004 > try leaving nose alone I don't do anything with the nose > wonderful canopy (but why would you trade Stiletto for it? Birdman?) Yup. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
friflaj 0 #5 February 27, 2004 > have you tried stearing the openings with your rear risers? that helped for the occasions it had only minor off-heading (90 deg or so). For the diving 360s, all I could do was finish the 360 to get on heading again (stopping the turn was not really feasible), and levelling it out. It's not that they're dangerously uncontrollable, but they're certainly uncomfortable, and I wouldn't want to have been in a zoo-load 10 way with those diving 360s... the openings suprised me a bit since I was considering the Sabre2 for birdman jumps, and I didn't feel comfortable doing them with my Stiletto. Although my Stiletto openings are usually on-heading :/ go figure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #6 February 27, 2004 I suspect the opening problems are primarily canopy related, rather than packing related. So people without the problem can't generally claim credit for fixing it. Even if a specific canopy used to have the problem, and doesn't anymore, it can easily be attributed to subtle issues of line trim, etc., rather than packing technique. Note that I said in the first line "primarily" not "exclusively." -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #7 February 27, 2004 Quotehave you tried stearing the openings with your rear risers? Not a wise idea.Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFlyZ 0 #8 February 27, 2004 QuoteHi folks, I currently fly a similar-size Stiletto, and I'm not having these same problems on that canopy. I know this has been discussed on and off on here, but what I couldn't find was anyone that had the same problem and then managed to correct it. If you have actually been able to tame the Sabre2, please let me know. I know a guy(100-150 jumps) at our dropzone that purchased a Sabre 2 190 around the same time I purchased mine. He had the same issue, turns on opening. He sent it back to PD to get it checked. PD sent it back after checking it, said nothing is wrong. The guy has been jumping it for the past 2 months. The last time I asked him about the canopy he said that the problem was in how he was adjusting one side of his harness. He says it opens on heading now. Kris. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
colbrodie 0 #9 February 27, 2004 I tamed them by hiring the most incredible Packaho on the planet to pack mine! All openings are nice, soft, on-heading. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrogNog 1 #10 February 27, 2004 QuoteFor the diving 360s... Dang, I get those periodically myself. (Mostly on a Hornet, which I have been told is similar to a Sabre2. What "similar" means in terms of canopy temperament is unclear.) I thought it was just me. I have handled these by trying not to put hand pressure on the risers during opening, and pulling both rear risers when it tries to dive. It starts leveling out immediately when I do that. I have not yet had the calmness to do nothing and see where it goes. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #11 February 27, 2004 Quotethe threads do overlap a bit but I'm specifically looking to cure the offheadings Work on body position and harness symetry. I've jumped many Sabre 2's and not encountered any such troubles.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TimDave 0 #12 February 27, 2004 I agree with the harness thing to a point. The Stiletto should be more sensative than the Sabre2 (my experience) from harness input. It can't rule it out though. Have a rigger check the trim. Along with that, have the rings attached to something solid like a packing hook on a wall and pull firmly on the 2 equal length lines on the center cell and work your way out. This will set the lines and correct or show off any line trim problems you may have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #13 February 27, 2004 Re: Potentially steering or guiding the opening with rear risers... QuoteNot a wise idea. Why not? Please explain/elaborate for me if you would. THANKS! -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sneaky 0 #14 February 27, 2004 I put 480 jumps on a Sabre2 loaded at 1.5 over a 4 month period.... At the start it was quite eratic,but it settled down after 40 or so jumps... my trick is to leave the nose exposed and 1/4 the slider and put 3-5 rolls on the tail...I have a 120 so 3 rolls is the best... use good double stows with bungees and allow a forarms lenght in the bottom of the container.... And as quoted work on harness symmentry ...fly the canopy out of the container so to speak... When packing my first step is to tie the big harness rings on the risers together ( pull up cord ),so to ensure symmetry in the lines and packjob. This is a great canopy... just try the above and see....if that doesn`t work then do as the others in this thread have suggested.... Blue Skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WeakMindedFool 0 #15 February 27, 2004 What I've ended up doing (and I have far from enough jumps to give advice! This is as much an attempt to gain advice on whether what I'm doing is OK. I have some opinoins, but more is better in this situation) is flying out of the opening sequence. As soon as it sits me up my hands are on my rear risers. I counter any movment off heading and open my end cells with a light equal pressure. It works, but I also was looking for a packing fix.Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TimDave 0 #16 February 27, 2004 When you get to higher wing loadings on HP canopies they become very sensitive to riser input. This is magnified many times during opening since the canopy may only be 1/3 of it's inflated area. This makes them more sensitive. I learned that on my xfire2 109 (1.7:1) that the risers are too aggressive. I can deal with almost any off heading openings with harness shift. I was only not able to control 1 after the first 40 (learning). The one I could not, I chopped it after 6 360s in about 3-4 seconds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites friflaj 0 #17 February 27, 2004 Quotemy trick is to leave the nose exposed and 1/4 the slider and put 3-5 rolls on the tail...I have a 120 so 3 rolls is the best... use good double stows with bungees and allow a forarms lenght in the bottom of the container.... that sounds exactly like my packjobs QuoteWhen packing my first step is to tie the big harness rings on the risers together ( pull up cord ),so to ensure symmetry in the lines and packjob. Yup, same here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WeakMindedFool 0 #18 February 27, 2004 Cool, thank you! So do you think my method is safe at my current W/L? I have tried to use harness input but my canopy might not be loaded enough for it to be significant enough (and I'm not gonna load it more to get thereFaith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Trent 0 #19 February 27, 2004 Okay, no one get mad here... this is all just what I've seen. As a dealer, former Sabre2 jumper (now Vengeance), and permanent fixture at the DZ... I've noticed a couple of things with people who have problems with Sabre2's. Usually, I hear the most complaints from newer jumpers who have just moved from a student canopy (Sabres here) to a Sabre2. Now, they have also started jumping new rigs too. As Kris mentioned, we had one case where the harness was being tightened unevenly... albeit not THAT uneven, but enough. Usually the people who have consistent off-heading openings are experiencing their first elliptical canopy and haven't dialed in how important an even harness fit and even weight distribution is. More experienced jumpers I've seen demo Sabre2's, have not had the same problems at all. In my experience with my S2 135, I had slight off-heading openings, but nothing serious... AND they got better as I got more jumps! Hmmm.... BUT, if you do have a built in turn, then it needs to go back to the factory. Have other people on the DZ jump your rig and canopy. The more experienced the better. Just my observation.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites friflaj 0 #20 February 27, 2004 QuoteUsually, I hear the most complaints from newer jumpers who have just moved from a student canopy (Sabres here) to a Sabre2. Now, they have also started jumping new rigs too. As Kris mentioned, we had one case where the harness was being tightened unevenly... albeit not THAT uneven, but enough. Usually the people who have consistent off-heading openings are experiencing their first elliptical canopy and haven't dialed in how important an even harness fit and even weight distribution is. These were demo canopies flown in my own rig, which usually houses a Stiletto QuoteBUT, if you do have a built in turn, then it needs to go back to the factory. Have other people on the DZ jump your rig and canopy. The more experienced the better. There's others at my home DZ that jump the Sabre2, experienced people too, that come back with the same complaint. One of them switched back to her Stiletto because of the better openings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vdschoor 0 #21 February 27, 2004 QuoteThere's others at my home DZ that jump the Sabre2, experienced people too, that come back with the same complaint. One of them switched back to her Stiletto because of the better openings I was a little dissapointed at first too, specially since I already had a Sabre2 150 that didn't have problems and when I bought my second rig, that Sabre2 was having issues. I've mainly been jumping the new one, and after a while the openings were better and better. Overall, they have never been uncomfortable for me, in fact they have been very comfy, even with all the camera stuff strapped to my head. I am very happy with the canopy, but it was some getting used to at first.. I would say jump it some more, and pay close attention to your opening procedures! That's what fixed my problems I am sure. Iwan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TimDave 0 #22 February 28, 2004 What you are doing is not unsafe to control your openings. It will work at any wingloading. It is just a matter of how aggressive it is. For me it was too aggressive and my 90 left became 90 rights sometimes after over correcting with risers. I put my hands near my risers to take action in case of a possible caopy collision. If it works for you keep doing it. Most openings on canopies like yours and mine can be greatly affected for the good and bad by altering your body position in the harness. Just remember that you have 4 primary control inputs for your canopy, front risers, rear risers, harness and toggles (no particular order here). Learn how to use all of them and you will increase your ability to save your life and have more fun also. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WeakMindedFool 0 #23 February 28, 2004 Thanks for the info...I'll apply it!Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TimDave 0 #24 February 28, 2004 Happy to help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tinfoil 0 #25 February 28, 2004 There is another thread about the openings here. I'll throw in my solution to. Jumping a Saber2 150, loaded at about 1.15. First I make sure all the nose cells are very neat, then I roll the nose cells once, not all the tightly. Works very well, openings take about 800 ft and are on heading, and if I forget to roll the nose the openings are 45-360 degrees off. Maybe I should stop rolling the nose, cause the 360's are fun My $0.02, and followed my riggers suggestion. “- - Sumo is the greatest of sports. It has power, grace, speed and cluture. And most importantly, two fat bastards smacking the shit out of each other. ” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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FrogNog 1 #10 February 27, 2004 QuoteFor the diving 360s... Dang, I get those periodically myself. (Mostly on a Hornet, which I have been told is similar to a Sabre2. What "similar" means in terms of canopy temperament is unclear.) I thought it was just me. I have handled these by trying not to put hand pressure on the risers during opening, and pulling both rear risers when it tries to dive. It starts leveling out immediately when I do that. I have not yet had the calmness to do nothing and see where it goes. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #11 February 27, 2004 Quotethe threads do overlap a bit but I'm specifically looking to cure the offheadings Work on body position and harness symetry. I've jumped many Sabre 2's and not encountered any such troubles.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TimDave 0 #12 February 27, 2004 I agree with the harness thing to a point. The Stiletto should be more sensative than the Sabre2 (my experience) from harness input. It can't rule it out though. Have a rigger check the trim. Along with that, have the rings attached to something solid like a packing hook on a wall and pull firmly on the 2 equal length lines on the center cell and work your way out. This will set the lines and correct or show off any line trim problems you may have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #13 February 27, 2004 Re: Potentially steering or guiding the opening with rear risers... QuoteNot a wise idea. Why not? Please explain/elaborate for me if you would. THANKS! -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sneaky 0 #14 February 27, 2004 I put 480 jumps on a Sabre2 loaded at 1.5 over a 4 month period.... At the start it was quite eratic,but it settled down after 40 or so jumps... my trick is to leave the nose exposed and 1/4 the slider and put 3-5 rolls on the tail...I have a 120 so 3 rolls is the best... use good double stows with bungees and allow a forarms lenght in the bottom of the container.... And as quoted work on harness symmentry ...fly the canopy out of the container so to speak... When packing my first step is to tie the big harness rings on the risers together ( pull up cord ),so to ensure symmetry in the lines and packjob. This is a great canopy... just try the above and see....if that doesn`t work then do as the others in this thread have suggested.... Blue Skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #15 February 27, 2004 What I've ended up doing (and I have far from enough jumps to give advice! This is as much an attempt to gain advice on whether what I'm doing is OK. I have some opinoins, but more is better in this situation) is flying out of the opening sequence. As soon as it sits me up my hands are on my rear risers. I counter any movment off heading and open my end cells with a light equal pressure. It works, but I also was looking for a packing fix.Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TimDave 0 #16 February 27, 2004 When you get to higher wing loadings on HP canopies they become very sensitive to riser input. This is magnified many times during opening since the canopy may only be 1/3 of it's inflated area. This makes them more sensitive. I learned that on my xfire2 109 (1.7:1) that the risers are too aggressive. I can deal with almost any off heading openings with harness shift. I was only not able to control 1 after the first 40 (learning). The one I could not, I chopped it after 6 360s in about 3-4 seconds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
