AggieDave 6 #51 February 17, 2004 QuoteI think all this complaining just makes manufacturers afraid to post on here. I want to hear more from them. That's what goes on and has gone on, more and more as time goes on. The thing is, though, for the most part, each gear manufacture has kept from negative reinforcement. They haven't claimed that another rig/canopy/whatever was unsafe, as was done here.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #52 February 17, 2004 He claimed mirage is better made than wings. He went as far as to say a mirage will work 100% of the time, whereas a wings may not. But that's not the same as calling a wings unsafe. Besides, if the guy believes wings containers are actually unsafe, I'd like to hear why. I understand why people get upset when a manufacturer talks this way. I'd rather hear this stuff from an unaffiliated master rigger. But guess what? There is no unnafilliated master rigger on here explaining to me why one container is better than another. Every time anyone asks what container to buy, the response is always the same. "I love my ____." Now that is useful information. Everyone needs to learn at some point that they'll probably be happy with whatever container they decide to buy. Not too many people don't like their custom made container. Most people even love their used container. But does that mean all containers are created equal? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vallerina 2 #53 February 17, 2004 QuoteHave mirages worked 100% of the time? No, which is why it's never a good idea to say that something will work 100% of the time. If in a few months down the road Mirage discovers a problem that they have to fix on all rigs (no...not talking about the pin issue where most rigs had to get new pins...), well, then that "works 100% of the time" bit goes straight down the drain.There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #54 February 17, 2004 Quote Then why the need for secondary covers if the first ones are so good. I sure don't want to pay for them So you have no reserve in your container, right? I worry about people like you. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aubsmell 0 #55 February 17, 2004 Ha ha Justin he called your rig metrosexual.... I've seen a lot of things said in these posts over the years, but I've never seen the sexuality of a product questioned yet.... I think someone owes beer. Although you could use this in your marketing plan....something like a free bottle of CK1 with every Stock G3. Aubrey Aerodyne Makers of the Icon a regular sexual rig, welcomed to be worn by people of all sexual preferences, homo, hetero and metro. (beastialitic necrophiliacs please choose another product)"Those who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt those who are doing it" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nbblood 0 #56 February 17, 2004 Quoteum, That O-4 pay must be mighty nice. You know I'm not complaining....lol. Blues, NathanBlues, Nathan If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nbblood 0 #57 February 17, 2004 QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As far as Javelin main flaps opening.....old news....fixed. The new ones with tuck tabs don't come open. I've had 3 and never had one open, but the older ones with velcro do flap in the wind. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's not an accurate statement. Larger sizes of Javs and all the student ones are still very prone to come open. Ok, guess what I should've said is I've never had one open, no riser flaps or pin flaps. I shouldn't have been so definitive in that statement. Of course, I've seen flaps of other rigs that have the same issues. Blues, NathanBlues, Nathan If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #58 February 17, 2004 So that people are not misled, stitch count may not mean crap. It depends on what you are sewing and what with (#5 cord or E thread). If Wings is using #5 cord on their harnesses at five stitches per inch then they are exactly in the middle of the standard of 4-6 stitches per inch. If Mirage is using "E" thread at 12 stitches per inch then they are at the high end of the standard of 8-12 stitches per inch. And more is defiantly not always better. Based on the above, Wings is sewing the harness correctly. If they were to use 12 stitches per inch using #5 cord it could cause a catastrophic zipper failure of the harness and would be built outside of the standard. If you are going to make statements of fact you need to include all of the information so that the intelligent readers that read the information can make informed decisions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #59 February 17, 2004 Why aren't you looking at the Infinity or even the new Icon?Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #60 February 17, 2004 QuoteMakers of the Icon a regular sexual rig, welcomed to be worn by people of all sexual preferences, homo, hetero and metro. (beastialitic necrophiliacs please choose another product YOU ARE A FREAK!!!!!!!!!!Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardrop 0 #61 February 17, 2004 Lets put it this way Numbers.... it's all about numbers ..but not stitch count ( BS by the way !!) Number of years on the market ... Number of containers sold Number of sponsored teams = Millions of jumps on the system Tried, Tested, Proven, Reliable technology Vector, Javelin, Racer , and Talons on that order have the most systems out there !! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #62 February 17, 2004 Hahaha... don't get me started on Aerodyne rigs... Just kidding. Saw you guys at Williston last month. Nice looking rigs. I shoulda tried one. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BBKid 0 #63 February 17, 2004 Maybe I'm weird, but I read what dinog wrote a little differently. I just figured (s)he(?) was trying to say that on every jump you're going to use the harness/container, whereas you aren't always going to use the reserve, for example. I didn't take it as an implication that a mirage is safer than a wings. But then again, I already knew what has been posted above about stitch count and material. Nick --------------------------- "I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #64 February 17, 2004 QuoteLets put it this way Numbers.... it's all about numbers ..but not stitch count ( BS by the way !!) Number of years on the market ... Number of containers sold Number of sponsored teams = Millions of jumps on the system Tried, Tested, Proven, Reliable technology Vector, Javelin, Racer , and Talons on that order have the most systems out there !! It was all new and relatively untested at one point. Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 54 #65 February 17, 2004 QuoteQuoteLets put it this way Numbers.... it's all about numbers ..but not stitch count ( BS by the way !!) Number of years on the market ... Number of containers sold Number of sponsored teams = Millions of jumps on the system Tried, Tested, Proven, Reliable technology Vector, Javelin, Racer , and Talons on that order have the most systems out there !! It was all new and relatively untested at one point. But it was different than it is now in many cases - look at the Service Buletins... These systems improved over time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #66 February 18, 2004 But aren't all of the manufacturers existing today using relatively well known and accepted technology? The previous poster was implying, more stating outright that some manufacturers are better than other because they've been on the market longer/sold more. I don't think I'd have any problem jumping say an Icon, though it is very new. Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harksaw 0 #67 February 18, 2004 He never said that a Mirage would work 100% of the time. He said that a parachute system needs to work 100% of the time, and the conclusion was that construction is important, and Mirage has more solid construction because it has what he calls higher quality materials and better sewing. I don't see whats wrong with that, why can't you compare two rigs? I think he compared them quite objectively. IMHO he did a good job of explaining why a Mirage costs more, and I agree with pilotdave that there's nothing wrong with an objetive comparison of rigs.__________________________________________________ I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowjumper 0 #68 February 18, 2004 I bought a used Mirage G3 for my first rig last year. I love it. If you do go used it is important to get a comfortable fit. Try out a few different rigs and harness sizes to find out what fits you best. Ask a rigger for help if you are not quite sure how one should fit. It worked for me anyway...We who are, not like Others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #69 February 18, 2004 QuoteI am not that excited about secondary riser covers. I find if the design is good enough with primary ones, why add extra material to restrict the risers during deployment and increase chances of inducing line twists? I'm not crazy about how much the primary/only riser flaps (they have to be big to work well) on many rigs overlap/cover the reserve container. I don't know of any evidence that would indicate that rigs with secondary covers cause bag spinning problems, do you?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 3 #70 February 18, 2004 QuoteI don't know of any evidence that would indicate that rigs with secondary covers cause bag spinning problems, do you? I do. I also have seen plenty of instances where "standard" riser covers cause eneven openings. Hop and pops in swoop competitions are great places to see funky openings. It's for those reasons that many people exit for hop and pops with their riser covers either open or closed and under their risers. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan 1 #71 February 18, 2004 QuoteI don't know of any evidence that would indicate that rigs with secondary covers cause bag spinning problems, do you? When Rigging Innovations initially introduced the Voodoo it had secondary covers for the main risers. After it had been in the field for a while they got feedback about line twists/off heading openings as a result of uneven releases of the riser covers. They responded by doing some additional testing in house and changing the design to single covers on the main risers. If you would like details, I'm sure an e-mail to Sandy at RI would get you all you want to know.alan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #72 February 18, 2004 There you have it! Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #73 February 18, 2004 QuoteSo you have no reserve in your container, right? I worry about people like you. No need to be such a Jackass about it. Shoud I find a Reflex with the catapult system based on your 'two are better than one' theory? There is obviouly a large difference between skydiving without a reserve and jumping a rig that has a good single riser cover system. An effective single cover system can be made without adding the cost or complexity of a second cover. I am not putting the Mirage system down and I realize my inital response was somewhat sarcastic. I say somewhat beacause I do believe secondary riser covers are overrated. Jump what you like, but the original poster seemed to imply I would be safer jumping my Micron than my Wings because of the Secondary covers. I don't buy into that line of thinking even though I do jump a reserve. Worry if you want, the stress is on you Josh That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 6 #74 February 19, 2004 Shoud I find a Reflex with the catapult system based on your 'two are better than one' theory? What the eff is that supposed to mean? The Catapult works just fine and hasn't killed anyone, in fact it's saved a few people. Please explain. Mick. (Catapult inventor/ designer). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #75 February 19, 2004 It was not intended to offend reflex owners or designers. There was however much controversy over the system and as far as I am aware no other manufacture offers it. I have about as much problem with those who pefer the catapult with those who prefer secondary riser covers. None My comments stemmed from those who feel jumping without secondary covers is not as safe. It got so far as to equate it to jumping without a reserve. Thats ridiculus. I was going to fabricate another example and then the reflex came to mind. I admit I did use it becuase of its controversy without thought to those I may offend. Sorry That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
