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brabzzz

A couple of newbie BASE gear questions...

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Disclaimer - i have read much of the recommended reading (and, hearning the collective sigh of 'here we go again', I'm very aware there questions have been ad infinium on this, and other, forums). However, I'm strangely compelled to post regardless... :S

One word answers would be cool. A brief reason brilliant - and feel free to ignore my minds ramblings on point 6.

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Non-articulated, non-B52'd container, vented canopy .34v, 38v, 42v and 46 non-v PCs. Norway FJC in July, then 10 days out there.

1) Lineover modded toggels. Yay or nay for a first rig? I am aware Toms article advoctes against their use, but some manufacturers consider them 'standard'? I can see both sides of the argument...but can't form an opinion. There is enough debate here/elsewhere to mean there is obviously no right answer!

2) Dynamic corners? I have absolutely no plans for wingsuit base for the mo. Enough shit to think about as it is -and if the future goes down that path, i'll drop the $$$. Will 'enclosed' corners make packing easier/not be detrimental to openings?

3) There are little hole and big hole mesh sliders. For the sake of a few quid, do i want/need both?

4) Windloading. The biggest one will put me at about 0.675, the 2nd biggest at 0.73, assuming buttnaked weight + 10kg (though that will vary with gear carried, future fatness etc). To err on the side of caution - or would that invite those flying backwards situations?

5) One manufacturer advocates that the advantages of venting outweigh the (perhaps momentary) inflation delay on a 46'. I can't help but think that on soemthing requiring a 46' (i know people shorter than that!) i'd have the opposite preferences. Is this another debatable topic, or am i plain wrong? Not that i plan to be soemwhere where that 0.001s matters for a LONG time!

6) Velcro or Pins (I hear the colective sigh change to a 'WTF!'). There was a previous argument for velcro based around the idea that 'so much more can go wrong and it'll still work'. Wheras on a 2 pin rig, I'm not too happy with the idea of needing 2 pins to be TOTALLY out for it to open. There's no reserve and no tertiary method (cypres) to save my ass - so those pins -both- need to work perfectly. Wheras velcro can fail non-fatally in certain respects and it's performance might have a wider 'bell curve', pins are all or nothing. There is that, the packing 'advantage' and there extra simplicity (though i appreciate either has the potential to go very wrong if screwed up). There are technical benefits to pins, but my main reason for wanting velcro are those described - mainly the fact i simply don't such a blind faith in anything to work -perfectly-. Velcro doesn't (within reason) have to and that alone would make me calmer...i think. :S

My only concern is therefore big walls (norway fjc...). I have seen the vids of crazy aussies doing aerials with velcro. I realise i might be irrational in my distrust of pins, but is this an issue (no wingsuit, no aerials)? Is the 'velcro for beginners' argument less accepted that it has been in previous years - sales stats and number of recommendations for pins seems (based on dick all 'real' data) lower than several years ago.


Congrats if you've read this far (you must, like me, be pretending to be working...). Thanks for any advice, much appreciated!

---------------------------------------
Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club
www.skydivebristoluni.com

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First off, in regards to the sliders, the large and small mesh sliders are for jumping from different altitudes. There are also sail sliders for base canopies, like on a skydiving canopy, eventhough some base jumpers will recommend against them. Large mesh sliders are usually used for what is considered to be "low" slider up jumps (i.e anything that is high enough to safely use a slider up to whatever the jumper is comftorable with). The small mesh slider is made for "higher" slider up jumps (terminal). I am by no means even close to knowing much about any of this, but I have recently purchased a small mesh slider and have been using it on jumps that I used to use a large mesh with. I have been doing this under the advice of the owner of the base manufacturer of the specific gear I jump. I have noticed that the small mesh is a much more comftorable opening at these shorter delays, and not only that, I have had equal or BETTER heading performance with it. All while not noticing any significant altitude loss between deployment and full pressurization. I am not talking about very low altitudes, but I have been experimenting with the small mesh from 700 ft and above on generally "safe" objects and have concluded that I do like it much more. Having said all of that I would still recommend getting both sliders, for your experiences may vary from mine AND there are still some situations where I might want to use my large mest slider, but as of now, I must say, I use the small mesh much much more.
Hope that helps....don't take any of that to be factual info.
Bsbd.

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Rarely do I answer these type of posts, but you may find my comments to be thought provoking. Keep in mind that we didn't have pin rigs, lineover toggles, tailgates, etc when I began base jumping.....

