Javelin, Mirage, or Wings?

[nicknitro71 0]

Wings here. Love it. The best CS. I would buy it again in a heart beat.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[craddock 0]

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Would you feel comfortable jumping your Vector which is a great rig knowing that they lessened their stitch count or removed your secondary riser covers so the rig could be less expensive especially when the container system has to work 100% of the time? Well i guess you would make that decision for yourself.

Absoulutely I would. I would save money over having secondary riser covers anytime. How many covers do we need? Why is two the perfect number? I do not like them and I feel that they are a band aid fix. I have had a couple of Wings and I also have a Micron 304(vector III) with the extra stiching? and the secondary covers. If my Wings and Micron are sitting next to each other both packed, I am grabbing the Wings every time. Everytime.
I do like the Mirage toggles alot, now if they could only design a different Dive Loop I would buy their risers.

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Also Mirage uses a 40lb reserve spring where wings uses a 25lb.

Sounds like fun to pack

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. The fact is we use more cordura

I hate cordura.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Kris 0]

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that is not what you said...

you said that since you guys use more expensive hardware and materials your rig will work 100% of the time...infering that the wings due to it using less expensive materials will not.

That's what I got from it as well. That kind of attitude & tactics from a manufacturer makes me almost sad to be a Mirage owner.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[pilotdave 0]

I absolutely 100% disagree. I'm smart enough to know that doubling the number of stitches doesnt make the rig twice as strong or twice as safe. But who else here knew that a mirage has double the stitches and all those other details? I personally want manufacturers to directly compare their products with others MORE often, not less. Yeah, it was clearly worded in a way that made the mirage sound better, but that's fine with me. I want to hear this stuff.

Dave

[pilotdave 0]

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Would you feel comfortable jumping your Vector which is a great rig knowing that they lessened their stitch count or removed your secondary riser covers so the rig could be less expensive especially when the container system has to work 100% of the time?

As long as Bill Booth still runs the place, sure! The guy know's what he's doing...

Dave

[sdctlc 0]

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I absolutely 100% disagree. I'm smart enough to know that doubling the number of stitches doesnt make the rig twice as strong or twice as safe. But who else here knew that a mirage has double the stitches and all those other details? I personally want manufacturers to directly compare their products with others MORE often, not less. Yeah, it was clearly worded in a way that made the mirage sound better, but that's fine with me. I want to hear this stuff.

Dave

I agreee to the point that you are comparing feature differences or design differences. Not a backhanded or in this case a not so backhanded slam at a competitor. Knowing the reasoning or thoughts behind a rig design is great. Let the customer know what the manufacturer is thinking and they can make an informed decision. Maybe the manufacturer has a reason for the design they have but to negatively sell your rig against a specific competitor is not salesmanship, good advertising or anything other then BS.

A negative sales pitch, even a backhanded one which this was, is going to hurt you much more than making your case as to why your product is better based on its features. If it is better, it will stand up against the competiton not from a slam but on its merits..... Consumers in general may not be crystal clear sales-tactic wise for things sold/presented the right way which honestly can be good but you can be damn sure that it will be remembered if you take the approach noted above. Comparisons and theory are one thing, what was above was something different, at least in my eyes..

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[tbrown 26]

Until recently I was thinking of buying new gear and had pretty much narrowed it down to a Wings, Infinity, or maybe a Vector III. But then I got a wonderful deal on a complete second hand rig and ended up with a 3 year old Javelin. And it's a great rig! I think we could all agree that ALL of the current rigs in the U.S. market are safe and reliable, at least the more recent ones that are built for high speed freefall, like free flying. There are a lot of bee-yootiful rigs on the used market and you'll save a lot AND get more jump money for your trouble if you CAREFULLY shop the used market. You probably should wait a few years before buying used, so you'll have a more specific idea of what you want from a rig. Other than that, some of the lower priced rigs are beautifully built and some of the more expensive rigs are...well, over-priced.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[pilotdave 0]

I guess I see things differently. I wanna see a royal rumble of gear manufacturers. Let em go all out and trash talk each other's products.

