Stowing a 48-inch pilotchute

[peterkolorado 0]

Should you go stowed for 300' cliff gainers? Adam Colorado and Brian Ohio both think so...

Peter Kolorado

[badenhop 0]

Hello,
Busting a move off a low freefall object is an option.
I prefer to go stowed, and sometimes with the 48".
I have rigs equipped for those smaller jobs needing bigger pouches.
For flips off, say a 260' guyed antenna, or other similar small stuff.
Maybe you aren't prone to such foolish behaviour.

Either way, any way, always, for me,
there's only one way to fold and stow a pilot chute.
I always use the same method, including all skydiving.
I don't do the mushrooms.
I do it my way.

God bless you.

Avery

Edited to add: No vote for me in the poll.
There is no "Sure, no problem" spot.

==================================

I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton

http://www.AveryBadenhop.com

[Faber 0]

how do you fold your pc then?

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[RPetrie 0]

Here is my question for the people who have maybe done something like this before....because I honestly have not.
I have seen situations like this before, but like I said have not done anything like it myself.
What if you are going stowed from around 200 feet. I am sure there is going to be a million people reply saying you shouldn't and I do not disagree, but if you do, what would you do?
Would you get your closing loops (if using a pin rig) ridicuously loose and stow a 48 or 42. Would you not loosten your loops at all? And if you didnt what pilot shoot would you decide to go with? The situation I saw was with someone hanging from a tyrollean (obviously stowed) at MAYBE a few feet over 200. The jump was uneventful and the person had a pretty short canopy ride. I believe this person used a 46 or 48 but don't hold me to it. But to get back to the original question.
If a person decides to go stowed from an altitude that low would you accept the possibility of a hesitation from a bigger pc just for the fact that it is bigger, or would you go with less drag with say a 42 while trying to avoid the hesitation.
Have fun be safe.
bsbd.

[KMonster 0]

In regard to the closing loops, I would (theoretically because I think I would opt not to jump if it was a mandatory stow from 200') use spectra.

[ZegeunerLeben 0]

>>So Johnny Utah and Ray Losli (the most experienced jumpers on this thread) are speaking out and saying basically the same thing as each other, that they each have done hundreds of stowed jumps with a 46 or 48 without hesitation problems
(Johnny is saying that with using the super mushroom), and you flame Johnny saying that 10,000+ jumps would be needed for the data to be valid and then after flaming Utah more you praise Ray saying his data is good.

>>Pretty flimsy flip-flopping there Tree.
Seems like you have a Jealously issue with Johnny Utah. And that was wrong that Utah got banned along with Tree for 24 hours, Tree was flaming him. Seems like what Johnny has been saying all along is true.

>>I am also a big fan of the Super Mushroom. Once you understand how it works, it's easy to see how it's superior to any type of s-folding of the PC.
Brilliant concept!

>>I want to thank Johnny Utah for standing up and sticking his neck out, taking the flames, and posting what he knows in an effort to keep newer jumpers safer. It must be frustrating when you try to pass on your experience you get attacked by others for personal reasons or just to stir up trouble. Johnny Utah obviously has a lot of passion for the sport and to teach new jumpers and help them be safe.

>>Keep the solid advice coming Utah, your efforts are appreciated. Thank you as well Ray, some of us ARE listening guys.

[DexterBase 0]

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I have seen good video of a jumper experiencing a noticeable hesitation with a hand held super mushroom from under 300'. The jumper is a regular poster here, so perhaps he will chime in with details of his experience.

I believe I'm the jumper you're talking about. (Maybe not)

I used a super mushroom that I packed basically at the exit point. I used a solid surface to pack the PC and the technique was no different than what I've been using for the last two years.

My jump was a go-n-throw from 240'. I exited with a head-high attitude so that I wouldn't swing under canopy on opening, and I would be able to react quickly to any offheading. (This isn't a great place to have a 90 in either direction)

As my feet left the exit point, I threw the pilot chute to bridle stretch with a motion similar to throwing a dart at an upward and forward angle. (Just like I have done on every other hand-held go-n-throw.)

The pilot chute reached bridle stretch as my body broke the plane of the exit point. The pilot chute was fully extended, but towed for a moment before inflating and completing the deployment sequence.

I ended up with just over 7 seconds under canopy, while the average for the rest of the load was about 12 seconds. I know one other jumper on the load was flying almost identical equipment (same gear, different canopy size but similar wingloading) and my canopy ride was about half as long as his.

So, it wasn't scary low, but it was noticable both from the ground, and my perspective was interesting. I wasn't in danger of impacting, but it certainly cost me altitude.

But, that is the only hesitation I've experienced in about two years with the super mushroom.

Given the PC packing techniques I have to choose from, I would still use the super mushroom for all of my stowed jumps. For hand-held jumps, I'm using it for now, but I'm also tring other methods to see which I really believe yields the most consistant results..

I will jump a 46" PC stowed with the super mushroom and not worry about it. Stowed with a 46, I pack the PC at the exit point, or as close to jump time as possible.

