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Anvilbrother

Fatalities, leaving a jumper behind, and the Pact.

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I would rather spend some time in jail than spend the rest of my life haunted by the fact that I left a friend behind.



Thankfully I've never had to make such a choice, as being a survivor rather than the deceased would very likely change my opinion.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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I can see how the associate who left this gentleman behind was probably scared to death. So, what do you do? I doubt the "Aggresive D.A." would understand the "Base Code" or any unwritten law and protocol.

That said i can hardly fault the guy that left with the understanding that he and the jumper that was killed had that agreement in place beforehand. He should have however given the family the X's & Y's to locate his body. That part REALLY bothers me.
-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

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Its a sad story. I fear it's only going to get worse. I feel for the family, This is NOT how its supposed to go.
Go forth now, to the promised lands, and swear much unto each other, with mighty profanity and many personal attacks. T.A.

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I would rather spend some time in jail than spend the rest of my life haunted by the fact that I left a friend behind.



Thankfully I've never had to make such a choice, as being a survivor rather than the deceased would very likely change my opinion.



Well, that's the thing.

Most of the people I know who support The Pact if it's their body being left behind wouldn't leave if it were someone else's body.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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Its a sad story. I fear it's only going to get worse. I feel for the family, This is NOT how its supposed to go.

----------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, not to mention this kind of bullshit draws even more negativity to the sport. I could only imagine the DA holding a press conference denouncing BASE as a sinister club of renegades.

This whole thing is really creeping me out.

I'm really sorry for the family and for the rest of the BASE community for having to be associated with such a disgusting act. :|

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if i die on a jump, just leave my body there and call the authorities to retrieve it. at that point, it's an empty dead shell. and then said living jumpers should call my family and provide sufficient details. if i'm hurt, i expect my fellow jumpers to make any sacrifice required to save my butt.



Ditto, 110% And pretty please, take my gear off!
Memento Audere Semper

903

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Please re-read what 440 wrote.

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and then said living jumpers should call my family and provide sufficient details.



I could not care less if the authorities call it a suicide, actually even better because suicides do not make any news.

About two weeks ago a guy jumped off our local S with no gear. We thought he burned the site. Nothing in the news and newspapers.

Please take my gear with you and do make it look like a suicide!
Memento Audere Semper

903

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if i die on a jump, just leave my body there and call the authorities to retrieve it. at that point, it's an empty dead shell. and then said living jumpers should call my family and provide sufficient details. if i'm hurt, i expect my fellow jumpers to make any sacrifice required to save my butt.



Ditto, 110% And pretty please, take my gear off!



Besides from certain situations where your body may be turned inside out and you are obviously dead, do you really trust your fellow base jumper to check your vital signs and confirm with absolute 100% certainty that you are in fact dead?

Believe it or not, but my bet is that a good majority of base jumpers would have no clue how to distinguish the difference between a fellow base jumper that is barely hanging on and could perhaps be saved by medical attention and one that has died.

But hey, what the fuck does it matter anyways? As long as there is only a dead empty shell left behind, nobody goes to jail and the object doesnt get burned then all is good right?

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Please re-read what 440 wrote.

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and then said living jumpers should call my family and provide sufficient details.



I could not care less if the authorities call it a suicide, actually even better because suicides do not make any news.

About two weeks ago a guy jumped off our local S with no gear. We thought he burned the site. Nothing in the news and newspapers.

Please take my gear with you and do make it look like a suicide!



I agree, clearly this solution makes the best of the circumstances for all involved parties.
Edited to add: perhaps even carry a suicide note with the first aid kit in case the first aid kit isn't useful.
"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

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FYI, when Susan Ottley died in Yosemite, her jumping partner was charged with involuntary manslaughter.



Charged with, but was her partner convicted?



Yes. He refused to give up the other jumpers on the load, and the NPS really stuck it to him as hard as they could.

For the record, in that single incident, I think that Keith showed more character than I'm likely to have in my entire life.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I could not care less if the authorities call it a suicide, actually even better because suicides do not make any news.



Something to consider: some life insurance policies do not pay out if you commit suicide. By the incident being ruled as a suicide, the deceased's family may be left high and dry.

Bryan

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FYI, when Susan Ottley died in Yosemite, her jumping partner was charged with involuntary manslaughter.



Charged with, but was her partner convicted?



Yes. He refused to give up the other jumpers on the load, and the NPS really stuck it to him as hard as they could.

For the record, in that single incident, I think that Keith showed more character than I'm likely to have in my entire life.



You are saying the person was charged with and convicted of involuntary manslaughter?

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FYI, when Susan Ottley died in Yosemite, her jumping partner was charged with involuntary manslaughter.



Charged with, but was her partner convicted?



Yes. He refused to give up the other jumpers on the load, and the NPS really stuck it to him as hard as they could.

For the record, in that single incident, I think that Keith showed more character than I'm likely to have in my entire life.



You are saying the person was charged with and convicted of involuntary manslaughter?



Aerial Delivery, if I recall correctly. It was a large affair, that involved a substantial time in custody, some plea bargaining, some lawyers, and a conviction that has followed him around ever since.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I think that as a jumper one has the responsibility to respect whatever pact was made if you jump with them. Or disagree with it and not jump with them. I'm sure it's not all cut and dried as this but It's your duty to accept or reject the pact.
I hope that everyone gets what they need from this incident. And as much as I hate to see the family suffer, a man's word is his salvation. I would die a very lesser man to not honor my word to a friend who died or lived. I would be torn, But I would have to respect my BASE Bro's pact if I did accept it. Going to jail or burning a site would not matter. Only keeping my word that he trusted me with would be important.
Know the pact. and play or not accordingly.
my 2 cents.
take care,
space

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Part of the risk of this sport, if you choose to do it illegaly,is that you may find yourself facing the police with your dead friend lying on the ground before you. If you don't have what it takes to stand there and face it like a man(or woman)then you shouldn't be doing it in the first fucking place .Jump at the Perrine or some of the other legal object but stay away from the illegal ones if you aren't prepared to face the consequences. Calling days later and not giving enough info to find the body is inexcusable.