Personally, I think Mirages are overpriced. At least now I know it's because they use twice as many stitches as they need to! Now I would have LOVED to have heard a comment like that from Sunrise or Sunpath. But that's just me.

I understand why some people would be upset about this. But I don't like fluff. I don't want to hear that a rig is comfortable, looks good, and comes in 50 flavors (I think when the tie-dye craze wears out, flavored fabrics will be coming along). I want to hear that they are the best because their hard housings are made of depleted uranium stitched on with inconel thread. I want the specifics, and I don't care how sleazy they get to give them to me! I want to know why their rig is better than all the others. The only manufacturer that has so far been able to tell me that is relative workshop. I even asked a sunpath rep why the javelin is the best rig. He told me it's comfortable, has hard inserts in the risers, and blah blah blah, stuff that's true of every rig on the market (that I'd consider). I'd rather him tell me that the javelin is safer than the vector3 because ____. I can decide for myself if whatever he tells me has any merit. But he couldn't come up with a thing.

So when I hear the stitching on a mirage is better than the stitching on a wings, or the stitching on a cobalt is better than the stitching on a PD canopy (which brought out this same kind of conversation a long time ago), I've at least learned something new.

Dave

[sdctlc 0]

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I guess I see things differently. I wanna see a royal rumble of gear manufacturers. Let em go all out and trash talk each other's products.



So when I hear the stitching on a mirage is better than the stitching on a wings, or the stitching on a cobalt is better than the stitching on a PD canopy (which brought out this same kind of conversation a long time ago), I've at least learned something new.

Dave

The problem with that thinking is that sometimes more is not good, bigger is not better and just becuse someone can talk sh*t about the other guy he is not always best.... Anybody can paint a picture based on their view by slamming the other guy. If everybody goes about it in that avenue then the true virtues of the product are lost and it becomes a "who can slam the other guy the best" coontest.

We are getting off topic here from the vein that has been going on. If you want to have a contest like that then more power to you. If you think that that it is a true evaluation on a product, that is your opinion. it is not my view and in my opinion it is a very poor way to go about an evualation. As I stated before you can put a number of the points into a good comparison sheet and make your point and belief in "your product" without slamming the other guy. I dont think it shows a belief in your product if you feel you need to slam the other guy to "win". Again it is my opinion and I stand by it.

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[Tonto 1]

Go Mirage.

4 weeks, and it could be lying on your living room floor, and no one is going to point out your flapping pin or riser covers on video.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[JustRelax 0]

I've just bought a new Wings (and the other bits second hand) as my first rig. I went with the wings because on checking out the different threads there were a lot of skydivers prefering the Wings container. Secondly I have in mind to do wingflying one day and the wings manuafacters design their rigs with that in mind, which means they have covered any openning issues so the container enhances the bag coming out squarely. That's why I went wings... I am just saying how my buying decision went...i'm too young in the sport to say any more than that.

________________________________________
Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own.

[nbblood 0]

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You're gonna be waiting a long time for a Javelin.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


sunpath production time is down to 16 weeks and decreasing. so it's not as long as it was...

I just ordered a new Odyssey and they told me 14 weeks.....we'll see. On the other hand my wife ordered a Mirage G4 at the same time and they told her 5 weeks. This is the second rig she's ordered through Mirage and they told her 5 weeks the first time. It actually showed up in 3.....they're fast. Depends on if you can stand the wait.

As far as which to get, this is as much of a debate as Ford, Chevy, Dodge. Pick the one you like, they're all pretty good. I agree that you might want to go used for your first rig. I also agree that you want to look for something 96 or newer. As far as Javelin main flaps opening.....old news....fixed. The new ones with tuck tabs don't come open. I've had 3 and never had one open, but the older ones with velcro do flap in the wind.

There's a bunch of really good rigs on the market now. You may want to make your decision based on a good deal on a used rig at first. I wouldn't limit yourself to just the three you mentioned. But if money isn't an issue, my preference is Javelin or Mirage. Love 'em both. Just my opinion though.

Blues,
Nathan

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[skymedic 0]

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Go Mirage.