I don't even own a 48. With an open landing area, I'd use a 46 (Very brand specific) all the way down to ~200' and any lower than that I'm going PCA or SL. It's possible I'd just SL from 200' too, but then other factors come into play.

All of my pilot chutes are built by Asylum designs. I only jump Asylum pilot chutes.


Edit: Oh yea, what do I think caused this? Nothing caused it. If anything, me jumping off the bridge caused it. I did, after all, jump off a perfectly good bridge and the only plan I had to avoid being killed...

get this...

was to throw a little parachute out into the air so it could pull out a bigger parachute and hopefully keep me out of the dirt.

Hesitations happen. Period.

[Treejumps 0]

I think there is a difference in what was said, and how it was said, and that is my opinion. Ray started out with specific stats, and isn't trying to convince anyone of anything in particular. He also doens't advertise is tip and techniques as the hot setup. My concern was and is that many new(er) jumpers read stuff on line and take it as the gospel, and then (mis) communicate it to another, who tells another. Information can be fatal if mis-interpreted, and I can see that easily happening on here. (such and said that he read that you would be fine doing X) In a nut shell, what works, what could work, what should work, and what you teach new jumpers are not the same things because the intracacies of each rely heavily on the jumper's skill, knowledge, and experience. That is all I was trying say.

I had no intention to aggrevate Utah. I did and do have a problem with someone saying such and such might be alive if only they had used "my" PC packing method when for all we know, he may in fact had. Its awfully suggestive to make a statement like that and could give impressionable new jumpers the idea that there are absolute truths to things like PC pack jobs, when in fact, as shown by the many ideas discussed above, there are not.

[JohnnyUtah 0]

Quote

>>I want to thank Johnny Utah for standing up and sticking his neck out, taking the flames, and posting what he knows in an effort to keep newer jumpers safer. It must be frustrating when you try to pass on your experience you get attacked by others for personal reasons or just to stir up trouble.

Youre welcome.
If you and other jumpers (experienced and new) benefit from it, then its all worth it.

Cheers

Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:[email protected]

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

So Johnny Utah and Ray Losli (the most experienced jumpers on this thread) are speaking out and saying basically the same thing as each other, that they each have done hundreds of stowed jumps with a 46 or 48 without hesitation problems

I haven't known you to intentionally mis-represent people's experience levels or dismiss the opinions of very experienced jumpers, so I'm going to assume that you just don't know the people posting here.

You may have missed the posts by Kleggo:

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...it was so obviously a bad idea because of pouch / pilot chute size incompatability and why the hell would you want to go stowed if you needed a 48" pc anyway option?

and;

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...i would strongly recommend that you do not use a 48"pc in a pouch.

and Outrager:

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Large PC at low airspeed will hesitate every now and then when stowed...

These are two very experienced jumpers posting opinions opposite to your own. Without getting into a "my Dad's bigger than your Dad" contest, I'd just like to question your source for stating that neither of these jumpers might be one of "the most experience jumpers on this thread."

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JohnnyUtah 0]

Chad,
Thanks for posting the feed back.
I use a couple different methods when going hand held.
The Super Mushroom has really been mainly a stowed method for me, but then again, I feel comfortable going stowed on most jumps, except super low stuff like 200 or less, That was more up Dwains alley.

Maybe if I get some time later I will tell ya about my handheld methods more or maybe I'll just PM ya.

Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:[email protected]

[980 0]

pretty sure you are referring to my jump at the Turkey Boogie in 2005

I had written a long post about my setup and why I went with a 46 stowed on a 210-220 ft freefall where stowed was pretty much the only freefall option, but then I figured the following is the most important thing that would have come from that post:

I will not do a stowed freefall that low over hard ground again.

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

If a person decides to go stowed from an altitude that low would you accept the possibility of a hesitation from a bigger pc just for the fact that it is bigger, or would you go with less drag with say a 42 while trying to avoid the hesitation.

In my opinion, consistency of inflation is more important than drag force. More drag may get you to line stretch sooner in 95% of cases, but if the cost is hesitation 5% of the time, the hesitation is going to be the real killer.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[base570 1]

Quote

>>So Johnny Utah and Ray Losli (the most experienced jumpers on this thread) are speaking out and saying basically the same thing as each other, that they each have done hundreds of stowed jumps with a 46 or 48 without hesitation problems
(Johnny is saying that with using the super mushroom), and you flame Johnny saying that 10,000+ jumps would be needed for the data to be valid and then after flaming Utah more you praise Ray saying his data is good.

>>Pretty flimsy flip-flopping there Tree.
Seems like you have a Jealously issue with Johnny Utah. And that was wrong that Utah got banned along with Tree for 24 hours, Tree was flaming him. Seems like what Johnny has been saying all along is true.

>>I am also a big fan of the Super Mushroom. Once you understand how it works, it's easy to see how it's superior to any type of s-folding of the PC.
Brilliant concept!

