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jimmyh

Why some jumpers (me) don't take others (you) seriously.

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I'll take the bait for the debate and make this very simple. If you act like a bunch of punk ass kids (with giant attitudes), you get treated as such. Act like adults, and get treated as adults.

One of the things I liked about base when I started was that it was a serious sport practiced by serious people (who seriously party). A 14 year old attitude toward the sport (as if it was skate boarding) detracts from everything one does, and yes, will never get the benefit of the doubt that someone else doing nearly the exact same thing will because of it.


You can't begin to talk about ethics when you hang out with and teach base to a minor. It also speaks very loudly about your maturity level that a 35 year old man could actually "hang out" with a teenage girl at all. You talking about ethics makes one wait for a punch line.

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IN REPLY TO:
Action: I'm running through the hanger, and I accidentally trip, and yank your reserve handle, making you miss the next load and lose the 45 bucks you'd make flying camera for a tandem.

Attitude 1: I laugh and say "Hey, screw you, dude, I never liked you anyway. In fact, I think it's pretty damn funny that you're losing some money. Ha, ha, ha!"

Attitude 2: I say "Oh, shoot, dude, I'm really sorry. Here's my rig for that load. I'll take your rig into the loft and repack the reserve while you do that camera jump."


Same action. Different attitudes. Are you sure you'd react the same way in both cases?
-- Tom Aiello


You are wrong... these are two very different actions... one is an action of repairing the problem, one is not.

WRONG.... jimmy's right.

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IN REPLY TO:

Sure. But looked at it in BASE-ethics specific terms:

Example:

Action: I wander through your city and jump a building in daylight, nearly getting busted and heating things up nicely for you and your crew.

Attitude 1: I hold a press conference, taunt the cops, and declare myself "god of the skies, and world's best BASE jumper."

Attitude 2: I call you guys up and explain that I didn't know there were any locals, and apologize for bringing the heat onto your site.

My actions are driven by my attitudes, in either case.

WRONG AGAIN... your attitude 1 and attitude 2 are both actions... your wrong JIMMY IS RIGHT!

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IN REPLY TO:

"If you act like a bunch of punk ass kids (with giant attitudes), you get treated as such. Act like adults, and get treated as adults. "

TREE... YOU ARE STEALING THIS LINE FROM TOM, YOU SOUND LIKE A DAD OR A PRINCIPLE OF THE HIGH SCHOOL. I feel for you because you have no idea what punk ass kids really behave like... none if these guys are as bad as the kind of punk ass kids that will likely be balls deep on your daughter before you know it.

you have a giant atttitude as well tree, yours is just one of a big boring moustache having pig who is letting all the fun pass him by.

and oh yeah... there is nothing wrong with Jimmy hanging out with a 16 year old girl, just nothing at all. young adults these days mingle withh other young adults... it is a generation thing TREE.

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*** You are wrong... these are two very different actions.

Actually they are 2 very different "RE" actions. In both of the scenarios given the origanal incident (either the reserve popped or daylight jump) are the stimulus. We as humans can chose our reactions to that stimulus, but in any event it is the reaction to the stimulus that tends to cause the biggest backlash.

So if you do day jump in (unkowingly) someone elses area, and it gets noticed, thats the stimulus. You can't change that, as it has happened. Now you have several ways to address it (the reaction). 1. Call and apolagize and make it right. Buy the guys a beer and maybe go make a jump with them. 2. Go talk to the media, release some video, and while your at it tell everyone that your Mr Base and that you will do what ever you want where ever you want.

Same event (stimulus) very different reaction.

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"Ethics" is what we do, not what we think. Exactly that, no more no less. A good attitude only counts if it is expressed in action, and trying to distinguish identical acts based on the attitude underlying them is ridiculous.



At what point do we stop counting what we do?

This discussion isn't really about what is ethical or not.

It's about why some people find forgiveness for ethical transgressions and some do not.

I believe the key to that is the other actions they take, before, after, even during. Those other actions are generally perceived as indicative of their attitudes, so, as something of a shorthand, we describe those other, associated acts, as their "attitude."
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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...none if these guys are as bad as the kind of punk ass kids that will likely be balls deep on your daughter before you know it.



That's not appropriate here. Consider this your one warning.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Since my antics last night didn't get me banned, I still have the freedom to speak my mind here. Whether you read it, or care is actually irrevelant.

