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Anvilbrother

Fatalities, leaving a jumper behind, and the Pact.

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It may seem that way, but from the sound of the post from a family member he wanted the notifications to go that way. He went through the trouble of writing a letter that he kept on himself. He and his jump buddies had a game plan. Although it is a bad way to find out a loved one has died, and it may or may not be able to keep the jumpers anonymous it was the plan.

edit for thread title ~TA

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

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it was the plan.



Leaving the body of a friend exposed to the elements is not a plan. Leaving a mother to wonder what has happened to her son is not a plan.

I've posted a link to the other thread in the Bonfire. Maybe someone knows who "Mike" is, and can obtain from him the information needed to recover Scott's body and give his mother a little peace.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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years ago in my army days we in the rangers had a moto
we NEVER leave a man (friend) behind

bad plan=heart ache for the family

lets be safe up there

..
59 YEARS,OVERWEIGHT,BALDIND,X-GRUNT
LAST MIL. JUMP VIET-NAM(QUAN-TRI)
www.dzmemories.com

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Whether people think it’s a good idea or not some people have a pact to leave the killed jumper behind and make an anonymous phone call. The problem here is that the anonymous phone call wasn’t very informative. I think that is the BIG problem people are having with this one.

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I did not start this thread TA split it off from the other one. I was just commenting that this was the plan that they had, and it was followed out like it appears they wanted it to.

I think a better way would be to drop the person off at a emergency room. How do they know there was nothing that could have been done for him? At least the body would have accountability, it dose solve some of the legal consequences such as abandonment. Most importantly the family has the fact that he was brought to emergency care, all that could be done was done instead of lying under an object somewhere never knowing what could have been. You could say when you drop the jumper off at the ER that he called you on a cell phone, and told you where he was and that he was going to base jump and that if you did not hear from him later to come looking. A hour passed, and you did not hear from your friend, and you found him and brought him there. I am not sure in this case it is better to tell a lie like that or the truth since it will probbaly get pretty complicated with the police and all. Some people might be able to go that route tho..

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

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Whether people think it’s a good idea or not some people have a pact to leave the killed jumper behind and make an anonymous phone call.



I understand that some people may have made a pact but in my eyes I think it's inhumane. On another site, I read one of the family members post stating something along the lines of "This is supposely how it's done when BASE jumping because it's illegal" I'm sure his family has *great feelings* (sarcasm) towards the ethics/morals of the base jumping community in general at this time..... I don't care what legality issues I may face..if one of my crew goes in...I'm not leaving their body, even if they carry a note saying *LEAVE ME HERE FOR THE ANIMALS!* I don't care what I may get charged with...they are my friends and they are my family. That includes others I may jump with as well...if I jump with someone..the first thing I must feel is respect and trust...and in that I am taking the belief that if I were to go in they are not going to leave my body and call my family a day or two after the fact to just tell them I'm dead with no details. This entire situation just turns my stomach.

Have a heart.

Amanda

*Edited to add that this was not directed towards anyone. I was just quoting part of Russel's post.

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I totally agree with you on this one. I wouldn't leave anyone behind. I was just stating that some people plan it that way and this seems to be one of them. Like I said before, the anonymous caller could have at least said where it happened! The plan just wasn't executed very well.

Edited for spelling.

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I don't base (yet...) but this is obviously something that is, or certainly should be, going round in the skull of anyone considering taking up this odd activity.

A fatailty is IT, end-ex, game over, whatever. No dicking around with pacts, secrecy or cloak and dagger ops. There are a million and one ways to release the info, get your thumb outa your arse and tell someone.

---------------------------------------
Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club
www.skydivebristoluni.com

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I did not start this thread TA split it off from the other one.



I know.

My post was in that thread and moved along with yours.

My position is the same no matter where it's posted.

I don't really give a flying fuck about The Pact. When one of your friends dies, you don't leave him behind.

But even if I believed differently, this situation is, on its face, unforgiveable.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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I was just stating that some people plan it that way and this seems to be one of them. Like I said before, the anonymous caller could have at least said where it happened so! The plan just wasn't executed very well.


Things make people wonder.. actualy i always tell people to leave me behind in case i die.. however i do expect them to call the police or what ever and tell were to locate my body..

I do agree that if there were a plan it wasnt either not well planed or well executed..

