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jimmyh

16 Year Old Deathcamper

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When Chris Muller was 15, he took off in his hang glider from the Golden launch with his Dad Willi for his first cross country flight.



Dude..... you and I (and many others) know that Chris was an exception among mortals!!



have you met Clair?
how does she differ?

-----

when this thread started, I had a negative image of Jimmy. but he showed amazing composure under a full on assault. he also responded to solid logic. he obviously has thought through a lot of this.

I do not know the conditions behind his training, so I can't actually comment. it appears quite wrong, but I've tried to keep an open mind. personally, I don't wish to train ANYBODY. that's just me.

the hard, emotional, unwavering opinions to shut Jimmy down, without knowing all the facts, reminds me of the attitudes of NPS rangers.

it appears the critics have won in this case, thanks to a clear law. something the NPS lacks.
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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yimmyh, you ar an idiot..... full stop


*playing devil's advocate*
what if she had purchased a base rig and jumped anywhere without training ??
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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maybe i`m not alowed to post here about technical/only base jump threads (because of my low skydiving experience and NO base experience)...

to make a long story short..
how do u plan to teach her a few esential skills without skydiving?

- tracking... i think base jump is not only to jump from a "safe" object... in the future ur student will need this skill

- canopy control (and fast reaction/reflexes in dangerous situations) - with 45 second of canopy flight on every jump i dont think the student can learn something... she will be focused only to land

winds - if she jump at that "safe" object with same winds jump by jump, how can she learn about jumping in different winds

setups - if she jump the same setup at every jump at the "safe" object

etichs - no comment

someday she will jump alone... someday she will need those skills
that are my questions

PS... sorry for my silly english


-------------------------
"jump, have fun, pull"

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Aaaahhh but its worth it.

At least that is what Bubba Butt is saying.

MMMmmmmmmm - white boy jailbait.

Come over here and create a fluid removing vacuum around Momma's . . . . . .

Some people never get it!!!

:S
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

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<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>

:o

Oh ho ho ha ha he hi ho......................

EXCEPT ONE OBVIOUS THING LOVE CHOPS!!!!!!!!!!

Most of us don't exclude the 52 training steps you are too bored to include when we train our students!!!!!!! Like step 1 - ETHICS. Step 2 - there is no step 2 - you should not be stepping yet. You should still be crawling at this stage. Crawl before you can walk. Step 3 - still not there yet. You have to stand up now. Step 4 - yep, now we are getting somewhere. We can step now!!!! See, that's not so hard!!!!!!

Suggestion - don't try to explain yourself Jimmy. Just go out and have fun the way you want.

The mere fact that you are trying to make a 10th explanation of what happened indicates that either you have doubt in your mind or you are concerned about the response you have received from the wider BASE community. Guilty conscience. Can't deal with it. Ner ner ner ner ner ner. B|

Redeem yourself brother, for the Lord can save your soul. Henceforth you may truly become what you desire to be. A respectable BASE jumper.

xoxoxoxo

:)
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

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Most of us don't exclude the 52 training steps you are too bored to include when we train our students!!!!!!!



I seriously hope you take BASE jumping a bit more serious than this thread. if you bring the same emotion to hucking off a tower as I just read, dude, you're asking to get hurt!

stop, and think.
a few years ago USPA changed its model from a huge, all-encompassing FJC to the ISP. it trains students progressively, as they need the knowledge.

it may be wise, it may not.

Tom A., Apex, etc. teach an all-encompassing FJC.

Jimmy seems to get a committment from his students to a series of training sessions. he actually can use the famous "building block" approach, and does not have to unlearn bad habits.

neither model alone will prepare any student for any eventuality. (wingsuit BASE anyone?)

sure, I can find flaws in EVERYONE's training regime. and Jimmy's has obvious weeknesses. and until I actually saw him teaching, I WOULD NOT recommend it.

still, I prefer his calm rational style on this forum. that is what I want at the exit point. not incensed emotion. (or for that matter, dealing when with the authorities...)
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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I just heard Clair is a few weeks away from joining the US Marines. Good luck with the training and take care if they station you out in the gulf.

Let's jump together when you get back.

ian

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Do you all tell the people you teach, "you are going to die or get hurt doing this. But go ahead anyway?"



Actually, yes, I do.