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But people like me have been here before most of you, and me not caring what you think, doesn't make me unethical, it doesn't make me anything. It just means that I don't care what you think.


to avoid the "ethics" semantic debate, try looking at it from a broader perspective.

pioneers need to be bold, independent, and indifferent to the common views of the day. Copernicus, Gallileo, Columbus, the Wright brothers, Carl Boenish, etc. all boldly thought outside the box.

once the trail was blazed, others followed. these folks found comfort knowing others defined the path. they appreciated signs, guideposts, maps, etc. to show the way. they also tended to protect what others established.

this whole "ethic" debate appears to reflect a tension between these 2 different types of people. imagine Daniel Boone leading settlers through the Cumberland Gap. I'll bet he had folks asking, "are you sure you know what you are doing?," "is that the right way to be treating the indians?," "won't XXXXX come back to haunt us?," etc.

'course many also died following less skilled guides...

Jimmy definately thinks more like a pioneer. his critics focus on how he deviates from a defined path. they try to establish conformity. he chafes at restrictions.
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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At what point do we stop counting what we do?



The only thing that counts is what we do.

I'm not sure I understand the question, so you're going to have to rephrase.

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This discussion isn't really about what is ethical or not.



Exactly.

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It's about why some people find forgiveness for ethical transgressions and some do not.



Yes. That's the issue.

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I believe the key to that is the other actions they take, before, after, even during. Those other actions are generally perceived as indicative of their attitudes, so, as something of a shorthand, we describe those other, associated acts, as their "attitude."



Tom, I understand what you're saying, but I just...disagree.

You receive forgiveness for an ethical transgression when you repent, show remorse and stop repeating the ethical transgression.

What seems to happen, though, is that certain people are being forgiven for justifying their ethical transgression. Not only that, a lot of the justifications are being made for them by the same people who are subjecting the rest to outrage for doing all the same things.

And because the "attitude" of that latter group "sucks," they take the full heat for what would get kudos if only the transgressor were someone more likable.


I haven't been reading this forum much in the last few weeks, so I missed the precipitating incident, and I've gotten only one very vague account of what went on. All I'm working from is what I've seen these past few years, and none of it is very pretty.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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Jimmy definately thinks more like a pioneer. his critics focus on how he deviates from a defined path. they try to establish conformity. he chafes at restrictions.



Yeah, well, that may be true, but a little respect for one's peers doesn't hurt.

And what you're offering is a much different argument--the one that justifies the behavior for all of them, not just some of them. Then you have a free-for-all.

Is that what you want to do? Or is there a middle ground between "who gives a fuck?" and "don't step off the path?"

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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I just read in another thread that one jumper's "ethics" are judged more on his "attitude" than his "actions." What the flip? I mean seriously, what does that mean?



Hey, Jimmy. I'm gonna feel all self-important for a moment and think that maybe you're referring to my post. What I said was that "I care more about a jumper's attitude towards his/her peers than I do about their attitude to whuffos. That doesn't mean I don't care how they portray the sport, but I try to give and expect a little respect within the community."

Attitude is a factor I consider in forming my own opinion about a jumper. It does not determine whether or not they're ethical or unethical. If an action of theirs betrays the spirit of BASE and they don't give a shit about that action (ratting another jumper out, as one example), that--to me--is an attitude problem that led to unethical behavior.

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An action is either ethical or it's not.



When you chalk it down to "an action is either ethical or it's not"... You're right. It's the action that's either ethical or unethical, but it's the jumper's motivation and attitude that play a large part in their behavior. You have to consider the circumstances and intentions.

A few examples:

Felix (is this horse dead, yet?) goes to illegally jump an object in broad daylight. Before doing so, he calls the media to let them know when and where. It's all over the news. Unethical. He's doing it for publicity, whether his own or to sell a few more cases of overpriced and undersized soft drinks.

The bicycle off the tower. It's already an illegal jump and I guess the bike fit within whatever protocol you guys have for jumping that site. Not unethical. Maybe unorthodox (if that can even be applied to BASE). Some might say a bit reckless (imagine if it had taken out a transmitter), and could potentially compromise the site, but protocol on a local's object is another discussion. In any case you've got your own cameras there and you put it in a video, but you're not sending footage out to the media. You're keeping it in the community.

Someone gets seen and shit ends up in the media. Shit happens. Maybe you'll call to question the timing of their jump and whether or not they were obeying protocols and maybe whether they should have been there in the first place, but they weren't out trying to get attention. The fact that they were seen does not make them unethical.

