Stowing a 48-inch pilotchute

[JaapSuter 0]

This post was inspired by Yuri's post about his cliffstrike. Yuri did a great job staying alive and in no way should this post be taken as an insult to his skills. The fact he lived through a cliffstrike makes him ten times the BASE jumper that I am.

Anyway, I'm wondering how many people actually know that stowing a 48 inch pilotchute is not recommended. It increases the chance of a hard pull compared to smaller pilotchutes, it increases the chances of a pilotchute hesitation, and strictly speaking if the jump requires a 48 inch pilotchute it's a short delay and you might as well go handheld anyway.

If you really want to go stowed, use a smaller pilotchute. If the 48 is all you have, go handheld instead. I don't go stowed unless I jump a 42. 46 and above means handheld.

Anyway, this post is not about discussing this particular matter. It's actually to point out an observation I had which is that I never learned this fact during my FJCs. I've taken two different FJCs, and I think it's a fair assumption that this kind of detailed information is not always what instructors have time for in three days.

As such, it brought out the need for mentors, jumping with other experienced jumpers, or at least being in regular contact with them to discuss your jump plan.

Mmmm, I wonder if this contradicts some opinions I expressed a few days back about the need for mentors. Oh well, at the very least I guess people should hang out with experienced jumpers.

Going at it alone is great, but there's a ton of little facts -like this one about large pilotchutes- that you won't pick up unless you start hanging out with experienced jumpers.

Anyway, just curious what the poll will say. Maybe I'm wrong and everybody learned this during their FJC.

Cheers,

Jaap

[TomAiello 25]

I learned this lesson when I was just shy of 100 BASE jumps. I experienced a PC hesitation with a 46" stowed PC from a cliff that was about 300'. It was fairly exciting.

Afterward, I had the good fortune to talk with one of America's most knowledgeable BASE experts (Todd Shoebotham from Apex--thanks Todd!) about my experience, and learned a lot.

Hmmm. Maybe I'll add a Stowed/Handheld recommendation line to my delay-altitude chart, and a note about stowed hesitations.

Note (this one may evoke some spirited discussion) that I am of the opinion that folding a mushroom (of any type) with a big PC and hand holding it for a short delay creates virtually identical hesitation issues as stowing the mushroom. For this reason I think the "handheld mushroom" that I see many jumpers using is a bad idea.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JaapSuter 0]

To add to this post; getting some BASE jumpers in your instant messenger (MSN or ICQ) list, or even better; some phonenumbers, is a great idea!

When I was just started out I would often bug multiple experienced people and be like: "Hey, I'm about to jump this 270 footer, but I only have a 42 inch pilotchute lying around. Do you think that's okay?" Or: "I'm thinking about doing a 310 foot building handheld, would you use a 46 or a 42?"

I'd always crosscheck the information with what other people say, what the books say, and what my common sense is telling me. You get a ton of useful information this way. Information that is not always available on these forums, on the many published delay charts, or in other resources.

Thanks Tom, Faber, Seth, Tim, Michael and Chad.

I'm by no means an experienced jumper; but if you do happen to go out for a jump one of these days, don't hesitate to bug me. I always love hearing about other people's plans and maybe we'll both learn something from each other. My contact information is in my profile.

[JaapSuter 0]

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Note that I am of the opinion that folding a mushroom (of any type) with a big PC and hand holding it for a short delay creates virtually identical hesitation issues as stowing the mushroom.

Mmm, interesting. Do you have any theories on why this might happen? And what is your recommend strategy? I s-fold the bridle in my hand and continue along with the pilotchute (stretching the mesh and center-line first), making sure I plan my folds such that the top ends upward. I'm no longer sure which FJC taught me that, but I'm curious what your recommended handheld technique is.

[TomAiello 25]

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Do you have any theories on why this might happen? And what is your recommend strategy?

Several. Unfortunately I'm about to go to bed, so I'll try to expound on them tomorrow.

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I s-fold the bridle in my hand and continue along with the pilotchute (stretching the mesh and center-line first), making sure I plan my folds such that the top ends upward. I'm no longer sure which FJC taught me that, but I'm curious what your recommended handheld technique is.

That's the same technique I teach. I'm not sure what Apex teaches, although I think it might be the 'S fold the mesh and leave the ZP out over the top of your hand' technique, which I also think is superior to a mushroom, although I have some concerns about it for deep handheld delays.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Maxim 0]

The way i was taught. is to run my hand up my bridle over my mesh and up till i hit where the mesh joins to the F111 or ZP. trapping the air being able to fill into the ZP. from then on i work backwards Sfolding the mesh then the bridle in my hand till i get the right lenth.. making sure the bridle comes out the top on my hand between the thumb and index finger. the ZP material mushrooms over my hand.

for low delays i have been told to not trap the ZP as much so the pilot chute starts filling up with air earlier and for deeper delays trap it completely so it cant fill with air till you pitch.

