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Anvilbrother

Fatalities, leaving a jumper behind, and the Pact.

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It has been pointed out to me by two people who actually read the link I posted that Dead Mike was not dead. And indeed, I was working from my memory of the accounts at the time, not from Mike's account on his website, which clearly states that he was not dead.

It really does pay to have one's facts in hand before posting, so that one does not then have to make corrective posts such as this one.

That said, this morning I went googling for life after death, and it is clear that determining death is not so easy as it seems. My example was bad, but the premise is not. Although Mike did not cross the Great Divide, there are quite a few people who have been clinically dead but not brain dead who have come back and gone on to live long and one hopes, happy lives.

In most places, EMS cannot pronounce unless:

A. The patient has no obtainable vital signs and demonstrates postmortem rigidity and/or lividity.

B. The patient has no obtainable vital signs and demonstrates generalized decomposition.

C. The patient has no obtainable vital signs and has severe head trauma and/or torso wounds with exposure of brain matter or visceral contents. (An exception is made for a full-term or near-term pregnant woman, in which case, the hope is to save the baby.)

D. The patient has no obtainable vital signs and 100% full thickness total body burns with no hope for salvage.

E. The patient has no obtainable vital signs and demonstrates decapitation or complete severance through the trunk.

F. The EMS crew is presented with a DNR.


Checking vital signs is not enough.

rl

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Hello bert_man,


Just a quick explanation: I think it is very cool for everybody who has got some basic training at all, the more the better. So, I am very glad to read you had training.

Sorry if my post was maybe a bit dry, I just wanted to raise awareness to everybody that especially in our sport where really bad injuries can happen we should always perform life preserving measures - even if we doubt the person is alive at all or will make it.

That is, unless there are absolutely clear signs like the ones RhondaLea just brought to us (thanks). Otherwise: No one is dead unless declared dead by a professional - usually a doctor.

And I perfectly realize that most people who have taken some basic training cannot go back regularly, but my gut feeling would be to say, maybe once or twice a year a refresher training would be very helful.


Best, Eduard.

--
Eduard

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NEVER..leave anyone behind

NEVER..give up

NEVER..quit trying

IF YOU IGNORE THE ABOVE RULES IN THE EVENT OF SOMEONES INJURYS OR ACCIDENT you HAVE TO LIVE WITH IT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE

come on think this through what if someone is still alive
NO ONE should be have to die alone.. period

..
59 YEARS,OVERWEIGHT,BALDIND,X-GRUNT
LAST MIL. JUMP VIET-NAM(QUAN-TRI)
www.dzmemories.com

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If a group of jumpers make a pact, they should stick to it, if you are not prepared to do what that pact entails, do not agree to be part of it. I could never do what "mike" may have done, but I would never agree to a pact like that. If we put blame on "Mike" then we should put blame on the whole group that was part of this pact, for we have to assume that if the roles were reversed and "mike" died, similar events might follow.

B.A.S.E. jumpers, this is the perfect time to evaluate your own personal pacts you have and determine if you really would be able to stick to it.
Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

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Pact or not if they left someone injured to die as the video clip in the other thread says.Someone should go to jail.Let me repeat that SOMEONE NEEDS TO GO TO JAIL!



As a skydiver, you should be aware of the usual inaccuracies of media reporting.

There are very few facts right now, and we haven't even reached the stage where someone needs to be arrested, much less sent to jail.

Making a concerted effort to sort all this out is important. A discussion of the ethics of leaving is essential every now and again. But trial, conviction and imposition of sentence prior to knowing exactly what has happened in this particular case helps no one, most especially Scott.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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left someone injured to die as the video clip in the other thread says.Someone should go to jail.Let me repeat that SOMEONE NEEDS TO GO TO JAIL



I COMPLETLEY agree with this statement. I hope and PRAY that that report is like many reports in this sport, and slanted or mis-leading. Until a body is found or "Mike" is found its so hard to decide how to feel.
Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

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They were interviewing one of his friends that spoke of his neck being broken and bones sticking out.That fucker has talked to someone.If this guy Mike can make two calls to the family he can damn sure tell them where to find the body.As someone else said,from a pay phone with a muffled voice.Lets get real people this should have come to an end already and there is NO excuse for it going on.The longer it takes the worst it is going to be and the longer the media is going to be involved.The guy in that news clip knows or he knows who does.


.

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Pact or not if they left someone injured to die as the video clip in the other thread says.Someone should go to jail.Let me repeat that SOMEONE NEEDS TO GO TO JAIL!



As a skydiver, you should be aware of the usual inaccuracies of media reporting.

There are very few facts right now, and we haven't even reached the stage where someone needs to be arrested, much less sent to jail.

Making a concerted effort to sort all this out is important. A discussion of the ethics of leaving is essential every now and again. But trial, conviction and imposition of sentence prior to knowing exactly what has happened in this particular case helps no one, most especially Scott.

rl



I guess you overlooked the word if in my post.There are so many ifs that my head is spinning.If there is a body,If he did die BASE jumping,what IF someone killed him and decided to hang it on the BASE community.As I said before if this guy can call the family twice he can put an end to this and tell them where the body is.Something just does not add up.

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Pact or not if they left someone injured to die as the video clip in the other thread says.Someone should go to jail.Let me repeat that SOMEONE NEEDS TO GO TO JAIL!



The people in the video are family and friends of Scott's girlfriend.

