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vanessalh

To RSL or not to RSL

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You will also decide to cut away when you land in high winds and are being dragged backwards on your back, towards the parking stops in the lot you just landed out in. Wishing you'd disconnected your RSL.


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Have you yet covered canopy collisions, wraps and entanglements in your EP training?



Yeh. I was taught that if it's unavoidable get big (spread arms n legs).]



Jeff, the new thought on an unavoidable collision is to NOT spread arms/legs but to keep tight because with the new razor thin lines being used on many canopies now, going through those lines with arms extended might cause sever lacerations, or worse.
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Jeff, the new thought on an unavoidable collision is to NOT spread arms/legs but to keep tight because with the new razor thin lines being used on many canopies now, going through those lines with arms extended might cause sever lacerations, or worse.



We were taught to get big but what is being said about micro lines does make sense. I will have to ask an instructor at my DZ n see what the go is locally.

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I always figured I'd go for body to body, feet first :P

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Jeff, the new thought on an unavoidable collision is to NOT spread arms/legs but to keep tight because with the new razor thin lines being used on many canopies now, going through those lines with arms extended might cause sever lacerations, or worse.

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How many people do you know that would be able to take their RSL and fully instal it?


Every student I teach. Knowing how the RSL works is part of the A-license requirements in the U.S.

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It's great that I am trying to share with everyone here that I learned something about a simple but dangerous mistake that a RIGGER made and yet all you guys want to do is take the piss out of me.


Congrats on finding it, We are "taking the piss out of you" because:
- You didn't know this stuff already
- You went six months without checking it
- You don't know the rules of your own organization
- You were too lazy to go look it up.
- You bought gear and didn't RTFM
- You made your rigger responsible instead of yourself

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Am I allowed to fix it myself? Am I allowed to pull my reserve pin to reroute my RSL?


What are the Australian rules on that?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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These 2 threads talk about how a skyhook can screw up a good main.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3331658;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4114143;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

In both cases the Collins lanyard disconnected a main riser.

Skyhooks are a far more complicated system than an RSL

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These 2 threads talk about how a skyhook can screw up a good main.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3331658;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4114143;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

In both cases the Collins lanyard disconnected a main riser.

Skyhooks are a far more complicated system than an RSL



At least tell the whole story.

In the first thread the tandem deployed low enough to trigger the AAD. The low deployment is what started the whole thing so why not just blame the AAD.

In the second thread the reserve pack tray was dislodged during opening which was determined to have been loosing up over time due to side loaded openings.

Lets please tell the whole truth and the whole story so the young jumpers who don't know about these incidents don't just read into this that the Skyhook is the devil.

I don't doubt you'll likely respond that they should read these threads - but we all know that a lot people are not going to read these 10 page threads just to get to the truth about these old beaten to death incidents.

I know the Skyhook adds complexity to our rigs but then so does the AAD.

I just wish we could give full disclosure on everything and not use old incident threads to spread fear.

But then that's just me.

.
Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

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In the first thread the tandem deployed low enough to trigger the AAD. The low deployment is what started the whole thing so why not just blame the AAD.



Because the AAD worked as designed. The Skyhook didn't. Fair enough?!
"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

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In the first thread the tandem deployed low enough to trigger the AAD. The low deployment is what started the whole thing so why not just blame the aad


.



In both cases however, if the people involved had had a standard RSL and not a skyhook, it would have been a non-event which most likely never would have shown up in these forums. People need to read those threads and understand that.

Skyhooks can and probably already have saved lives. But the kid in Chicago is alive through sheer luck and it would have been a non-event if he had had a regular RSL. That's what scares me.

People should read those threads and learn. Some may still choose to get a Skyhook and some may not. But to me it's critical that you understand all the issues. And things like if I had a skyhook and accidentally pulled low and had an AAD fire to make me tow a reserve pc behind my good main - I'm not sure whether the best plan would be to try and get good grips on my reserve pc to make sure my main doesn't accidentally get disconnected or whether I should cutaway and hope the skyhook gets my reserve to come out in time. Somehow I would want to make extremely certain that the Collins lanyard doesn't turn my main into junk 200 feet off the ground like it did for the Chicago kid. I haven't thought about what to do because I don't have one, but its far more important to come up with a plan for that if you have a Skyhook than if you don't. What can possibly happen is different with a skyhook than a regular rig.

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Skyhooks are just like every other device added to a basic rig that is intended to reduce risk: their presence means there are additional failure modes that can cause harm that wouldn't have occurred in their absence. But skydiving technology is no different than any other area of technology. For example, there are unambiguous cases of air bags and seat belts in automobiles resulting in fatalities that would not have occurred had they not been present.

The fact that such incidents have occurred (and will continue occur) is not the relevant consideration. Seat belt and airbags have saved far more lives than they have taken: the data is unequivocal. Their value is not diminished by noting some fatalities or injuries occurred because they were installed; one has to look at the data on both sides of the ledger.

The relevant question here should be whether Skyhooks (or RSLs, or AAD, etc) result in a significant overall reduction in risk due to their presence/use, compared to their absence. While I don't know that this is the case with respect to the Skyhook, that is only because I (personally) have not seen the data comparing saves (and injury reductions) to those cases where the presence of a Skyhook was a factor in an injury or fatality. But ultimately, that is the analysis one must to do to determine whether a skyhook is truly a valuable safety device, as opposed to a device that just trades one risk for another equal risk.

