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vanessalh

To RSL or not to RSL

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mjosparky

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No line twists, just a high rate of rotation and a heavy load on the loops. She is no wimp and is in good shape. And I know for a fact that the cables were lubricated in the past month because I did it.



I am a fan of the Skyhook, I have them on both of my rigs. I would be concerned about why she could not pull the cutaway handle. Mard, RSL, no RSL is moot if she cannot pull the cutaway handle, even if she can pull it with both hands.

Not criticizing, just thinking some research into the cutaway issue is appropriate in addition to the RSL & MARD discussion. Maybe using a hanging harness set up where she can use her gear, including the risers.

Derek V



Derek, I think you will find that the position of the arm when the hand in on the cutaway handle is part of the problem. There is very little leverage.
Modern gear cutaway systems are tested at twice the MOW and are not supposed to be greater than 22 lbs.

Cutaway force is not part of tbe TSO testing standard. Any limit/testing would be manufacturer specific.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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Terry,

The following are excerpts from AS-8015B. This is used to test for TSO-C23d. It is not addressed in PIA TS135.

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4.3.2. 2

Main Canopy Release, Human Factors Tests: The main canopy release, if used, shall be ground tested in a suspended harness1 by a representative group of no less than 6 male and 6 female subjects; (12 tests total). They shall be able to operate the release device without any undue difficulty.



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4.3.2.5

Main Canopy Release, Actuation Force Tests: While in a suspended harness (with additional ballast as required to equal twice the maximum operating weight), a force at the main canopy release handle, or equivalent (if used), of not less than 5 lbf (22.2 N) (applied in the direction requiring the least force), nor more than 22 lbf (97.9 N) (applied in the direction requiring the greatest force under normal design operations), shall result in a positive and quick release of the main canopy on all tests. A minimum of 12 pull tests is required.



My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Oops, forgot that.:$ Sorry. I spent 14 years working on TS135.:) Part of the reason it's not in 135 is because main risers and cutaway handles are not approved components. Since they aren't and manufacturers have little control over what non-approved components are used it was removed. If made approved components a rigger would be needed to hook up a three ring and need to document it. Other factors that can contribute to pull force from jump to jump make the testing in 8015b somewhat meanless.


Could be argued not the right decision.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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mjosparky


Derek, I think you will find that the position of the arm when the hand in on the cutaway handle is part of the problem. There is very little leverage.
Modern gear cutaway systems are tested at twice the MOW and are not supposed to be greater than 22 lbs.

Another HUGE factor I see in this, Sparky? It's that people are pulling in THE WRONG DIRECTION!

Sorry to shout, but I feel it's the root of many "hard pull" problems. As you well know, you should always pull any handle in the direction the cable housing runs. On almost all modern sport rigs, this means straight down, towards your feet. But I see so many people being trained and/or practicing to "punch" the handles directly away from their bodies, like they were boxing.

This incorrect motion adds up to a 90 degree kink in the cable as it exits the housing, making the pull force much greater.

I've used the 3 ring release system to cutaway over a dozen times and never had a hard pull or had to use both hands. I know there are other factors that can increase the pull forces, such as line twist, poor construction tolerances, etc. but pulling in the wrong direction is an easy factor to eliminate, right now. I'll go as far as to say this. If you have an instructor teaching you to punch straight out from your body, that instructor is wrong, and you can tell them I said so, respectfully.

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Another HUGE factor I see in this, Sparky? It's that people are pulling in THE WRONG DIRECTION!



I agree, I had someone drop a rig off for repack. She was a small girl and a newly licensed skydiver that had not jumped over the winter. Needed a repack and thought I'd let her pull ripcord to practice emergency procedures.

She struggled and couldn't pull it. I could see the problem that she was trying to pull upward and not peeling the velcro. I stopped her struggles and spoke about peeling the velcro first and pulling down on reserve handle. The 2nd time she pulled it no problem.

I suggested that she go to DZ and speak with instructor and practice in hanging harness. Good thing she did as during the refresher training she only really remembered her single handle gear emergency procedures, but her licensed gear is a two handle system. After a bit of retraining she was good to go.