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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While the idea of leaving a fallen jumper at the object doesn't seem to be very accepted by the BASE community, from my point of view it's reasonable. If that was the jumpers' plan, and they followed that plan, there's nothing inappropriate or illegitimate in it. If I and another jumper had agreed ahead of time that the best thing to do in case of a fatality is to leave the body behind, I would do that. The obvious reasons this may be desirable:
1) It helps protect other jumpers on the load from legal and other repercussions.
2) It may help protect the object from being lost to the BASE community (unlikely, but possible).
If I were to go in on a jump, I would have no problem with other jumpers leaving my body at the site. Honestly, I would hope that they do everything possible to protect themselves from possible repercussions. There's no sense in my friends and fellow jumpers facing jail time, lost employment, etc. because of a jump gone terribly wrong.
However, there is no excuse whatsoever for not informing the family and/or authorities where to find the remains. This can easily be done anonymously from a public telephone, or in a dozen other ways. Detailed instructions should be passed on to aid the family in recovering their loved one. There is no sane reason not to do this. It is the compassionate thing to do. It is the human thing to do, offering the family a sense of closure.
Furthermore, failing to notify "someone" where to find the remains does a huge disservice to the BASE community. While any fatality hurts the sport, the complications of a fatality and a missing person / missing remains do much more damage than the fatality itself. If jumpers do agree that, in case of a fatality, the remains are left at the site, they must understand that under no circumstances does that release them from a responsibility to inform the family and/or authorities about the location of the jumper. This is mainly to give the family closure in terrible times, and also helps to minimize collateral damage to the sport.

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I don't BASE at this point, but know people that do. I have heard that in some scenarios in Urban BASE, if you don't make the rendevous, you get left behind. I have come to understand this as part of the rules of the game. I would like to hear what more people have to say about making this type of plan. Is it accepatble to make a plan to leave people behind?
...FUN FOR ALL!

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I must admit - I see both sides of the coin as well. Sure its not the best thing for the deceased's family and all, but hey, if that's what the guy decided, thats HIS wishes. The world is a messed up ball of wonder, this is just another strand unravling itself. To each his own no matter.

Edited to add: in the 4 cases where I've been GCing where bad injuries have occured, I've stuck with the jumper - twice risking arrest. It is not my belief to leave anyone behind nor would I ever.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

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1) It helps protect other jumpers on the load from legal and other repercussions.
2) It may help protect the object from being lost to the BASE community (unlikely, but possible).



Please tell me you are fucking kidding about both of these points???? Legal and other repercussions? If you cant take the fucking punishment dont commit the fucking crime!! loss of an object??? Yep, that is worth a life:S:S:S:S

Why do base jumpers act as though the act of base jumping is such a heinous crime? You are not robbing a bank, raping a woman, or committing some other crime that could perhaps result in a lengthy prison term. You are jumping off something, that is it. Perhaps the thought of the entire law enforcement community having a hard on for you makes it more exciting, but come on guys, do you really think that is the case?

Why the secrecy? Why the drama? Sure, you need to keep your sacred "objects" secret and perhaps you need to live your life like an outlaw (:S) but must it be done at the expense of a life? To me that makes base jumping pretty fucking uncool.

Do sport bike riders have a pact like this? Are they committing illegal activities on back roads that they may prefer to keep quiet? Sure. Would it be acceptable for a sport bike rider to leave the scene if a buddy wrapped himself around a tree? Hell no.

Why would anyone ever think it is acceptable to leave a dead, dying or severely hurt person behind? That is the most ridiculous load of bullshit I have ever heard.


edited to add: Perhaps the brainiacs with these types of pacts need to realize that they are putting themselves in even more jeopardy in a legal sense by leaving the scene. Bet ya never thought about that now did ya:S

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what is worse? Legal punishment or a human in the desert rotting, family without closure? I would rather go through a couple thousand dollars then live with the fact that I left a human in the wilderness to get eaten by rodents and birds and not have a final resting place.

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if i die on a jump, just leave my body there and call the authorities to retrieve it. at that point, it's an empty dead shell. and then said living jumpers should call my family and provide sufficient details. if i'm hurt, i expect my fellow jumpers to make any sacrifice required to save my butt.

FYI, when Susan Ottley died in Yosemite, her jumping partner was charged with involuntary manslaughter.

Abandoning this guys body for so long without accurately informing the family borders on evil.
Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

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Why would anyone ever think it is acceptable to leave a dead, dying or severely hurt person behind?



I agree with most of what you said. I just wanted to point out the fact that I think these pacts are only if the person is already dead, not if they are injured or dying.