>>I want to thank Johnny Utah for standing up and sticking his neck out, taking the flames, and posting what he knows in an effort to keep newer jumpers safer. It must be frustrating when you try to pass on your experience you get attacked by others for personal reasons or just to stir up trouble. Johnny Utah obviously has a lot of passion for the sport and to teach new jumpers and help them be safe.

>>Keep the solid advice coming Utah, your efforts are appreciated. Thank you as well Ray, some of us ARE listening guys.

Jeez dude!!!
How far up Johnny Utah's ass are you going to go?? It looks like you have fallen for Johnny and his nice resume he's got up. I know more than 20 people who have similar or better resume's, if you want to call it that, they just aren't as vocal about it. Does this make them any less credible? I don't think so....Just because someone makes themselves more visible doesn't always make them right.
johnny and Ray are both well seasoned jumpers with tons of knowledge but there are many more with just as valuable information, you shouldn't discount their input, especially only having 17 BASE jumps yourself. I think that in the end as we are towing a pc in, we will find out that SHIT HAPPENS. PC's will hesitate for no apparent reason(stowed and handheld) and we don't currently have the technology, capacity or tens of thousands of test jumps in controlled conditions to figure out why. So what should we do? Make the jumps as safe as we personally feel is adequate, be it stowed or handheld, regular or super dooper mushroom. Oh, and keep looking for an answer even though there may be none.

Just out of curiosity, did you take a Johnny U. FJC?

Jason

[Faber 0]

relooking at that vid(becourse its a superstar shooting it)
I dont think your PC hesitated for that long,but i do think the way you packed/folded it has some of the guilt.. If you had folded it like the rest of us on the load i dont think it would have been any hesi..

besides if you take a delay(what you could from there) i dont think you would have had a hessi by the way you packed..

Just my poor oppinion

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[DexterBase 0]

I just watched that video about 50 times before posting, and compared still shots of all three deplotments.

Did you change any of the settings on your stills camera between jumps?

I have pretty good photo evidence that the hesitation was significant. Of course, that's based on my analysis skills. Someone elses opinion may be different.

[Faber 0]

It depends on how much you mean by significant?

Mate i know you had a hesi i just think i were the cool guy keep videoing ang taking stills of it

Anyway i still say it were as the way you folded your pc but thats just me

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[sonicboy 0]

Hi there,
Very interesting thread, thanks to all for sharing!

Johnny, read on the 'super mushroom' webpage :"I recommend only using pilot chutes WITHOUT a handle for the Super Mushroom. I only use handles for smaller PCs intended for longer delays in which case I should not need the Super Mushroom anyway"

so if i get it right, the super mushroom would only be used on a 'big' pc without handle ? ... that would mean you use super mushroom on what ? 42 - 48 ? (admitting you go stowed with 46 & 48 of course)

Thanks for the info, havent got much experience in-between sizes jumps.
well, actually, not much experience at all

[JohnnyUtah 0]

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Johnny, read on the 'super mushroom' webpage :"I recommend only using pilot chutes WITHOUT a handle for the Super Mushroom. I only use handles for smaller PCs intended for longer delays in which case I should not need the Super Mushroom anyway"

For higher altitude and longer delay jumps, I usually just use the regular mushroom. I think I went into a bit more detail about that in a thread a while back. Theres a link to it in one of the previous post I made in this thread. I dont use the Super Mushroom on terminal jumps.

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so if i get it right, the super mushroom would only be used on a 'big' pc without handle ? ... that would mean you use super mushroom on what ? 42 - 48 ? (admitting you go stowed with 46 & 48 of course)

I dont decide to use it based just on pilot chute size. Its an altitude thing for me. If its under 400 feet and Im going stowed, I will be using the Super Mushroom. Between 400-500 feet I will sometimes use the Super Mushroom. If Im planning on humming it low on something below 500 feet (maybe 600), then I will usually use the Super Mushroom. Otherwise I will be using a REGULAR mushroom style whereby the mesh is s-folded. I think I say pretty much the same thing in that old thread.

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Thanks for the info, havent got much experience in-between sizes jumps. well, actually, not much experience at all

Youre welcome bro. As always, these are just my ways of doing things, take it for what its worth to you. Hope it helps.

Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:[email protected]

[yuri_base 1]

Johnny, do you recommend reducing the strength of the throw when using super mushroom? Can a too vigorous throw combined with fast inflation of super mushroom anchor the PC on the side, leading to offheading?

Thanks
Yuri

Android+Wear/iOS/Windows apps:
L/D Vario, Smart Altimeter, Rockdrop Pro, Wingsuit FAP
iOS only: L/D Magic
Windows only: WS Studio

[JohnnyUtah 0]

Quote

Johnny, do you recommend reducing the strength of the throw when using super mushroom? Can a too vigorous throw combined with fast inflation of super mushroom anchor the PC on the side, leading to offheading?

Thanks
Yuri

When going stowed (PC packed either way), I do a clean, solid throw, straight to the side (to bridle stretch).

If youre too vigorous about it, then Im picturing something like a wild throw. That can put more noise in your packtray and can cause the pilot chute to whip around a little bit, and both of those things could be the sole reason you get an off heading.

Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:[email protected]