The very first thing I do when meeting with new students is sit them down, explain the risks to them, tell them that there is a very good chance they will be seriously injured if they pursue BASE seriously, and then have them write a letter to their family explaining that if they die, they were jumping of their own free will, for their own reasons.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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...trains students progressively...teach an all-encompassing FJC.



There is a well respected Canadian BASE instructor who has been teaching a "progressive step" BASE course (with AFF-like level system) for many years.

The major problem with the "step" structure in BASE is that the student can choose to do just the first level or two, and then get their hands on gear and go chuck themselves off stuff. Unlike skydiving (where the student has to resume their training, no matter where they show up next), in BASE there is a large chance for unregulated jumping by the student.

Also, since good BASE training objects are usually a bit further away than your DZ, it's harder for the student to come back again and again to finish the training. It makes sense to run the progression all at once, in a comprehensive course, because it puts a great burden on the student to expect them to travel a thousand miles or more every weekend to do the next step or three.

In general, if you could find a student who was local to a good training object, and would commit to not jumping without the instructor until the end of the training program, I think a stepped progression would be ideal. It would give the student more time to think and digest each step. But in the real world, it's hard (not impossible, see above) to actually implement this kind of program.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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<<<<<<>>>>>>>

Thank you for your worldy advice.

Do you think I take it seriously? Let me give you some clues. I developed and spent six years in the role of Safety Officer of one of the more prominent BASE associations in the world!!!! A number of technical articles around the planet are penned as a result of my seriousness. Quite a few jumpers have been trained by myself, some quite prominent. Assuming the role of "fun police" has adversly affected some of my relationships in the BASE community. But that is the nature of the role. It is NOT to encourage death/accidents just to keep friends. Living colleagues are better than dead friends. IMHO

BTW - Have you seen a dead body that has been badly distorted by the combination of terminal and a wall? Have you risked your life trying to locate the body of a jumper in the vain hope that (s)he may be alive? Have you had to tell a mother that her beloved son has died? Have you had to coordinate cliff rescues because some jumper decided to drug out beforehand or just go to step 10 of their development instead of progressing in a logical sequential manner? Have you had to deal with incessant media enquiries following a BASE accident? I HAVE.

Do I have an idea why all these events happened? Damned well I do. Cutting out steps is one of the main factors.

DO I TAKE IT SERIOUSLY? - VERY.

<<<<<>>>>>>

Progressively???? Like steps. Do you mean like, step 1 - altitude awareness and basic body position. Step 2 . . . etc. That sounds like a great idea!!!!! Isn't that what I was alluding to????

<<<<<>>>>>>

If you were the parent of an injured/dead person, I am sure you would appreciate someone coming to your door and blankly saying. Your child is dead. Its all cool. (S)he was relaxed at the exit point just before going in. Never mind that your child missed a few learning opportunities prior to going on. The calmness was important.

Every now and again, people need reality to slap them in the face BEFORE the consequences become too great. Being nicey, nicey all the time does not work for everyone. Ask JJ, Spacy Tracy, etc. The "incensed emotion" is a product of the total disregard for common sence, BASE ethics, and human life itself. "It was worth it". Come on. That is weally warped thinking!

<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>

You are right. He does not have to unlearn any bad habits. But the problem is, he actually may be teaching them from the in the first place!!! Lack of respect for human life is one of those bad habits!!!!

I have made no real comment on his training program. I don't know the details. It may be wonderful. I am VERY concerned about his devil may care attitude of "it was with it" when referring to the question of how he would feel if his "experiment" as he called it, failed. No loss of human life is worth it when the end result is not beneficial to the advancement of mankind and has known results/outcomes already. This would be a simple case of repeating mistakes. I would not want my child ANYWHERE near him!!!!! You Sir, may think differently. Would you allow your kids to be trained by Jimmy? Honestly. Would you???????????

BTW - could you explain to me how the experiment / it was worth it angle is acceptable human behaviour??? I don't really understand your stance on that?

p.s. I suggest you look up the word "SARCASM". You may have a clearer understanding of what/why I have written!!!!!
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

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Perhaps this one might be good to split off, but I do think the face of BASE training will change in the future. We SHOULD be constantly refining and evolving... that's what the learning process is all about.

It's also where a knowledge of history is important. What you may think is a good idea may have already been tried in the past, only to find that there were unexpected side effects that ultimately made it a poor fit for the BASE environment. Spectra lines is one example.