4 weeks, and it could be lying on your living room floor, and no one is going to point out your flapping pin or riser covers on video.

t
D515

That's funny, as I've seen plenty of G3's and G4's with flapping riser covers and main pin covers....but then again I've seen every major rig manufacturer have this issue. sometimes it's a packing issue other times a sizing issue. but to claim that you will never have this happen if you buy a mirage is just a flat out falicy....

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[douwanto 22]

No one has said anything about the new Aerodyne Icon
You can get your whole rig from Aerodyne at a great price all TSO'd under the newest TSO.
These systems are awsome.
check them out here
www.areodyne-int.com
If you have any questions contact
Aubrey Easterlin at
[email protected]

later
Chris

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[dustin19d 0]

[replyI just ordered a new Odyssey

[Tonto 1]

I didn't shoot anyone down.

I answered the post using my experience. You get no taller chopping others off at the knees.

PM'd you.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[skymedic 0]

mate I wasn't shooting anyone down either...just stating facts as they are. dont take my post as a flame at all. just stating facts. no container including all of the above are perfect all the time.

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[craddock 0]

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4 weeks, and it could be lying on your living room floor, and no one is going to point out your flapping pin or riser covers on video.

Then why the need for secondary covers if the first ones are so good. I sure don't want to pay for them

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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As far as Javelin main flaps opening.....old news....fixed. The new ones with tuck tabs don't come open. I've had 3 and never had one open, but the older ones with velcro do flap in the wind.

That's not an accurate statement. Larger sizes of Javs and all the student ones are still very prone to come open.

[dinog3 0]

Whew! It seems like i have stirred the pot a bit. Ok i want to be crystal clear on this one. No where in my post did i ever mention that the wings container was unsafe, or did i say that the wings container would fail. If anyones rig was unsafe to jump it would not have a TSO. The fact is there are differences in production costs that dictate the price of the harness container system. That is what i was trying to convey to Pilot Dave by presenting fact. In no way is presenting fact, slandering or slamming another manufacturer. Anyone who knows me or has dealt with me or my company knows i have never talked another product down including my friends at Relative and Sunpath. Pointing out factual differences is not poor selling techniques. One more thing to be clear on as well is the container working 100% of the time. The point is the container system has to work 100% of the time and people seem to shop for the cheapest container when they will spend more on a main which has a higher rate of malfunction. Once again, when the ____ hits the fan i feel more comfortable knowing i spent the extra money for a higher quality product.

[AggieDave 6]

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The point is the container system has to work 100% of the time and people seem to shop for the cheapest container when they will spend more on a main which has a higher rate of malfunction. Once again, when the ____ hits the fan i feel more comfortable knowing i spent the extra money for a higher quality product.

You're still implying that the Wings container (and any container that doesn't cost as much as a Mirage for that matter) will be unsafe when "the ____ hits the fan."

You're digging a hole buddy, and I promise you, I'm not the only one that is shocked and generally upset with the comments you've made here. I promise you, your comments has cost your company business!

If I was you, I would just apologize, quite trying to explain, and move on before you did anymore damage!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[nicknitro71 0]

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The wings has a stitch count of 5 per inch where Mirage has 12 per inch.

As pointed out by MrHixxx, Wings uses type 7 all the way through no need for the extra stitching.

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Also Mirage uses a 40lb reserve spring where wings uses a 25lb.

As pointed out by MrHixxx, The Mirage has to travel through 4 flaps with its 40 lb spring. the Wings has to travel through 2. Once the p/c has cleared the wings is about 80% f-111 and 20% mesh. The Mirage is about 50/50 of each. So, I like the the actually deployment force of the Wings with more material.

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higher quality hardware, stronger stiffening plastics, secured cable housings topped with cast stainless end fittings as opposed to the wings

Wings with SS option comes with the highest quality hardware on the market and their cable housing are the best ones I've seen so far. I'm waiting to see the new Infinity's ones.

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The pricing is based on us being able to purchase the higher quality of materials

What higher quality material? Is your cordura much better than the Wings'? I bet it is made in the same factory! Same for the hardware, PDF? (The good one)

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Would you feel comfortable jumping your Vector which is a great rig knowing that they lessened their stitch count or removed your secondary riser covers so the rig could be less expensive especially when the container system has to work 100% of the time?