1) Linever toggles are good. If you're uncomfortable using them for a lineover, then don't. They still work just fine to steer and flare.

2) Dynamic corners are a pain in the ass to pack if you aren't flying a wingsuit. You can always modify your rig later.

3) Purchase both large and small hole mesh, especially if you're going to do terminal jumps. You might find that your large hole mesh provides hard openings that can be softened with small hole mesh.

4) Wingloadings of .70-.75 are normal (from what I'm reading), but I load mine around .80. If you find yourself in between two loadings, it's probably best to choose the bigger canopy.

5) Vented canopies have proven themselves over time. I wouldn't hesitate on purchasing one for my next canopy, regardless of the type of jumps I'd be doing. But you may want to scrutinize the differences between the various vented canopies on the market.

6) Either Velcro or pins work fine. When I began base jumping, we laughed at the thought of pin rigs. I currently use both velcro and pin rigs and I'm comfortable with either one at any altitude. If I'm doing wingsuit jumps, I'll opt for the pin rig. Velcro rigs are probably easier to pack and have been around far longer than pin rigs.

We all have different opinions, preferences, and jump sites, so be sure to gather as much data as you can before your purchase.

Good luck.
(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

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First off, in regards to the sliders, the large and small mesh sliders are for jumping from different altitudes.



This is not neccessarily true.

BASE canopy manufacturers choose the sliders for their canopies based on a range of considerations, including the canopy trim, the slider size, and the slider material. It's not necessarily true that you can generalize about the use of a particular slider material for a particular delay.

Your best course of action in determining what slider you are using is to contact the manufacturer of your particular canopy, and ask them what they recommend for any particular delay, and for the specific canopy. Some of them will recommend small mesh for all delays, and some may even recommend large mesh for terminal (although, off hand, I can't think of any that do that, at the moment).

At any rate, be aware that if you are switching sliders to something that is not the manufacturers recommended (and tested) slider configuration, you are a test jumper, with all that entails.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Linever toggles are good. If you're uncomfortable using them for a lineover, then don't. They still work just fine to steer and flare.



Some thoughts on line release toggles:

When using them, I prefer a one handed release, where all you do is grab one tab, and pulling it releases both (a) the line from the toggle; and (b) the brake setting from the toggle stub.

(a) The old Gravity Sports SuperToggle was a 2 handed release. You had to pull the toggle off the riser, and then release the line from the toggle. If you just pulled the tab, the end of the line released from the toggle, but the brake setting remained set to the toggle stub. You had to pop the toggle to release the brakes, requiring you to either (a) do it in that order, or (b) use the manufacturers recommended procedure of releasing the toggle with one hand, then bringing the other hand up to the toggle and pulling the tab to release the line. Personally, I thought this process was too cumbersome.


(b) The WLO (What Line Over?) toggles, from Apex BASE, are a pin style toggle that allows a one handed release (you pull the tab, and the whole thing--brake setting and toggle--is released from the line). This is much faster, and also makes it easier to keep your toggle when you fire the lines off, because the toggle stays on the riser.

Unfortunately, my experience with pin stub toggles has not been entirely positive. I've seen at least 6 premature toggle releases, in person, on this style of toggle, and I'm personally not willing to jump them off any serious object. I've heard of several other cases of this happening, but haven't seen them in person.

I prefer the toggle stub (the part that locks the brake setting) to be stiffened cloth, because I believe it has more "grab" and is less prone to premature release. I've personally never seen a toggle of this style blow prematurely (I'm sure it's happened, I've just never seen it in person).


(c) The HPBG (High Puller Big Grab) line release toggles, from Morpheus, are apparently a cloth stub style toggle with a one handed release. The tab is designed to stay attached, and the second part of the pulling motion peels the toggle stub back, releasing the brake setting. Assuming these work as advertised (and I have no reason to believe they do not), this is the only style of line release toggle I'd recommend.


Note that I own, and have tested, the Gravity Sports SuperToggles and the Apex WLO's, but have not jumped the Morpheus HPBG toggles.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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1) Lineover modded toggels. Yay or nay for a first rig? I am aware Toms article advoctes against their use, but some manufacturers consider them 'standard'? I can see both sides of the argument...but can't form an opinion. There is enough debate here/elsewhere to mean there is obviously no right answer!