In any event, as far as training goes, I actually think Clint (in cooperation with Jimmy & Marta at Apex I believe) at Skydive Moab has the right idea and approach. I don't know how far he's gotten with it, but I do know that he was working on a skydiving training progression specifically tailored to aspiring BASE jumpers. It's a 50-jump course if I'm not mistaken.

With that sort of focused, skill-intensive, approach, I could easily see one of his students being as prepared, if not better prepared, for BASE jumping than just a standard skydiver with 200-300 jumps.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

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The mere fact that you are trying to make a 10th explanation of what happened indicates that either you have doubt in your mind or you are concerned about the response you have received from the wider BASE community. Guilty conscience. Can't deal with it. Ner ner ner ner ner ner.



You forgot (at least) one other possible inference: he is simply responding to the comments of others. If after his first explanation no one else had commented, he probably would not have offered any further "explanations." But people HAVE commented, and Jimmy has simply responded. That's called dialogue, and it's supposedly what forums like this are for. If Jimmy hadn't responded to any of the comments, people would be on here screaming, "where's Jimmy? Answer our questions!" So, regardless of whether you agree or disagree with what Jimmy is (now apparently WAS) doing, it is improper to conclude from the fact that Jimmy HAS responded that he now has "doubts" about what he is doing or is "concerned" about the responses or that he has a "guilty conscience" about it. As far as I can see, Jimmy has simply been responding to the many questions and comments people have asked and made, and for the most part (the chest-pounding remarks in response to suggestions of tar and feathering aside), I think he has done so with a great deal of patience and composure.

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Agree totally Tom.

What I am saying is that people need learn in a logical / sequential manner.

If a person decides to go it alone or go from never seeing a parachute to wingsuit jumping severly underhung cliffs in 10 jumps, that is NOT learning in steps.

IMHO - jumping without ANY prior parachuting experience is not the best overall teaching strategy.

When you teach your course (I'd love to sit in one day), I bet you teach along the lines of:

1 - ethics
2 - show me your previous parachuting experience and show me that you have at least picked up XY skills
3 - equipment & configuration
4 - short/no delays with basic boxman /equivalent body position
5 - longer delays, BOC.

etc
etc

And I think you are correct. It is better to learn more in a thorough course that will prepare you better for the real world. Purely because jumpers tend to be independant spirits.

All the best.

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

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I AGREE TOTALLY

:)
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

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Hello Clair,

What would bother me in your place is, after read Jimmys responses about his motivation, you seem to be just a "proof of concept" (crashing dummy or just a mouse somewhere in a laboratory) that "IT" is doable. I wouldn't like to be that.

I personally have nothing against jumping off stuff without skydiving (where I think it is a bad idea). Fact is, there is nothing better to learn to fly your body than skydiving. So in BASE you will not progress that fast, and you have to be reallyreally patient before doing the bigger jumps, means evolving in this sport. (And finding yourself beside a big cliff, it is really hard no say no, cause you can't fly your body there is the where the risky part lies..)

Third, to say someone succeed doing BASE is a bit big... I think noone of us can say we succeeded doing it (except those who stopped jumping alive).

all the best
t.

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The rest of us (yourself included Jimmy) have experienced them on skydives where we had just a LITTLE bit of time to recognize the issue and then deal with it.

When it happened on a BASE jump (and yes I've had 180s with multiple line twists on a tower), I'd seen and dealt with it before and had a bit of an instinctual response to it.



Which, for the vast majority of skydivers, would be to start kicking out of them. I'm guessing that, except on the really tall stuff where you're a mile and a half from the face, "start kicking out" is not what the folks here are going to suggest as a first response to line twists.

Skydiving teaches responses. Some good, some bad for the BASE environment. I've seen a lot of BD video that would argue that the response for line twists is solidly among the latter. I think skydiving can be valuable preparation for BASE, but one should understand its limitations.

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I'm guessing that, except on the really tall stuff where you're a mile and a half from the face, "start kicking out" is not what the folks here are going to suggest as a first response to line twists.