To clarify...I don't necessarily see the "look at me" or outspoken types as one and the same. And I don't see either to be unethical simply because they're drawing attention to themselves. That's a difference of style. It doesn't happen to be mine, but actually, I don't see anything wrong with it provided it doesn't compromise a site or take something from the sport. It's the actions that do that I have a problem with.

-C.

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Yeah, well, that may be true, but a little respect for one's peers doesn't hurt.


isn't that one of the argument the church used on Copernicus & Gallileo?

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And what you're offering is a much different argument--the one that justifies the behavior for all of them, not just some of them. Then you have a free-for-all.

Is that what you want to do? Or is there a middle ground between "who gives a fuck?" and "don't step off the path?"


I intentionally chose NOT to express an opinion. I prefer to let everyone decide for themself, instead of simply joining the most popular bandwagon.

I also acknowledge many pioneers commited horrific atrocities. they do so because they don't care about the common good. I'm not pleased with some of Jimmy's actions and really don't intend on defending them.

this debate seems driven by the extremes, not the middle ground. (another all too common feature...) I simply tried to illustrate why the two camps seem quite polarized.

if common ground existed, I don't think this thread would....
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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I edited all the POTATO BRIDGE rail jumps out of RADIX because in the end there were some good, reasonable arguments that pursuaded me to do so. Incidentally, in the same year continuum II came out and I believe I saw a rail jump in that video, who cares


i do 100% back you up on thisJimmy.
I were one of the persons telling you sh!t becourse of that,i can tell that i had a really bad feeling as i saw Contium II,that is trully doubbel moral and BAD taste.
I still belive the rail jumps shouldnt be done as the sherrif ask us not to,but Blaming the black sheaps for somthing but not the white aint right.
I think you showed more etics in removing the video from your video than Pope did showing thouse in Contium II... AND BASE COMUNITY showed lack of balls(me inkulding)telling Pope no sh!t..

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If anyone has an issue with me


i do,each time you finich a beer its always a small one try a pint or 1L. instead;)
doing while doing a flip were cool throughB|

It seems to me that there are 3 groups in BASE comunity
#1 thouse who are white sheeps,most of the time acsepted by most if not all jumpers

#2 Black sheeps,usaly called Jack a$$´s or red bull cowards,ballancing on the edge all the time usaly get them in trouble in group #1

#3 you dont really see often neither do you hear much about them,they have enough in what theyre doing and coulnt care less about #´s,rep. etc,mostly this group also are the most hardcore persons doing the hardcore stuff out there..

Now which group do you belong into?

Personaly im trying to be a grey sheep(call it group #1,5) i see the best from group #1 and #2 but know ill never be so cool that i can join group #3

Just my 0.2

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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Faber,
well said about the group thing.

The reason I periodicaly post things like ths is because of another group...group number "I'm just learning to BASE jump and I read the BASE zone to figure out what the sport is all about." I want them to know that nothing is 100% defined.

Lifwwithoutanet, if that bike had caused that antenna to get hot, or if the stucture had been damaged in any way shape or form, nobody would have ever even known that the jump took place. i sat on that footage for eight months, and I wish I could blame this thread on your post, but it's actualy in response to Tom's. Who by the way shuld be impartial on this forum cuz he's a moderator...he sais, "In all honesty, I think the major difference is in attitude.

Jeb (for example, but this category could include a bunch of folks like Troy Hartmann, Carl Boenish, etc) approaches other BASE jumpers with a relatively friendly, non-arrogant attitude. He understands that there are other jumpers in the world, and he makes an effort to interact with them in a positive way.

While that doesn't excuse any specific ethical transgressions, it does make it more likely that he'll be forgiven by other jumpers. If he were to do his thing and then yell "screw you guys, I'm the best in the world, and I'll do whatever I want!" at the top of his lungs, as often as possible, and as publicly as he could, he'd probably get a very different reception from most other jumpers.

Human interaction isn't that hard to puzzle out. Be a nice guy, don't blow your own horn in other peoples faces', and don't engage in an active campaign to intentionally antagonize other jumpers--and they are far more likely to be friendly and forgiving. "

I don't think i misunderstood him. Hypocrite.


And I'm not buying any "good ole days" B.S. about how BASE jumpers used to act more ethicaly than me. My dad was left in 1991 at the bottom of a canyon in Arizona, at an elevation of 6,000 ft., in November, with a broken back, all night, to die. Ever spent the night at six thousand feet, in Arizona, in November? By yourself because your BASE "Mentor" was scared to get caught? My dad din't die, but I still have a hard time accepting that the good old day jumpers were more mature than me.