friflaj 0 #17 February 27, 2004 Quotemy trick is to leave the nose exposed and 1/4 the slider and put 3-5 rolls on the tail...I have a 120 so 3 rolls is the best... use good double stows with bungees and allow a forarms lenght in the bottom of the container.... that sounds exactly like my packjobs QuoteWhen packing my first step is to tie the big harness rings on the risers together ( pull up cord ),so to ensure symmetry in the lines and packjob. Yup, same here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #18 February 27, 2004 Cool, thank you! So do you think my method is safe at my current W/L? I have tried to use harness input but my canopy might not be loaded enough for it to be significant enough (and I'm not gonna load it more to get thereFaith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #19 February 27, 2004 Okay, no one get mad here... this is all just what I've seen. As a dealer, former Sabre2 jumper (now Vengeance), and permanent fixture at the DZ... I've noticed a couple of things with people who have problems with Sabre2's. Usually, I hear the most complaints from newer jumpers who have just moved from a student canopy (Sabres here) to a Sabre2. Now, they have also started jumping new rigs too. As Kris mentioned, we had one case where the harness was being tightened unevenly... albeit not THAT uneven, but enough. Usually the people who have consistent off-heading openings are experiencing their first elliptical canopy and haven't dialed in how important an even harness fit and even weight distribution is. More experienced jumpers I've seen demo Sabre2's, have not had the same problems at all. In my experience with my S2 135, I had slight off-heading openings, but nothing serious... AND they got better as I got more jumps! Hmmm.... BUT, if you do have a built in turn, then it needs to go back to the factory. Have other people on the DZ jump your rig and canopy. The more experienced the better. Just my observation.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
friflaj 0 #20 February 27, 2004 QuoteUsually, I hear the most complaints from newer jumpers who have just moved from a student canopy (Sabres here) to a Sabre2. Now, they have also started jumping new rigs too. As Kris mentioned, we had one case where the harness was being tightened unevenly... albeit not THAT uneven, but enough. Usually the people who have consistent off-heading openings are experiencing their first elliptical canopy and haven't dialed in how important an even harness fit and even weight distribution is. These were demo canopies flown in my own rig, which usually houses a Stiletto QuoteBUT, if you do have a built in turn, then it needs to go back to the factory. Have other people on the DZ jump your rig and canopy. The more experienced the better. There's others at my home DZ that jump the Sabre2, experienced people too, that come back with the same complaint. One of them switched back to her Stiletto because of the better openings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vdschoor 0 #21 February 27, 2004 QuoteThere's others at my home DZ that jump the Sabre2, experienced people too, that come back with the same complaint. One of them switched back to her Stiletto because of the better openings I was a little dissapointed at first too, specially since I already had a Sabre2 150 that didn't have problems and when I bought my second rig, that Sabre2 was having issues. I've mainly been jumping the new one, and after a while the openings were better and better. Overall, they have never been uncomfortable for me, in fact they have been very comfy, even with all the camera stuff strapped to my head. I am very happy with the canopy, but it was some getting used to at first.. I would say jump it some more, and pay close attention to your opening procedures! That's what fixed my problems I am sure. Iwan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TimDave 0 #22 February 28, 2004 What you are doing is not unsafe to control your openings. It will work at any wingloading. It is just a matter of how aggressive it is. For me it was too aggressive and my 90 left became 90 rights sometimes after over correcting with risers. I put my hands near my risers to take action in case of a possible caopy collision. If it works for you keep doing it. Most openings on canopies like yours and mine can be greatly affected for the good and bad by altering your body position in the harness. Just remember that you have 4 primary control inputs for your canopy, front risers, rear risers, harness and toggles (no particular order here). Learn how to use all of them and you will increase your ability to save your life and have more fun also. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WeakMindedFool 0 #23 February 28, 2004 Thanks for the info...I'll apply it!Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves. -Eric Hoffer - Check out these Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TimDave 0 #24 February 28, 2004 Happy to help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tinfoil 0 #25 February 28, 2004 There is another thread about the openings here. I'll throw in my solution to. Jumping a Saber2 150, loaded at about 1.15. First I make sure all the nose cells are very neat, then I roll the nose cells once, not all the tightly. Works very well, openings take about 800 ft and are on heading, and if I forget to roll the nose the openings are 45-360 degrees off. Maybe I should stop rolling the nose, cause the 360's are fun My $0.02, and followed my riggers suggestion. “- - Sumo is the greatest of sports. It has power, grace, speed and cluture. And most importantly, two fat bastards smacking the shit out of each other. ” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