How does this way sound to you tom?

Life is Great. Even Greater what we do with it.

[maretus 0]

This is actually pretty good topic and I'd like to hear more opinions about stowing big (46/48) PC's. I have been doing these 2 A's where I've been thinking about pros and cons of this topics. I've been doing them so far with 46", two times stowed and all others (like 13 jumps or so) hand held. The case on these A's is that they are about 95m high (about 280-300ft) but they both have some 10-15m high pine trees just underneath so you really have only ~80m of alti (~240ft) to clear the trees and make it to the landing area. However, these A's have pretty sketchy exit points and it would be nice to be able to use both hands while climbing to the exit and that feels a bit tricky when having 46" PC in your hand. That's why I have been thinking about going stowed. You really cannot fold your PC to your hand on the exit so you pretty much have to exit with the configuration you have once starting to climb there.

So what would be your choice on an A like this on a 1-1,5s delay, go stowed with 46, take 42 stowed on a 240ft (280 to impact) A or use 46/48 hand held and accept the sketchy climb to the exit ? I jump troll 265 on gargoyle container and load it around 0.6.

http://www.ufufreefly.com

[JohnnyUtah 0]

Super Mushroom

Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:[email protected]

[JohnnyUtah 0]

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I'd like to hear more opinions about stowing big (46/48) PC's. I have been doing these 2 A's where I've been thinking about pros and cons of this topics. I've been doing them so far with 46", two times stowed and all others (like 13 jumps or so) hand held. The case on these A's is that they are about 95m high (about 280-300ft) but they both have some 10-15m high pine trees just underneath so you really have only ~80m of alti (~240ft) to clear the trees and make it to the landing area. However, these A's have pretty sketchy exit points and it would be nice to be able to use both hands while climbing to the exit and that feels a bit tricky when having 46" PC in your hand. That's why I have been thinking about going stowed. You really cannot fold your PC to your hand on the exit so you pretty much have to exit with the configuration you have once starting to climb there.

So what would be your choice on an A like this on a 1-1,5s delay, go stowed with 46, take 42 stowed on a 240ft (280 to impact) A or use 46/48 hand held and accept the sketchy climb to the exit ? I jump troll 265 on gargoyle container and load it around 0.6.

My choice for the situation you described:
Stowed
46 or 48 PC
Super Mushroom

What I would not want to use for the situation you described:
Handheld - because of the sketchy exit point
42 or smaller PC
regular mushroom or any other style whereby the PC fabric is flapping around your hand as you exit.

To all:
I have made hundreds and hundreds of BASE jumps using the Super Mushroom PC packing technique stowed (including 42, 44, 46, and 48 size PCs - hundreds of those jumps have been with 46 and 48 PCs). I have NEVER had a pilot chute hesitation using the Super Mushroom. On some jumps while using the REGULAR mushroom, I have experienced PC hesitations - especially stowed but also handheld.

The danger of the other method that some people use (whereby they leave the zp fabric loose on top of their grip) is that the fabric can snag/wrap around your arm or hand or finger. Ive seen it happen many times both on video and with my own eyes. Every time the jumper went into panic mode shaking it off their hand - they probably thought they were going to die...and they would have if they had not gotten it off. Also with this method you cannot make as good of a throw to keep the PC away from your burble.

The larger the PC, the tighter it will fit in the BOC. Realized that, know that, check how hard the pull will be before you get in the car to go. The way you pack it (the shape) also affects how easily it will come out of the BOC. In other words packing it in a cylinder shape with nearly equal bulk throughout will extract smoother than packing it with the deep end having more bulk than the cap end. Also, you want to have a nug under the cap to serve as a handle. This way you will get a good solid grip quicker and wont lose your grip when you go to pull out the PC.

Hope this helps!

Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:[email protected]

[TomAiello 25]

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The way i was taught. is to run my hand up my bridle over my mesh and up till i hit where the mesh joins to the F111 or ZP. trapping the air being able to fill into the ZP. from then on i work backwards Sfolding the mesh then the bridle in my hand till i get the right lenth.. making sure the bridle comes out the top on my hand between the thumb and index finger. the ZP material mushrooms over my hand.

for low delays i have been told to not trap the ZP as much so the pilot chute starts filling up with air earlier and for deeper delays trap it completely so it cant fill with air till you pitch.