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skytribe


She struggled and couldn't pull it. I could see the problem that she was trying to pull upward and not peeling the velcro. I stopped her struggles and spoke about peeling the velcro first and pulling down on reserve handle. The 2nd time she pulled it no problem.

Wow, great story! :o This was a serious accident waiting to happen.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to make a difference in our sport. :)

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jumpwally

I wonder how many no pull low pull incidents happened for this exact reason,,,,sadly we'll never know.....

I'm always shocked by people who know so little of how the gear they are saving their lives with really works. I've always said having a little bit of mechanical smarts goes a long way in this sport.

It's something we as instructors need to work harder to remedy.

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skytribe

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Another HUGE factor I see in this, Sparky? It's that people are pulling in THE WRONG DIRECTION!



I agree, I had someone drop a rig off for repack. She was a small girl and a newly licensed skydiver that had not jumped over the winter. Needed a repack and thought I'd let her pull ripcord to practice emergency procedures.

She struggled and couldn't pull it. I could see the problem that she was trying to pull upward and not peeling the velcro. I stopped her struggles and spoke about peeling the velcro first and pulling down on reserve handle. The 2nd time she pulled it no problem.

I suggested that she go to DZ and speak with instructor and practice in hanging harness. Good thing she did as during the refresher training she only really remembered her single handle gear emergency procedures, but her licensed gear is a two handle system. After a bit of retraining she was good to go.



.................................................................................

I had a similar experience with the owner of a major West Coast DZ.
Initially she struggled to pull a soft ripcord handle ..... until I explained the "peel and punch" process.
She thanked me profusely for the lesson.

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That's why it's a good idea to "practice a cutaway" when your reserve is due. Well, one of the many reasons.
Many hanging harnesses at DZs have the velcro that is simply too worn out to give a good idea of the force required for the actual "peel" part on new/well-maintained gear.
On the other hand, peeling your velcro constantly on your rig would also put too much wear and tear on your gear (IMHO), so I think doing it once for a reserve repack time is a great compromise. Especially now that configurations with two soft pillows are getting more and more common even for new jumpers (and I think that's OK, pillows have some advantages over metal D handles, both in terms of comfort and safety, especially for smaller jumpers... but they require that extra step and a little more "work" to be pulled).
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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Initially she struggled to pull a soft ripcord handle ..... until I explained the "peel and punch" process.
She thanked me profusely for the lesson.



But of course everyone wants the soft handles to look like the cool guys and you can have shit embroidered on them but heaven forbid you take 5 minutes to understand how to use them.

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skytribe


But of course everyone wants the soft handles to look like the cool guys and you can have shit embroidered on them but heaven forbid you take 5 minutes to understand how to use them.



Well, it's not just to "look cool", I really wanted soft pillows because I'm a small jumper and the damn metal handle was constantly pushing in my rib cage when sitting in the plane, moving around, bending, etc. Not to mention that the rigid handle can "pop out" of the harness more easily, or make the harness "rigid" in a weird and uncofortable way, I don't know how to explain that better, but I came to hate it on my old vector, whereas the soft handle bends inside the harness, hence for small harnesses it simply fits better, stays there better and it's more comfortable, IMHO.
Also, less snag hazards during RW exits.
Honestly, I think the 2 soft pillows to be a better setup for generic skydives (once exception would be crw, I think).


100% agree on taking the 5 minutes of extra time to understand how this slightly changes your EPs, though, no excuses for that.
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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Di0

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But of course everyone wants the soft handles to look like the cool guys and you can have shit embroidered on them but heaven forbid you take 5 minutes to understand how to use them.



Well, it's not just to "look cool", I really wanted soft pillows because I'm a small jumper and the damn metal handle was constantly pushing in my rib cage when sitting in the plane, moving around, bending, etc. Not to mention that the rigid handle can "pop out" of the harness more easily, or make the harness "rigid" in a weird and uncofortable way, I don't know how to explain that better, but I came to hate it on my old vector, whereas the soft handle bends inside the harness, hence for small harnesses it simply fits better, stays there better and it's more comfortable, IMHO.
Also, less snag hazards during RW exits.
Honestly, I think the 2 soft pillows to be a better setup for generic skydives (once exception would be crw, I think).