I am uncertain where they got the details they recounted on the broadcast, or if they are accurate in any way.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I'm so very saddened to read all this... [:/]

I have ground crewed on plenty of bandit jumps. I understand that there is a natural instinct for self preservation to flee. However, I have had injured people in my hands, and I don't give a shit what the consequences are I would never leave someone. I am also a former EMT, so my gut instinct is to help people.

I understand that there are pacts in place, but use some common sense please. If a man is down and and you want to save your ass - at least use that persons cell phone to call for help. It will only trace that person (not you), and could potentially save that person vs. leaving someone to die alone. So what if you give away a base location - I would hope that someones life is more important than that. That's just truly fucked up! :(

g

Raddest ho this side of Jersey #1 - rest in peace brother
Beth lost her cherry and I missed it
.... you want access to it, but you don't want to break it.

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I always thought that the real ethics of base jumping was to conduct ourselves responsibly and promote a positve image of our sport to the rest of the world.

How are we supposed to do that if the world sees us as the type of people who leave our friends behind- and who dont assume to do the responsible or humane thing.

Im a base jumper- and i dont consider myself a criminal- as someone else once put it (cant remember who)- 'all im doing is borrowing a little altitude'

We are not criminals- we shouldnt act like criminals

I work- and i value my job as much as the next guy. I have a girl-who i intend to marry, and who i would like to grow old and healthy with. I base jump- and that is my decision. Hopefully i will always make the right decisions.

Personally, i dont make friends just to leave thier bodies out in the cold.


Reiner.

P.s- I'm not directing this at anyone. I just think that if we want to make people understand why we love base and why we jump. We cant give them something that they cant swallow. Most people out there can learn to understand that base jumpers are not actually committing any moral crime- but i dont think that most people can learn to agree with leaving a human beings body smashed on the ground below an antenna or building or wherever. I mean- dont the armed forces always say that they never leave a man behind dead or a live.

my 2c.

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your problem is that you are judging the BASE community on the actions of one individual.


Gee. Guess what the press and public are gonna do. Thank goodness funks is getting everyone ready for it.


hopefully, they might check "The List" and realize this is NOT standard. (ah, wishful thinking...)
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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years ago in my army days we in the rangers had a moto
we NEVER leave a man (friend) behind

bad plan=heart ache for the family

lets be safe up there

..



That's what I am talking about! I started this rollercoaster in the same way and continue to live "The Creed” every second. You know before the Rangers, SEALs, and everyone else coined that motto it was common damn sense!

The absolute worse thing that could ever happen after a death is not having closure to it. The living are the only thing that has a chance to provide it. "The I don't knows" are almost worse than the event itself.

If your own traumatic stress comes from your own near death experience, you've probably been thinking way to highly of yourself. If there is any confusion that you need to see a buddy through please let me know and I will let you know where you stand. Just because one dumbass has a horrible plan to "save" everyone else doesn't mean you have to follow through. Suck it up!

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hopefully, they might check "The List" and realize this is NOT standard. (ah, wishful thinking...)



How many times do people have to get left for it to be too many?
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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First off:
Mike if you reads this,create an fake hotmail or yahoo account and mail the location of the body to Tom A,the polices or Scotts´s family.
Theres no need that people know who you are but pleace give the family rest in their sould by giving them the body of their son.

Next:
I have before said this but now i say it out public.
In case i die(make sure im dead,that nothing can be done),leave me behind,leaving my body and some id to prove who i am.Then contact my family,and the local police.Please make sure to protect your self againt anything(like charges etc etc),this is my will,if you stay back its YOUR choice but im al good if you leave my body behind.Both me and my family has agreed on this.Aslong as theyre contacted by "Allied" and hear it from my freinds that enjoyed my last moment whith me,rather than a police officer.
Personaly im quiete sure that i´ll stay by my freind that has just died but that is MY choice at that point(hope it dosnt happen).

So im pretty much dubbelmoral i guess,i would stay but ask my freinds to leave if they find so better.

If you havnt figured out stuff like the above then you probaly shouldnt jump illigal sites.
We all make our choices and has to live whith them,please make sure that your family knows what arrengment you and your freinds usaly jumps under..


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I'm human, and I was jumping with you for a reason. So don't expect me to keep that pact.


well said as i know you.íll jump whith you again any time;)

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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How many times do people have to get left for it to be too many?


how many times has it happened?

like this? one is too many



We're well over our quota then. :|

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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As I said before if this guy can call the family twice he can put an end to this and tell them where the body is. Something just does not add up.



Quite frankly this is beginning to be my take as well.

Regardless, my deepest condolences to Scott's family and friends. I sincerely hope you can soon have some closure and solace. :(

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

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I think Reiner1 summed it up pretty well. We're not criminals and we shouldn't act like them. I hope this is just a terrible hoax and no one was killed. Either way, this is truly sad.
"I'm not a gynecologist but I will take a look at it"
RB #1295, Smokey Sister #1, HellFish #658, Dirty Sanchez #194, Muff Brothers #3834, POPS #9614, Orfun Foster-Parent?"

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...and when kids start playing grown-up games, their parents will be searching for bodies.



The maturity required to handle BASE is vastly underestimated in our community. We're all a bunch of yahoos when we get that onheading opening and fly safely to our landing, but how many of us are truly capable of handling the most dire of situations as men of honour?

For starters, put a number in your cellphone under the name ICE or BASE. Make sure this is the person you want to have contacted in case of a BASE emergency. For me, this is not my parents or even a direct family member. It is somebody who I respect and trust to establish a quick action plan, and know to be capable of managing communication channels properly.

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