See my post above. Short answer: if you're going to use them, I'd get the High Puller Big Grabs from Morpheus. I wouldn't stress too much about getting them, though.


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2) Dynamic corners?...Will 'enclosed' corners make packing easier/not be detrimental to openings?



I like dynamic corners. They make packing a bit trickier at the very first, but you quickly get used to them. If you have a wrap around corner over them (like Morpheus, for example) they're even better in terms of looks and airflow (although that's not a major consideration). Enclosed corners might make packing a touch easier in the beginning, but I think the dynamic corners are worth it.



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3) There are little hole and big hole mesh sliders. For the sake of a few quid, do i want/need both?



Ask the manufacturer of your canopy what they recommend. When you are starting out, just go with that recommendation. If you want to skydive the canopy for practice, you might consider buying a sail (F-111) slider to use out of airplanes.


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4) Windloading. The biggest one will put me at about 0.675, the 2nd biggest at 0.73, assuming buttnaked weight + 10kg (though that will vary with gear carried, future fatness etc). To err on the side of caution - or would that invite those flying backwards situations?



The .73 is closer to textbook, and might be better for a beginner with good landing areas. If you're likely to have tight or rough landing areas anytime soon, I'd go with the .675 wingloading, especially being a bigger guy.

Be aware that the "size" numbers given by the manufacturers don't necessarily match up from one manufacturer to another, so you shouldn't switch canopy types thinking "well, this canopy comes in a bigger size." It may be that the largest size from one manufacturer has a smaller number, but is actually larger if you lay them out on top of each other. Pick your canopy for the canopy, and then just get the size that is closest. Don't pick your canopy for the sizing.



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5) One manufacturer advocates that the advantages of venting outweigh the (perhaps momentary) inflation delay on a 46'. I can't help but think that on soemthing requiring a 46' (i know people shorter than that!) i'd have the opposite preferences. Is this another debatable topic, or am i plain wrong?



I personally use vented 46" PC's but unvented 48"s. If I'm down under about 250, I figure I'm going to be throwing up and centered anyway, so the advantage of venting (damping an oscillation from a sideways throw) won't matter. Regardless, I'd go with the largest size PC you get as an unvented, because you'll be using it on the lowest stuff, when you ought to be using an upward (and centered) toss that doesn't create much (if any) oscillation.



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6) Velcro or Pins



I like velcro better for most beginners. Pins are much more popular though, and I don't think it's a huge deal either way. Just be sure that you know and understand the use of whatever container you select, and you'll be ok.

I've back tracked at terminal with a velcro rig and had no problems. You just need to be sure your velcro is well maintained.

Pin rigs have their own set of required maintenance and extra considerations (like the very remote possibility of packing a total), so it's pretty much a case of "six of one, half dozen of the other."


Hope that helps. Definitely gather as many opinions as you can. If there's one thing I know, it's that no one has the answers in this sport. The best you can do is get a bunch of opinions and use them to educate yourself and form your own opinion.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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the very remote possibility of packing a total



Even though it is of no use to me at this particular moment, I need to know. How does one pack a total?

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the very remote possibility of packing a total



Even though it is of no use to me at this particular moment, I need to know. How does one pack a total?



By not leaving slack above the pin. It's possible to trap the bridle into the pack job, and leave no slack such that the pin cannot be extracted (the bridle tension is pulling against the flaps of the container, rather than the pin itself, and without the pin being removed, the container flaps won't move, and if they won't move, the pin can't come out...).
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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That, and the possibility (through major gear negligence) of one of the pin/brindle attachment failing - leaving a pin 'in' and the jumper 'f*cked'. Don't know if it's ever happend, but it is a problem that is 'impossible' in a reserve+cypres skydiving rig. Poorly maintained velcro rigs have the opposite problem...

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428, Tom, RP - thanks for the advice given. I deliberately left out the manufacturer I was looking at as most of the questions were independent of that fact. It was morpheus tech, so the the lineover toggles would be as Tom recommended. I will of course ask for their advice on the two slider types.

I have previously read that some of the older velcro perigees were built too tight, with obvious annoying consequences before exit. Is there anything like this, or other factors, to be aware of with the Medusa should i decide to go velcro?

Thanks again for the advice,
Mike

---------------------------------------
Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club
www.skydivebristoluni.com

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1. line over mod toggles

i used to use em but had one release and thee canopy opened turning... i dont use them anymore also because with the height were opening at they might be just useless. hook knife i carry, but feel like it is a long shot too.