100% agree on taking the 5 minutes of extra time to understand how this slightly changes your EPs, though, no excuses for that.
The hard handles are only a problem if you let them be. Your reasons for not liking the hard handles may be valid for you but not for the vast majority of jumpers.
Soft handles make it harder to grasp and hold onto while pulling. Jumpers with small hands and/or less hand strength have trouble maintaining their grip. They also have a history of tucking under the main lift web. Being made of fabric they are harder to identify by feel when covered by jumpsuit material or heaven forbid canopy material.
I have always preferred metal handles on both sides. jmo

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp55/mjosparky/Equipment/Handles1.jpg

Edit to add, RSLs save lives.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Deimian

I find the Basik solution a good compromise between both things. Take a look at the cutaway handle:

http://para-leasing-nord.de/Adv2.jpg


Pity that they are not in the market anymore.



I can live with that, I just don't see the reason when a metal handle is readily available.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Di0

***
But of course everyone wants the soft handles to look like the cool guys and you can have shit embroidered on them but heaven forbid you take 5 minutes to understand how to use them.



Well, it's not just to "look cool", I really wanted soft pillows because I'm a small jumper and the damn metal handle was constantly pushing in my rib cage when sitting in the plane, moving around, bending, etc. Not to mention that the rigid handle can "pop out" of the harness more easily, or make the harness "rigid" in a weird and uncofortable way, I don't know how to explain that better, but I came to hate it on my old vector, whereas the soft handle bends inside the harness, hence for small harnesses it simply fits better, stays there better and it's more comfortable, IMHO.
Also, less snag hazards during RW exits.
Honestly, I think the 2 soft pillows to be a better setup for generic skydives (once exception would be crw, I think).


100% agree on taking the 5 minutes of extra time to understand how this slightly changes your EPs, though, no excuses for that.


You might be interested to check this thread about a metal handle that doesn't stick out as far. I have had to pull it and really like it.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4250322#4250322
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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Also gloves and climates other than DeLand or Perris. Some colder DZs ban pillow reserve handles, and I jump with gloves regardless of the outside temperature, as do roughly 50% other jumpers I know. I prefer having a D-handle for my reserve, went with that for my custom rig. Racers are actually still available in double-D handle configuration, I kinda wish it'd be the case with more rigs out there, I'd probably get it if it were an option for mine.
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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mathrick

Also gloves and climates other than DeLand or Perris. Some colder DZs ban pillow reserve handles, and I jump with gloves regardless of the outside temperature, as do roughly 50% other jumpers I know. I prefer having a D-handle for my reserve, went with that for my custom rig. Racers are actually still available in double-D handle configuration, I kinda wish it'd be the case with more rigs out there, I'd probably get it if it were an option for mine.



I think is you request them most of the majors will do it.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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I know Parachute Systems offers a number of options

Cutaway: Puff or Loop
Reserve: Puff, Loop or Hard

I recently ordered a new rig with a metal D-ring reserve handle and RSL.
I have jumped a soft reserve handle for 3 years now but I decided on my first custom rig to go to a D-ring as I know I will never be cool but would like to give myself every chance when I need it

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mathrick

Also gloves and climates other than DeLand or Perris. Some colder DZs ban pillow reserve handles, and I jump with gloves regardless of the outside temperature, as do roughly 50% other jumpers I know.



Quite right. A hard pull, for whatever reason on a reserve with a soft handle could be an issue.

The largest issue are jumpers who have little fundamental understanding or inquisitive interest in the functioning of their equipment. This is not limited to skydiving as all sports have this problem. Some people just want to "do it". The maintenance, function and operation of the equipment are distant priorities in the total context of the sport.

There are skiers and snowboarders who wax their bases once a year whether they need it or not. Scuba divers that rinse their gear every five years or so, etc. etc.

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