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shibu

How TO Know When Skydiving Is NOT The Sport For You.

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anything bigger and you bet your ass i'm doing a barrel roll. which is a better use of that 5 seconds.



I think you'd be better off tracking like hell, scanning while you do so....avoiding anyone BELOW you....

A barrel roll doesn't do anything for horizontal separation....
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Don't have a lotta big way experience I see...


obviously


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DON'T do that.


i dont plan on it. belly jumpers stress out way too much and suck the fun out of a skydive;)

care to elaborate on why you shouldn't do it? i would assume since you are breaking off and pulling low you wouldn't want to waste the time.
"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

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I won't go into the critique that's certain to be coming, regarding what you've learned so far about the role of barrel rolls. But I'll say:


Barrel rolls can be useful when one has planned a dive where the skills are lacking, everything goes to shit, and people are all over the sky.

But ... when one can plan dives with appropriately skilled people, and everyone follows the rules even if things don't go perfectly, then amazingly the need to barrel roll pretty much goes away!

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anything bigger and you bet your ass i'm doing a barrel roll. which is a better use of that 5 seconds.



I think you'd be better off tracking like hell, scanning while you do so....avoiding anyone BELOW you....

A barrel roll doesn't do anything for horizontal separation....



but it will keep you from deploying and having some asshat rip through your canopy and out of your toes.

just like everything else in skydiving, it has pros and cons.
"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

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I won't go into the critique that's certain to be coming, regarding what you've learned so far about the role of barrel rolls. But I'll say:


Barrel rolls can be useful when one has planned a dive where the skills are lacking, everything goes to shit, and people are all over the sky.

But ... when one can plan dives with appropriately skilled people, and everyone follows the rules even if things don't go perfectly, then amazingly the need to barrel roll pretty much goes away!



agreed 100%.

i wish some other folks would learn some manners from you.
"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

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but it will keep you from deploying and having some asshat rip through your canopy and out of your toes.

just like everything else in skydiving, it has pros and cons.



You have much to learn, young skywalker....
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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:D:D
Mitch. You have been caught off base and tagged out.
Score a pick-off for the pitcher.
:D:D



from someone your age, i would expect something a little more mature.


Well, Mitch. I've talked you you about offering advice before.
You didn't catch on then, obviously. Maybe a different approach would work...guess not that one anyway. How's this:

Sometimes one thinks he knows more than he actually does. It's not uncommon for young jumpers who want to be helpful to offer advice to other young jumpers. It is often a problem in that one doesn't know enough to know what one doesn't know and it manifests itself in sometimes very dangerous advice being offered (Not saying yours in this thread, is.) There's a label attached to that that you may have heard of - 100-jump Wonder.


As far as you, personally, sometimes you get it right, sometimes wrong.

As far as the barrel rolls...your goal is to get horizontal separation...as much and as fast as you can. The more people in the sky, the more it's needed. Slowing down to do a barrel roll takes up speed and altitude that is better used tracking your ass off. A look over the shoulder is more effective in the long run.

As far as the comment about belly-flyers stressing...maybe belly-flyers care more about skydiving safety than young free-flyers do. I dunno. It never hurts to listen to safety advice whatever discipline you take up.

As far as seeing your alti in a track...yes. It's easy enough.

I've invited you to talk to me about these things before and I'll offer again. I'll leave it to you to decide if you want to talk or not when you get here.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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the stress JOKE was to another poster, and was a play on words.

telling a new jumper to look at his altimeter while he is tracking, to me, is a bad idea. even in aff, as you know, they do not tell the student to track for 500 feet, they say track for 3 seconds. better to count to 5 and watch where you are going and who is around. you tend to go in the direction you look. perhaps i should have said you cant look at your alti without changing your body position. you move your head and you tend to drift that way.

you do not need to stop your tack early or slow down to flip on your back for a second. this is easily done while tracking.

just because you know me personally doesn't mean you are any different than anyone else on this website. if you want to flame me, have some decency and pm me.
"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

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telling a new jumper to look at his altimeter while he is tracking, TO ME, is a bad idea. perhaps i should have said you cant look at your alti without changing your body position. you move your head and you tend to drift that way.



Wow. At our experience level you tend to move your head during a barrel roll you know. And you absolutely CAN glance at your alti without changing your heading.