Absolutely true. It does depend on the object. In the case of an imminent strike, you're going to want to reach above the twists and try to get turned around first before dealing withthe twists themselves.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

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DO I TAKE IT SERIOUSLY? - VERY.



first off, in all seriousness, thank you for your efforts, caring, and passion.

my point is, the equivalent of yelling or screaming at people doesn't change them. sure it can affect their behavior, for awhile. if you wish to change their thinking, it is a poor tactic.

surely, when faced with the various stessfull situations you described, you acted calmly and quite focused. especially dealing with family members. it can't be easy and probably caused sleepless nights.

I just think it would be appropriate to show the readers of this forum the same respect. (oh, and later posts have done that. again, thank you.)

Quote


BTW - could you explain to me how the experiment / it was worth it angle is acceptable human behaviour??? I don't really understand your stance on that?



if experimentation is unacceptable, does that mean you don't respect Carl, Mike Pelkey, or the others?

I don't believe THAT.
I'd rather think various innovators have been your friends.

as far as children jumping go, I'm happy that Jimmy has chosen to stop training them.

that alone makes this thread very productive.
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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if experimentation is unacceptable, does that mean you don't respect Carl, Mike Pelkey, or the others?



There is a very large difference between experimenting upon oneself (putting only one's one life at risk), and experimenting upon others (risking others health and safety). The divide grows yet larger when considering minors as the subject for your experimentation.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I think this might be the last thing I have to say on this particular thread...

The "it's and experiment thing"

Again, to refer to the Bill Booth tandem waiver video that thousands of people sign at the DZ that I work at, many of which are parents sitting next to their sixteen year old children.
(keep in mind we still show the old waiver video, don't know if it's been changed)
Bill Booth: "by signing this document ("Test jumper agreement") you agreeing to become part of a study to prove the safety and effectiveness of the tandem jumping system. In the future, the document you may be asked to sign may be different, after a rule change by the FAA."

I told Claire and her mom about my theories about teaching non skydivers to BASE jump. I explained my proposed progression and when I thought skydiving classes would become an absolute neccessity. I told them I had yet to impliment these "theories" or as some might call them cocimaimy ideas, and in that sense Clair was agreeing to become a "test case" "experimental jumper" "guinea pig" whatever. I just call things what they are, and for me Clair was an experiment, one that she, for reasons of her own, was willing to be a part of.

THe experiment is over, cuz after legal advice, I realize I don't want to go to court in a "State of California vs. Dumbass" case of manslaughter.

But if calling her an experiment and saying we'd see what happens makes me an asshole so be it. I was just using similar language to what Bill Booth used.

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THe experiment is over, cuz after legal advice, I realize I don't want to go to court in a "State of California vs. Dumbass" case of manslaughter.


Do she have a rig at her own?
could she keep going "testjumping"
are you sure she wont go solo by her self now?
what have you advised her to do from now on?(get back in 2 years?)

sorry Jimmy but not chekking up on this before any actions are dumb...B|

Im happy you let go of it(i dont care your reasson just that you do so),now go out and make some cool video which your good atB|

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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Do she have a rig at her own?
could she keep going "testjumping"
are you sure she wont go solo by her self now?



If I recall correctly from the beginnings of this discussion, she does not own gear, and does not know how to pack it. With that in mind, I think the risk that she'll go chuck herself off something alone is fairly low.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I told Claire and her mom about my theories about teaching non skydivers to BASE jump. I explained my proposed progression and when I thought skydiving classes would become an absolute neccessity. I told them I had yet to impliment these "theories" or as some might call them cocimaimy ideas, and in that sense Clair was agreeing to become a "test case" "experimental jumper" "guinea pig" whatever. I just call things what they are, and for me Clair was an experiment, one that she, for reasons of her own, was willing to be a part of.



While I don't agree with these methods of teaching, I don't view Jimmy's use of "test-jumper", "experiment" or whatever as a semantic error or crass, devil-may-care attitude. I actually find the blunt honesty refreshing. And probably pretty effective for a 16 year old and her parents.

Also, for whatever it's worth, when Jimmy's had the time and has been able to sit down and really answer our questions, I think he's done so and done a pretty good job of it. Better than the one-liners or short quips all over this thread. Remember this when you're wondering why he hasn't responded immediately.

Lastly...guess what! He changed his mind. And he didn't do it because of emotion or volume. Some people cautioned him about the legal ramifications, he sought advice and made a wise decision. He deserves credit for that much.

No need to bookmark this thread. It will come back to life when Clair turns 18.
-C.

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