May we live long and die out

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FYI, when Susan Ottley died in Yosemite, her jumping partner was charged with involuntary manslaughter.



Charged with, but was her partner convicted?



Yes. He refused to give up the other jumpers on the load, and the NPS really stuck it to him as hard as they could.

For the record, in that single incident, I think that Keith showed more character than I'm likely to have in my entire life.



You are saying the person was charged with and convicted of involuntary manslaughter?



Aerial Delivery, if I recall correctly. It was a large affair, that involved a substantial time in custody, some plea bargaining, some lawyers, and a conviction that has followed him around ever since.



Wow. So are you guys telling me that the threat of being charged with "aeriel delivery" is a major concern and basis for leaving a fellow jumper that has died? Seriously?

The way your post was laid out it appeared as though the person was in fact charged with involuntary manslaughter.

I am still waiting for one valid reason to be posted by the base community that supports and vindicates ones action for leaving a fellow jumper that is either dead, dying, or injured. Sorry, if you think the reasons given out thus far are valid, I just dont seem to think so.

Not trying to be a dick, just trying to understand the thought process and reasoning behind all this.

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Also beware of removing the rig for this reason. If the cops figure out that gear was removed from the decieced it opens a whole new can of worms. Non jumpers wouldn't understand reasoning behind removal of gear, and it may suggest to them some foul play was involved. I would refrain from disturbing the scene as much as possible.

Also how do others feel about this comment by funks

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Believe it or not, but my bet is that a good majority of base jumpers would have no clue how to distinguish the difference between a fellow base jumper that is barely hanging on and could perhaps be saved by medical attention and one that has died.



I get the impression that many of us have gone out and recieved some type of medical training. I have a medical first responder rating. How about some of the rescues in Moab that have been performed by base jumpers. As far as I am concerned some of those were beyond amazing.

Matt Davies


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leaving a fellow jumper that is either dead, dying, or injured.



I've tried to stay out of this discussion up to this point because I'm still a very new jumper, however I just thought that I'd point out (as people have already done) that this discussion does not relate to "dying, or injured". Just dead. I also believe that a majority of BASE jumpers would in fact know how to check a fallen jumper's vital signs. It's really not that difficult.

If I had such a pact, I would definitely find it hard to leave the body in the first place. I, personally, would not be able to bring myself to leave the scene unless I personally verified, with zero doubt in my mind, that my friend was dead. I would also probably want to spend a few moments to reflect and say a prayer or two.

This, of course, only applies to the hypothetical situation that I actually had entered into a pact like this. At the moment, considering all things, I see no reason for me to enter a pact like this as I currently am not in a position that would leave me overly vulnerable if arrested, i.e. outstanding warrants etc. I do believe that I would follow the wishes of the jumper, if that was what he wanted and he made it clear beforehand. Then again, I may panic and just wait there to be arrested either way... you never know these things until it happens.

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I get the impression that many of us have gone out and recieved some type of medical training. I have a medical first responder rating. How about some of the rescues in Moab that have been performed by base jumpers. As far as I am concerned some of those were beyond amazing.



This is the impression that I get as well. I attended an Outdoor Emergency Care (OEC) course with the ski patrol a few years ago, and have CPR and AED certifications (not current, but I still remember).

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in reply to "I am still waiting for one valid reason to be posted by the base community that supports and vindicates ones action for leaving a fellow jumper that is either dead, dying, or injured. "
.......................

Just wondering ....does all this mean that some wreel secret base sites have base jumpers buried nearby? or the odd bit of bone sticking out of the ground?:S

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I also believe that a majority of BASE jumpers would in fact know how to check a fallen jumper's vital signs. It's really not that difficult.



I refer you to www.deadmike.com.

When the ambulance left the WFFC, the lights were off and they were driving slow, because there was no reason to turn the lights on and drive fast. Mike was dead.

He died in August 1997. He made a base jump at Bridge Day in 1998.

He is currently a 43-year old dead guy.

Apparently it's more difficult than you think.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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I am still waiting for one valid reason to be posted by the base community that supports and vindicates ones action for leaving a fellow jumper that is either dead, dying, or injured. Sorry, if you think the reasons given out thus far are valid, I just dont seem to think so.



your problem is that you are judging the BASE community on the actions of one individual. i don't recall reading a single post by a BASE jumper that indicated that he would leave...only those saying that they would want their partners on the load to leave them. little different.

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I've read his story in the past and I had the feeling that somebody would mention it. Those cases are in the extreme, extreme minority, however.

Regardless, if you call an ambulance and stay on the scene, or if you call an ambulance and leave, real medical help would still arrive at the same time, so in the unlikely event that they 'came back to life'... ehhh i dunno....

fuck it... i probably would never leave the scene myself, but if somebody else in some other crew somewhere had this pact, and his buddies left him after he was dead (even if he came back to life later), i won't criticize them for listening to his last request. As long as they notify the correct people, right away, with sufficient information, as has been said before.

I think the current situation is downright embarrassing to the sport (not to mention irresponsible, tragic, and cold), and I see no reason for "mike" to not give more information than "your son is dead". That really pisses me off.

Then again, I don't know the whole story, so I can't entirely judge anybody yet.

This whole issue is a really grey area. I'm not even entirely sure of my own opinion, so I think i'll just step back and let other people post now...

If any of Scott's family or friends end up reading this thread, you have my deepest condolences. I really pray that this will get worked out as soon as possible so that you can find closure.

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