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you do not need to stop your track early or slow down to flip on your back for a second. this is easily done while tracking.



I really dont feel qualified to comment as I only have about 2x as many jumps as you but perhaps you should reevaluate your qualifications to give advice like this to new(er) jumpers. I am sure several 1K+ jumpers will be willing to explain exactly why this is very very bad advice. (and no I dont consider myself particularly experienced)....

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

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And you absolutely CAN glance at your alti without changing your heading



you are right, you and i can glance at our alti and not change heading. for him it might be more difficult.

a glance is all WE need to know what altitude we are at. go back to 25 jumps and throw in tracking on heading and trying to lock onto your altitude. good luck.

and quit being condescending, it's rude.
"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

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you are right, you and i can glance at our alti and not change heading. for him it might be more difficult.

and quit being condescending, it's rude.


So its easier to barrel roll and maintain the efficiency and direction of your track than to glance at your altimeter and do the same?

Also when you are barrel rolling and someone deploys below you??? IMO, better to track like your life depends on it and scan forward, down and around you than to waste time barrel rolling. When getting ready to deploy have a good look around while waving like a madman...
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

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If you start tracking at 1.5-2k above pull alt you should stop tracking in about 5 secs, check alt, and lock in with 1000-500 ft to go. Even if the track is only 3 secs, that's fine if it's just you (and one other).



this is the scenario i have been talking about, not big ways. it is a better use of that time to do a barrel roll imo.
"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

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Mitch...we are talking to shibu who has professed having a problem with altitude awareness. He is out on his own having trouble. You are telling him to count seconds. He stated quite clearly that his counting is off. His altimeter is what's going to save his butt.

As far as AFF...we teach them to count 1, 2, 3, 4 (and some AFFI carry it on to 5)...not seconds. We know that their brain is not functioning fully because of the adrenaline, etc. We know that they are not going to be able to reliably count seconds. We don't really care if they track 4 seconds or 8 seconds. We are not letting them do it near pull time until late in the training ans even then we are right next to them in case they lose it.

But you didn't know that, did you?

Your barrel rolls? You can listen and heed or you can ignore. Nobody is going to hold a gun to your head.

Nobody is flaming you...yet.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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If you start tracking at 1.5-2k above pull alt you should stop tracking in about 5 secs, check alt, and lock in with 1000-500 ft to go. Even if the track is only 3 secs, that's fine if it's just you (and one other).



this is the scenario i have been talking about, not big ways. it is a better use of that time to do a barrel roll imo.



From your post#22:
"you misunderstood or i wasn't very clear. on anything up to a 3 or 4 way it isn't necessary to barrel roll if everyone is on level and you know where they are going.

anything bigger and you bet your ass i'm doing a barrel roll. which is a better use of that 5 seconds. "

?????????????


OK, Mitch...I'll not reply to you anymore in here. Talk to me when you get here.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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1.  Sit down with your DZs chief instructor and put together a plan to help you get back on track.  Things to consider include:

- canopy control course
- formal coaching in your areas of weakness
- identifying who are suitable folks for you to jump with in an  informal coaching manner (often a grey beard who doesn't want to work at the DZ but who is wise and willing to jump with new folks.)
- Review of EPs regularly (at LEAST monthly).

2.  For a while... Pretend that you don't have a license and follow the "student" rules in the BSR and local DZ rules.  These rules will help you stay safer.  These rules will guide you to conservative gear, weather, and such. 

3.  Hang out and learn as much as you can on the ground both during the day and after the beer light goes on. 

4.  Jump, land, pack, repeat....   In fact, I suggest that you plan a three day weekend of concentrated jumping to "prime the pump".  You could easily do 15 jumps in three days... Which would be ~50% of your career jumps to date. If you did that with good dirt dives and debriefs from experienced jumpers or coaches... I think you would probably solve your problem!  Two solid weekends (10 jumps each weekend) would do the same thing.

5. See my reading list here

[URL]
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4052172 [/URL]

Good Luck!!!



Thanks for the info. I plan on sitting down with an instructor prior to my next jump. I wanted to show them that I have a plan already to make sure I don't repeat the potentially fatal mistakes I already made. I ordered Germain's book & in the meantime I will read over the articles you linked to.