I believe this is the method that Apex teaches. I think it's pretty good, but I like the "S fold everything" method better, for two reasons. (1) I think it gets a tighter bundle to throw to full bridle extension, and (2) as noted a longer delay can cause the ZP to start inflating and create some stability problems if you let it slip around in your grip.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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I have made hundreds and hundreds of BASE jumps using the Super Mushroom PC packing technique stowed (including 42, 44, 46, and 48 size PCs - hundreds of those jumps have been with 46 and 48 PCs). I have NEVER had a pilot chute hesitation using the Super Mushroom.

I have seen good video of a jumper experiencing a noticeable hesitation with a hand held super mushroom from under 300'. The jumper is a regular poster here, so perhaps he will chime in with details of his experience.

Johnny, please believe that this is not meant as any kind of attack on you personally--it's just a discussion of a technique for stowing the PC. I believe the super mushroom is less prone to hesitation than the standard mushroom for stowed jumps, but I also believe that any mushroom technique has a higher hesitation rate than the 'S folded' or 'Loose ZP' techniqes described in this thread.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Treejumps 0]

*** "To all:
I have made hundreds and hundreds of BASE jumps using the Super Mushroom PC packing technique stowed (including 42, 44, 46, and 48 size PCs - hundreds of those jumps have been with 46 and 48 PCs). I have NEVER had a pilot chute hesitation using the Super Mushroom."

A little luck goes a long way in base. However,
one thing that I think everyone needs to know is that a few hundred successful jumps with any given technique, (be it stow method, pack method, pitch, etc) is statistically invalid. Until something is proven statistically successful in the 10,000+ tests, I wouldn't be too sure about it. It is still the 1 in 10,000, or 1 in 100,000 events that kill jumpers. The 1 in a hundred (180) or 1 in 1000 (line over) can be planned for and trained for, but the 1 in 10,000 event is random, like say a hesitation on a handheld. Over confidence in any given technique based on a small sampling (a few hundred jumps) can lead to making poor decisions. While I think the super mushroom is a good technique, I don't think it is prudent to lead others to believe that it is bombproof. Just like stocks, past performance is not a guarantee of future performance.

BTW, that must be some huge nug to serve as a internal handle. You cultivating or something?

[LouYoung 0]

I don't ever think I was specifically told not to stow a 48-inch pilot chute. I just kind of realized it would be a bad idea for a few reasons:

1) Stowed pilot chutes hesitate more often than handheld
2) Larger pilot chutes have a greater tendency to hesitate than smaller pilot chutes
3) If the object is low enough to require a short enough delay to dictate a 48 inch pilot chute, then I should probably go handheld anyway
4) It's virtually impossible to fold my 48-inch ZP pilot chute small enough to get it to go in and STAY in my pilot chute pouch

As for the 300 foot A with a sketchy exit point and jumping a FOX VTEC 265, I'd probably go stowed with a 42 inch pilot chute packed with the Super Mushroom technique. (Tested this method from 250 feet, actually.) Given the trees at the bottom and depending on the distance I'd need to clear to make the landing area, I'd rather go handheld with a larger pilot chute if I could figure out how to safely climb to the exit point.

I'm still a novice, so there might be better ways. I'd definately get advice and/or see how others are doing it if I'm not going solo.

Lou

[base570 1]

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I don't ever think I was specifically told not to stow a 48-inch pilot chute. I just kind of realized it would be a bad idea for a few reasons:

1) Stowed pilot chutes hesitate more often than handheld
2) Larger pilot chutes have a greater tendency to hesitate than smaller pilot chutes
3) If the object is low enough to require a short enough delay to dictate a 48 inch pilot chute, then I should probably go handheld anyway
4) It's virtually impossible to fold my 48-inch ZP pilot chute small enough to get it to go in and STAY in my pilot chute pouch

As for the 300 foot A with a sketchy exit point and jumping a FOX VTEC 265, I'd probably go stowed with a 42 inch pilot chute packed with the Super Mushroom technique. (Tested this method from 250 feet, actually.) Given the trees at the bottom and depending on the distance I'd need to clear to make the landing area, I'd rather go handheld with a larger pilot chute if I could figure out how to safely climb to the exit point.

I'm still a novice, so there might be better ways. I'd definately get advice and/or see how others are doing it if I'm not going solo.