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I agree. I do think people need to make sure and plan procedures for their specific gear. If you have an rsl plan to disconnect it if you have 2-out or are landing in water. If you have a skyhook and have a reserve pc out with a good main for whatever reason ( low pull/aad fire, reserve container ripped after a hard opening, knocked a pin loose on exit or whatever - your procedures might should be different than someone without one. I bet 75 percent of people out there might have never considered how they might should change their plans depending on their particular gear.

Know your gear intimately. I'm not saying a skyhook is bad. I'm not saying an rsl is bad. I am saying that in certain situations you need to have different procedures if you have one than if you don't. And the time to think all of that stuff through is on the ground and talking to your rigger and your instructors and learning your gear.

The skyhook is a reasonably complicated setup. If you have one and have never seen how it works get your rigger to show you at your next reserve repack at the latest. Understand the pros the cons and learn as much as you can about it both good and bad. Then think about all the possible malfunctions and issues and come up with a plan on the ground. The last place you want to be having to improvise is at a 1000 feet in a sketchy situation after a low pull. Have a plan. Know your gear. So many skydivers have no clue how their gear works. And that can kill you. KNOW YOUR GEAR.

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>The relevant question here should be whether Skyhooks (or RSLs, or AAD, etc) result
>in a significant overall reduction in risk due to their presence/use, compared to their
>absence.

Exactly. And overall they seem to do more good than harm. But they are complex enough that they are getting very close to that line. (IMO of course)

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Skyhooks can and probably already have saved lives. But the kid in Chicago is alive through sheer luck and it would have been a non-event if he had had a regular RSL. That's what scares me.



That "kid" (who was well in his 40's) is alive because he got lucky plain and simple. His container had separated from the harness and he was trailing his reserve PC. When he went to make a turn the colin's lanyard disconnected his riser.

Had that gear not have a skyhook who knows what would have happened. Maybe the reserve would have extracted at 250 and went into a downplane??

I for one am glad Jim is ok, but he was lucky. He did his EP's "wrong" according to what was taught to him, but it quite possibly saved his life.

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Thread revival notice!

On Sunday my wife's docile and dependable Pilot 150 decided to open in a fairly violent spin. She made an immediate decision to cut away and got one handle in each hand as trained. She was unable to pull hard enough to cutaway with one hand, so she used two. That left her fumbling for the other one next. She found it in plenty of time, but it felt like a long time to her.

She has never had an RSL and never saw the need for one despite my gentle advice over the last few years. Today she is asking me about MARDS and how they work. She's never shown any interest before. I expect she will be ordering a new container soon.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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No line twists, just a high rate of rotation and a heavy load on the loops. She is no wimp and is in good shape. And I know for a fact that the cables were lubricated in the past month because I did it.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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I've had the same situation with one hand on each handle and could not get the cut away cable to budge with the handle un-velcroed. When I went to both hands on the cut away handle (like trained), I stared at the reserve handle and cut away. My RSL was connected by the way and beat me to my reserve pull .... and I was right on the pull.
Life is short ... jump often.

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When I first got a 3-ring (yes, I'm old), I practiced with one hand on each handle.

Come time for my first cutaway, and I find myself with both hands on the cutaway, then I went to the reserve. No issues. Did it a couple more times.

So now I assume I'm going to use both hands on each handle. I have an RSL; I figure if more experienced people can cut away too late to then pull the handle themselves, I might end up there, too.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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No line twists, just a high rate of rotation and a heavy load on the loops. She is no wimp and is in good shape. And I know for a fact that the cables were lubricated in the past month because I did it.



I am a fan of the Skyhook, I have them on both of my rigs. I would be concerned about why she could not pull the cutaway handle. Mard, RSL, no RSL is moot if she cannot pull the cutaway handle, even if she can pull it with both hands.

Not criticizing, just thinking some research into the cutaway issue is appropriate in addition to the RSL & MARD discussion. Maybe using a hanging harness set up where she can use her gear, including the risers.

Derek V

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My reserve ride was at jump 21 with no aad or rsl on a rental rig and after jettisoning main, the d ring went from armpit to hip in a second. It can be difficult to peel the pillow in a high stress environment with one hand while you are spinning. I almost spent the rest of my life looking for metal.

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popsjumper

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With the exception of CRW, there is no good reason for a modern skydiver not to utilize an RSL.



Camera flyers may have some input on that???



2 chops on rigs with skyhooks, no problems at all. If you think you might need to get gear clear before deploying a reserve I highly recommend redesigning your camera setup.

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Hooknswoop

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No line twists, just a high rate of rotation and a heavy load on the loops. She is no wimp and is in good shape. And I know for a fact that the cables were lubricated in the past month because I did it.



I am a fan of the Skyhook, I have them on both of my rigs. I would be concerned about why she could not pull the cutaway handle. Mard, RSL, no RSL is moot if she cannot pull the cutaway handle, even if she can pull it with both hands.

Not criticizing, just thinking some research into the cutaway issue is appropriate in addition to the RSL & MARD discussion. Maybe using a hanging harness set up where she can use her gear, including the risers.

Derek V



Derek, I think you will find that the position of the arm when the hand in on the cutaway handle is part of the problem. There is very little leverage.
Modern gear cutaway systems are tested at twice the MOW and are not supposed to be greater than 22 lbs.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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