Thank you for all of the relevant info.

And to everyone else who posted the replies... Thanks for taking the time to give me that much needed advice. I didn't expect all the responses. I feel much better with these numerous suggestions. I will be sure to go over them with my instructor or coach prior to implementing them but I am certain many of them will be very helpful.

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this is the scenario i have been talking about, not big ways. it is a better use of that time to do a barrel roll imo.



..and, difficult though it may be to accept when being told it less than politely, your opinion is wrong. The best use of that time is to track as far and flat as you can, and no matter what you might feel during track, you can't do that while you're rolling. The numbers really are in on this one, and they're unequivocal.

Big groups, little groups, it matters not.

This is fine. Skydiving is a learning journey all the time, and I'm 100% convinced I'll go on to hold totally wrong opinions about it in the future. The key is being able to let go of my misconceptions when they're presented to me, no matter how gruff the tone.

Don't take it personally, but take it on board.

Aaanyway.
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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this is the scenario i have been talking about, not big ways. it is a better use of that time to do a barrel roll imo.



..and, difficult though it may be to accept when being told it less than politely, your opinion is wrong. The best use of that time is to track as far and flat as you can, and no matter what you might feel during track, you can't do that while you're rolling. The numbers really are in on this one, and they're unequivocal.

Big groups, little groups, it matters not.

This is fine. Skydiving is a learning journey all the time, and I'm 100% convinced I'll go on to hold totally wrong opinions about it in the future. The key is being able to let go of my misconceptions when they're presented to me, no matter how gruff the tone.

Don't take it personally, but take it on board.

Aaanyway.



ok ok ok, i am wrong. shibu, sorry for the misinformation.
"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

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Don't have a lotta big way experience I see...


obviously


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DON'T do that.


i dont plan on it. belly jumpers stress out way too much and suck the fun out of a skydive;)

care to elaborate on why you shouldn't do it? i would assume since you are breaking off and pulling low you wouldn't want to waste the time.


Well...there are several reasons~ you are wasting separation time, and there's a better than even chance when you come out of your barrel roll it isn't on the same heading you started it.

Might be someone off to your left that would have been fine if you would have kept tracking, but now you didn't go as far ya you could have or maybe they expected while you're doin' freestyle in a track...and whoa, you suddenly are pointed right at them during deployment because you've changed headings.

The REASON belly fliers 'stress out' is because people take what should be the simplest RW, with long time recognized safety procedures, and muck it up throwing in stuff that jeopardizes the well being of others on the load.

Plan the dive, dive the plan...if when dirt diving you say break off at 4500', track 5 seconds, barrel roll ~ at most DZ's you would be encouraged to 'change that plan' ;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I was a bad student too. But it came to me eventually.

saving your life is the big one - so simpler dives that focus on the basics. Jump, Pull, then canopy control

If you are not getting the instruction you need, then change instructors or dropzones and try something different.

Sounds like you need canopy control training for sure. Hop n pops, then you cannot 'forget to pull', since you are doing that out the door and do that until you get the canopy stuff to a point where you are safe for yourself.

I did not understand the 'not taking your seatbelt off at 1K'.

1000' is not ahard and fast number, nor should it be. There are a lot of reasons to leave your seatbelt on.
1. Could I get out of the plane right now?
2. Would I get out of the plane right now?

If the answer to either of these in NO, then consider leaving your seatbelt on. If you are at the front of the Twin Otter, you ain't getting out anyway at 1000' - too many people in front of you. At 3000', fine, or leave it on; while everyone else is leaving, you have lots of time to undo it. It also helps Center of Gravity issues with the pilot if there is a serious control issue.

If you are sitting by the door, then yes, you are expected to have your seatbelt off and probably be ready to open the dorr in the emergency. Not comfortable with that? Then ask to sit somewhere else (not often possible).

I would stick to hop n pops and hire a dedicated canopy coach until you understand the concepts of pattern, altitude, and flaring reasonably well.

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thank you for your respectful reply. it is appreciated and the information comes across a lot easier and makes the listener more receptive.

and i really was just kidding about the stress;)



And thank you for being receptive to advise, a couple posts up you said something ya rarely hear from skydivers...'I was wrong'. Good on you! B|










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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