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this debate seems driven by the extremes, not the middle ground. (another all too common feature...) I simply tried to illustrate why the two camps seem quite polarized.

if common ground existed, I don't think this thread would....



The de facto argument is that "if we like you, you can get away with breaking the rules; if you're a smartass who pisses us off, you're going to catch a lot of flak."

I just don't see that "attitude" justfies that kind of ethical relativism.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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Oh yeah, and Faber,
I was recently in the UAE filming some jumps. While there I shattered the old UAE beering drinking record. On my 33rd birthday I drank a yard of beer in 5.06 seconds. The old record had been set by an Aussie rugby player and had stood for two years: 7.8 sconds. The Manager of food and beverages of the 5 star Hilton Hotel said my time was a "new standard" my picutre is on the wall and everything. In doing so I got myself invited to the World Beer Drinking Championships which will be held later this year in Thailand.

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The de facto argument is that "if we like you, you can get away with breaking the rules; if you're a smartass who pisses us off, you're going to catch a lot of flak."

I just don't see that "attitude" justfies that kind of ethical relativism.


agreed.
the folks that show some interest in conformity appear less threatening and avoid criticism.
but inappropriate behavior is still inappropriate.
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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I was gonna stay out of this, but not now.

Treejumps wrote:
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It also speaks very loudly about your maturity level that a 35 year old man could actually "hang out" with a teenage girl at all.



Tree, thats wrong Bro. Dont even try and go there. Who the hell are you to judge him for who he hangs with, how old the person is that he chooses to hang with, and to speak about his Maturity level. Hell no. Thats so not cool man.

P.S. He's not that old.

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punk ass kids (with giant attitudes)



WTF man.



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I got myself invited to the World Beer Drinking Championships which will be held later this year in Thailand.


are you going?

[sarcasm] gee, I wonder if you'll be able to find ways to entertain yourself... [/sarcasm]

that just sounds like trouble. I just don't know for whom. (but I'm betting you'll be smiling.)
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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...Tom's. Who by the way shuld be impartial on this forum cuz he's a moderator...



Being a moderator does not mean you're not allowed to have, and express, opinions.

Without resorting to paid professionals, it would be impossible to find someone interested enough to follow these forums, but who had no personal opinions on any of the topics discussed.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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...Tom's. Who by the way shuld be impartial on this forum cuz he's a moderator...he sais, "In all honesty, I think the major difference is in attitude.



The moderator is also a participant. He has to work very hard to be impartial when it comes to moderating--and I think he does a good job--but he's still entitled to an opinion as a participant.

The problem arises when the other participants are unable to distinguish between the moderator's "moderator role" and his "participant role."

He has a lot of constraints, Jimmy. He can't always say what he'd like to say just because he's walking a very narrow line between the two roles.

I don't think it's fair to be critical of him for having an opinion about the matter.

rl

Edited to add: Oh dear, I didn't finish reading to the bottom. I hate when people do that.
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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Isn't this whole post about Tom A and some of the RB/LT crew not liking Tom? And a demonstration of the fagginess of the internet?

How can Clif be banned for 60 days (like him or not, agree with him or not) for posting a BASE ski event, while Tom the moderator still uses several login accounts and preaches about anti-hypocracy and ethics?

It seems that personal feelings will always get involved with discussions about ethics. And the internet is literally the last place that most BASE jumpers should be forming their decisions from.

Ethics have nothing to do with the fact that Felix has a negative connotation, and Jeb wears a white hat. I don't know either one of them, but the action of jumping in France's capitol city, off a landmark like that, in the daytime, is unethical, and no different than anything else that Felix has done. The action is unethical. However, none of us could do it if we wanted because I need all my gear unconfiscated, and can't afford to replace it.

If it wasn't snowing today, I would have kept the jumping every night streak. Instead I am here reading about other BASE jumpers define a word.

Ethical and unethical are easy to figure out- When someone is telling you a story about someone jumping something, wait until you've made your decision before you find out who it was.

Yawn, I wouldn't have put this much thought into a school paper.

And Jimmy, if you're really 35 and hitting a 18ish year old girl, see if she has friends out here.
---------------
Peter
BASE - The Ultimate Victimless Crime

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...Tom the moderator still uses several login accounts...



I've seen this twice in the last 2 days, from you and TruckerBASE.

I'm very confused about where this has come from? Can you elaborate? I have only ever had one account (TomAiello) here. I have had two accounts at BLiNC (first, I used "tbaiello," then I switched to "Tom Aiello").

Where are you getting this?
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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