So what you are saying here is that a Wings can be seen as a Vector minus all the stitching and the secondary covers! Again the extra stitching is not needed and niether the secondary risers do on a Wings. I really did not know I was jumping a rotten Vector! I must be nuts.

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Well i guess you would make that decision for yourself

So in the end if you are young and crazy jump a Wings. If you are wise jump a G3/G4 and nothing is ever gonna happen to you!

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If you are ever in Deland and would like to get a tour here, you might have a better idea on what i mean

While you are in the area visit Sunrise too. Then you can get the best idea.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[Unstable 8]

Just out of Curiosity, What made you decide that it was going to be one of these three rigs that you were going to buy?? All are absolutly superb rigs, but I feel that there are others of equal quality (and maybe greater comfort) and those three - Vector3, Infinity, Racer 2K3, all are Amazing rigs. Here is what I did - assuming that all are quality pieces of equipment, pick up the phone, call the Companies, and ask them, directly, "Why should I buy your rig?" answers may suprise you! As we have seen in this thread , how a business is run may be the deciding factor.
I'm a real Happy Camper with my New Racer 2K3 - The customer Service I recieved from Nightjumper and the rest of the gang at Jumpshack was amazing, beyond what I could have ever expected from a gear manufacturer. I never could have imagined a Manufacturer bending over backwards and going way out of their way to make sure a customer was absolutely satisfied. I have heard rumors (horror Stories) of Customer Service from some of those manufacturers of the rigs you are considering - Make it a point to include that in your buying decision. Oh, and BTW -- People use the expression "Fits like a Racer" for a reason.


Edited for ideas & content -
Seriously dude, Call the Manufacturers, and to talk to somebody of importance. I'll be you'll be suprised with each call you make!

=========Shaun ==========

[sdctlc 0]

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The fact is there are differences in production costs that dictate the price of the harness container system. That is what i was trying to convey to Pilot Dave by presenting fact. In no way is presenting fact, slandering or slamming another manufacturer.

Pointing out factual differences is not poor selling techniques. One more thing to be clear on as well is the container working 100% of the time. The point is the container system has to work 100% of the time and people seem to shop for the cheapest container when they will spend more on a main which has a higher rate of malfunction. Once again, when the ____ hits the fan i feel more comfortable knowing i spent the extra money for a higher quality product.

Noting specific feature differences is fine, I said that before. Noting your manufacturing thinking for construction and design is fine. Noting that you have X # of flaps and they dont is fine or secondary riser covers fine again, I dont have a problem with noting any of that.

The problem, and the reason this became what it did, is the inference that yours is 100% while others, specifically Wings are not. You may not have meant that but that is what it looked like and that is what many people took it as. I think a Mirage is an outstanding rig that can stand on its merits, I also think there are other fine rigs out there that cost less. The Mirage seems to be accepted as a spendy rig and you even agree to that fact. Of course cost is based on production costs, but saying "we" spend more then "they" do so ours is 100% all the time. Theirs may be good most of the time but why take the chance. That to me is just like saying "ours is good and they have one that is bad"... I had to shake my head again on your latest response becuse you did it again while trying to dig out from the first post.

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[pilotdave 0]

I think if Mirage wants to advertise that their rigs are the safest out there, that's just fine. If they want to say their rigs are better made than wings, that's fine too. I'm sure Sunrise isn't personally offended. But what I'd like to see some data to back up the claims. Seriously, how often do containers fail? I've heard of one getting torn apart during a premature deployment in a sit (dont know what brand), and I've heard of grommets catching lines. What other failures have occured over the past 10 years? (that's a question, not a statement). Have mirages worked 100% of the time? How about wings?

Someone said this thread is gonna hurt sales. Yeah, right. I don't see the appeal that a lot of people do in mirages. They're kinda "pretty boy" rigs, aren't they? (uh oh, did I really say that?
So I dunno. I think all this complaining just makes manufacturers afraid to post on here. I want to hear more from them.

Dave