Lou

5) I'm suprised no one has mentioned that by trying to stuff a huge PC into your normal PC pouch will stretch it out. If you regularily go from big PC to small PC on the same rig you are risking the smaller PC slipping out on terminal delays from the loose pouch.

I almost always go handheld when doing slider down jumps. Especially with 46' or 48' PC's. Do you really want to deal with a PC delay or a missed grab when you're that low?? If the exit is that sketchy where I have to stow a big PC, I probably won't make that jump or I'll find another way to do it. Have you thought of doing a SL from a lower more easily accessable exit point? Do you really need to go from the top? The above mentioned stowed from 250ft with a 42"pc sounds like trouble waiting to happen to me (but I'm more on the conservative/want to live a long time side).
Oh, I also have 'hundreds' of test jumps going handheld from low altitudes and haven't had a problem with my technic either

Jason

[JohnnyUtah 0]

First of all - I have never said that a hesitation is NOT POSSIBLE using the Super Mushroom. I have simply provided the experience I have with it, based on hundreds and hundreds of jumps. It has been very reliable for me.

One of my basic beliefs in parachuting is: Weird Shit Happens
Another one of my beliefs is: There will always be a random element when it comes to fabric responding to random air molecules.

Common sense says - A PC HESITATION IS ALWAYS POSSIBLE NO MATTER HOW YOU PACK/HOLD/THROW THE PILOT CHUTE.

Anyone that thinks there are guarantees in parachuting does not have common sense.

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Johnny, please believe that this is not meant as any kind of attack on you personally--it's just a discussion of a technique for stowing the PC.

I know what it is.

Do you think that far more seasoned jumpers than you or Tree will want to post valuable experience and knowledge, when you and Tree come back with replies like that?

You both put a negative spin on a technique that can save lives.
For example, take the Russian jumper (fatality#79) who had a hesitation going stowed from a ~300 foot Antenna. If he had been using the Super Mushroom that may not have happened.

Tom, please dont start your fighting and endless squabble with me again.

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I believe the super mushroom is less prone to hesitation than the standard mushroom for stowed jumps

Thats because it works. So I take it from your post that you have never had a hesitation using it either then.

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but I also believe that any mushroom technique has a higher hesitation rate than the 'S folded' or 'Loose ZP' techniqes described in this thread.

Im surprised you have not seen the loose ZP technique almost kill someone. There is a good clip of just that in one of Dennis McGlynns Videos he put out in the mid-90's.

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I have seen good video of a jumper experiencing a noticeable hesitation with a hand held super mushroom from under 300'. The jumper is a regular poster here, so perhaps he will chime in with details of his experience.

A noticeable hesitation? So not a serious hesitation then?.....like what it possibly could have been if he/she had used the regular mushroom, and possibly based on the other factors which we should all know also come into play here such as how the PC is held, how it is thrown, what direction it is thrown, airspeed when thrown, and yes even how neatly was it packed. That is why I stated on my website:

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The degree of sloppiness may affect its consistency.

That sure doesnt sound like Im trying to sell it as bombproof.

Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:[email protected]

[Faber 0]

Hi Johnny
How long delays do you do whith a 48`?
How long delays do you do whith a 45-46`?

Personaly i dont use 48` But has to say i have one that has been used once for a SL as a back up

Usaly i use my vented 46`handheld 0-1.5sec above that i use`vented 42`either handheld or stowed(stowed=2 or more secs slider off)

Its all personal and im not in a place to tell people what is right or wrong..

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Treejumps 0]

I just don't want newer jumpers (which is a lot these days) walking around thinking that this or that stow method is all they need to know. I'm not marketing myself or "my" techniques as the way to go. Going stowed with a 46" + PC is asking for a delay. It is possible to do lots of stowed jumps with 46" + PC and not get a hesitation, but the odds are far greater that the hesitation will occur with a 46 than a 42. How much greater? I don't know because no one has any real useful data to base it on. But from the looks of some of the posts on here many people were unaware that "most" experienced jumpers don't stow large PCs for a variety of reasons. Mostly, if a jump requires a 46"+ PC, it probably is a good idea to go handheld.

IMHO, any centerline extended packed PC is superior to any non-centerline extended PC.

Have yourself another super mushroom to cheer yourself up.

[460 0]

Read Adam Filippino's (sp?) guide "To stow or not to stow" on the CR website. If you are using a 48" PC, then there is no compelling reason to go stowed, unless the exit point is so difficult that it merits it.

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[JohnnyUtah 0]

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A little luck goes a long way in base.

Yeah Tree... its all luck...

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However,
one thing that I think everyone needs to know is that a few hundred successful jumps with any given technique, (be it stow method, pack method, pitch, etc) is statistically invalid.