2. dynamic corners... dont bother, you can wingsuit and track and pitch even head down without em and the bottom of yer pack tray wont get in the way and if it does it shouldnt do much. more important is keep yer feet away. i dont like packing the corners, but dont mind much either,

3. sliders
just take whichever comes with and when yer in norway or have hard openings or snivelers then just look into buying the other one then... they sell em in Norway... this one isnt a big deal either way and most will agree.

4. wing loading
just go with the size chute that the manufacturers suggest or go with the one that you fit into well with the charts in their owners manual and on their websites.

5. buy f11 pc's I swear to god they isolate way less, vents dont do anything cuz their not big enuf and f111 pcs pack easier and work fine... for the super low ones go for a non vented ZP from BR size 45 or 48.... other than that f111 for all sizes, many older skool experienced jumpers swear by this as well.

6. PIN VS Velcro

If you are scared that BOTH those pins arent gona open get velcro... it works fine for winsuits and for terminal arieals and everything you just have to use your head and make sure it isnt worn or stressed or anything.

I would never buy a new velcro rig because the trend is towards pins and that means the velcro ones are going cheap used. plus the vision is the best velcro rig and you cant get those new anymore... 2nd choice would be soft cock.

dont forget about the one pin container as well. you can stand there and throw your PC in the living room and it will pop. it also is fine for all kinds of jumps.

you'll be fine with whichever, but if you have the loot splurge for a nice new canopy

what could possibly go wrong?

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buy f11 pc's I swear to god they isolate way less, vents dont do anything cuz their not big enuf and f111 pcs pack easier and work fine... for the super low ones go for a non vented ZP from BR size 45 or 48.... other than that f111 for all sizes, many older skool experienced jumpers swear by this as well.



F111 PC's definitely oscillate less than ZP. The issue is a little more complex than that, though.

F111: Dampen oscillation better than vented ZP (in my opinion).

Vented ZP: Last longer, stay in trim longer, inflate more consistently and faster.


In my opinion, F111 PC's are generally better except for very low exits or very low deployments, and only if you are careful about gear maintenance, and are willing to replace them relatively frequently.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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6) Velcro or Pins
The velcro eventually wears out. I own a velcro rig and love it for ultra low shit, (200ft and lower) when using PCA and static line.
One other diadvantage is climbing in a tight enclosed ladder. You have to be careful not to snag your shrivel flap on the metal surrounding the ladder.
I like velcro, but I have a 2 pin container ordered, and I am sure that I will continue to use my velcro rig. Just my 2 centollies!
321CYA
Sitflybaseboy
BASE 1043 Night BASE 160
BASE is to skydivers as skydiving is to whuffos

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The velcro eventually wears out.



Closing loops wear out too. It's just that it's very easy for most jumpers to change out closing loops (I carry an extra set in the pocket on the back of the mud flap), and much harder for most jumpers to change out velcro.


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One other diadvantage is climbing in a tight enclosed ladder. You have to be careful not to snag your shrivel flap on the metal surrounding the ladder.



I've actually found that this works the other way around. Velcro gives you notice that it's going--you hear a ripping sound, you have a chance to stop and fix it. If pins get snagged on something, they just go--pop--and you're done, with a canopy falling down the ladder.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I own a velcro rig and love it for ultra low shit, (200ft and lower) when using PCA and static line.


i wouldnt use a velcro rig sub 200ft,reasson?
I do belive that setting the right pintention on a set of spectra loops will open the container faster than ANY velcro rigs will no matter if you prime it(which i also does to my pins sub 200ft..

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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I own a velcro rig and love it for ultra low shit, (200ft and lower) when using PCA and static line.


i wouldnt use a velcro rig sub 200ft,reasson?
I do belive that setting the right pintention on a set of spectra loops will open the container faster than ANY velcro rigs will no matter if you prime it(which i also does to my pins sub 200ft..



Note that he specified for PCA and static line. Done correctly, a PCA or static line makes the opening force required for the container pretty much irrelevant.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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why the velcro is better for 200ft under jumps? i agree with faber....i have done lots of 200ft with 2pin and i wouldnt do them with velcro....whats the point? tell me....

_____________________________________________
F......ck the Finns !!!
FastPete www.pete.fi email: [email protected]

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