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I see both sides, if this is something that the jumper agreed then that was his choice. I do think the family deserves closure and this is maybe a wake up call for B.A.S.E to re-evaluate thier pacts. I personally would not make a pact to leave someone in the case of a fatality, and I will make that known once I am able to take up this sport. I would rather be charged , tried, and jailed then leave.
Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

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I understand your point of view, and realize that different people will act differently in the case of a fatality. It is my personal opinion that, in the case when someone is definitely, without a doubt, dead, there is nothing wrong in leaving their remains behind as long as you make sure they will be found in a reasonable period of time. Notice I am not advocating leaving an injured jumper behind.

The more I think about your response, the more I realize such a situation is very unlikely. In most cases the fallen jumper would be reached very soon after the incident. In such situations, resuscitation or other immediate treatments might help. In such situations there is no excuse for leaving a jumper - you call 911 and accept the results.

However, I disagree with your argument that the repercussions will always be small. Aside from the obvious trespassing and potentially lost job, repercussions could further include criminal negligence, manslaughter, or even second / third degree murder. Imagine the case of an antenna worker providing lift access to a few BASE jumpers. In this case even a non-jumper could face severe repercussions from a fatality. What about if a jumper goes in while using my gear? What about if a jumper goes in intoxicated using my gear?

I understand your argument that "if you do the crime you should be prepared to do the time". However, if I were to go in and it were absolutely 100% clear that I were dead, I would want my fellow jumpers to immediately do everything they could to protect themselves. Like I said earlier, there's no sense in their lives being ruined as collateral damage. And it makes no difference to me whether my body is recovered immediately or 3 hours later after an anonymous phone call.

Well, that's my rationale for what I stated earlier. Even if you disagree, I hope you can respect my opinion.

Disclaimer: I have very little experience in BASE, so take my comments accordingly.

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1) It helps protect other jumpers on the load from legal and other repercussions.



in some old discusion (here or on blinc) i read that the most experienced guy or (if the experienced guy had problems before) the guy with the less problems will stay with the buddie and wait the authorities
i think that`s the way to deal with that situation
and if u think the idea to leave a friend there is acceptable i`m SPEACHLESS

we are HUMANS not animals... think about it

"Animals don't have a choice.
If they're not happy with their place in the world... too bad.
They have to live the life they've been given.
Humans, on the other hand, don't have to.
We have a choice."


-------------------------
"jump, have fun, pull"

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it was the plan.



Leaving the body of a friend exposed to the elements is not a plan. Leaving a mother to wonder what has happened to her son is not a plan.

I've posted a link to the other thread in the Bonfire. Maybe someone knows who "Mike" is, and can obtain from him the information needed to recover Scott's body and give his mother a little peace.

rl



Seconded. What a louzy plan. Leaving the scene is one thing. Not properly informing the family is COLD and pointless.

This thing bothers me a lot and I don't even know the guy. I usually don't give a toss...but this bothers me. Imagine being the family.

My sincerest condolences! :(

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FYI, when Susan Ottley died in Yosemite, her jumping partner was charged with involuntary manslaughter.



Charged with, but was her partner convicted?

Charge me with whatever you need in order to please yourself, but then let the jury decide. Honestly, I think it would be VERY difficult to convict someone of involuntary manslaughter in a base jumping incident. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

I won't leave someone. That's just the way I feel about it....


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Well, that's my rationale for what I stated earlier. Even if you disagree, I hope you can respect my opinion.



I personally may not respect your opinion....but I do respect your right to have them.

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Why the secrecy? Why the drama? Sure, you need to keep your sacred "objects" secret and perhaps you need to live your life like an outlaw (:S) but must it be done at the expense of a life?



Who said anything about "at the expense of a life"? I might have missed something, but I thought the discussion involved leaving remains behind, not leaving a busted up jumper to die of his injuries.

I agree that the "Mike" person in this particular incident should have at least identified the deceased's location, but I wouldn't want my friends to go to jail just because I somehow got myself dead.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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I agree that the "Mike" person in this particular incident should have at least identified the deceased's location, but I wouldn't want my friends to go to jail just because I somehow got myself dead.



I would rather spend some time in jail than spend the rest of my life haunted by the fact that I left a friend behind.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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i can see where and agressive da may persue manslaughter charges against other jumpers, but how many people have been convicted under these or similar circumstances? i would think the likelyhood of successful prosicution would be would be greater if an autopsy revieled that an immediate emergency response may have saved a life. as far as trouble at work, that is a risk you will have to accept. one of the primary reasons that i've declined offers to base jump in the past is because even a trespassing charge could cause me problems at work. for this reason i cannot buy the possible loss of a job as a valid excuse. i also cannot accept the possibility of blowing a secret base sight because the site will be blown anyway when the body is found. is this pact really necessary?


"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

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