I dont BASE jump according to statistics...good thing its all luck!

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Until something is proven statistically successful in the 10,000+ tests, I wouldn't be too sure about it.

So basically what youre telling everyone is that they should not be too sure about the Huck-It container since it has not been tested anywhere near 10,000 times. Probably only tested a hundred times at best....not reliable.

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It is still the 1 in 10,000, or 1 in 100,000 events that kill jumpers. The 1 in a hundred (180) or 1 in 1000 (line over) can be planned for and trained for, but the 1 in 10,000 event is random, like say a hesitation on a handheld.

Its all luck dude.

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Over confidence in any given technique based on a small sampling (a few hundred jumps) can lead to making poor decisions.

Oh, you mean like when you said (quoted here) you could hook it in again and again with no problem because you had gotten away with it once. Thanks for clarifying.

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While I think the super mushroom is a good technique,

Oh, so now that many people are using and also believe in it, you think its a good technique. Thats straight up bizzare (and good luck) seeing as you were the one person who totally tried to discredit it when I first posted about it on this forum
Dude, I had been jumping it for years before I posted about it. The reason I posted about it here, was because BASE 689 was asking me to put up some pictures of it on the internet. So I did to help others out.

This is not a popularity contest for me like it is for you.
I know exactly why you tried to discredit it. Because it was something that I thought of and tested and shared.
Oh no, we cant let people think Johnny knows what he is talking about.
That would go against our political agenda.

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What you said Tree:
I was suggesting that Jonny's method seemed drawn out, complicated, and resulted in an equal or lesser outcome of the standard pack job. I agree taht your (the standard method) takes a minute and has proven to work well. I don't think Utah's method would open any slower, but would certainly open no faster. All stowed PCs can hesitate. An extended centerline would seem to reduce the possibility. The worst method I've seen is the burrito. If you absolutely can't afford a hesitation, go hand held.

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I don't think it is prudent to lead others to believe that it is bombproof.

Whos doing that?
You are the one who is misleading people, just like a politician.

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Just like stocks, past performance is not a guarantee of future performance.

Just like with stocks hun? So it really is a crap shoot then. Im surprised were not all on the list.

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BTW, that must be some huge nug to serve as a internal handle. You cultivating or something?

Tree, youre a waste of time.
I thought you were going to stop your nonsense.
You hurt other jumpers when you discourage knowledgable jumpers like myself from posting here.

Oh yea, its all luck....nevermind.

Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:[email protected]

[JohnnyUtah 0]

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Hi Johnny
How long delays do you do whith a 48`?
How long delays do you do whith a 45-46`?

Personaly i dont use 48` But has to say i have one that has been used once for a SL as a back up

Usaly i use my vented 46`handheld 0-1.5sec above that i use`vented 42`either handheld or stowed(stowed=2 or more secs slider off)

Its all personal and im not in a place to tell people what is right or wrong..

Faber, sorry man, I just wasted a bunch of time trying to set the record straight so people would not be mislead by Treejumps. Ill see if I can get some time later to share my experiences with you and others.

Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:[email protected]

[ZegeunerLeben 0]

>>Johnny! Who the heck let you back in here anyway?

Seriously bro, it's a shame every time you post on here trying to share it turns into a flame fest. Pity.
Resume

[Treejumps 0]

Yes Johnny, I am a waste of your time, and you are wasted all the time, and perhaps that is why you rant and rave so much, even when it is just a friendly discussion of PCs.

Say it with me slow Utah: I am am a F-B-I agent.

Have a great year.

[LouYoung 0]

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I'm suprised no one has mentioned that by trying to stuff a huge PC into your normal PC pouch will stretch it out.

I agree. The main reason I had one stuffed in there was for storage for the climb up. The bastard kept slipping out and actually made the climb scarier than it should have been. Doing that repeatedly will surely stretch out the pouch.

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The above mentioned stowed from 250ft with a 42"pc sounds like trouble waiting to happen to me

Not something I've done more than once or plan on repeating unless there's a really, really good reason.

Lou

PS - I'm a big fan of the Super Mushroom for nearly all my stowed jumps. It might take longer to pack, but if it helps even a little bit, that time packing is time well spent.

[JohnnyUtah 0]

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Say it with me slow Utah: I am am a F-B-I agent.

Dude, its: I am an FBI agent!

Whos the one thats wasted?

Now go back to jumping PCs with no hole in them and hooking it in....
Your luck is running high.

Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:[email protected]

[JaapSuter 0]

Sigh...