16 Year Old Deathcamper

[base736 0]

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it is hypocritical to sit there is judgment and say "you are wrong" when you do something that others think are wrong

Not if what the other guy/gal is doing is actually wrong, whereas what I'm doing is merely misunderstood.



I agree with you 100%. I would find it ironic that BASE jumpers so frequently feel they have a right to set danger standards for others (age, experience, and "the good of the sport" being irrelevant in my opinion) if I weren't profoundly disappointed instead.

[wwarped 0]

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Jimmy,

I totally agree with you on that one. There are so many things that parents are allowing their children to do that could result in serious injury or death and nothing is thought of it. It’s just that BASE and Skydiving are not as mainstream as other things like surfing, great example, so they are looked at differently. People see jumping out of a plane or off an object as crazy but not a huge wave and the undertow that could easily slam you into the ground and drown you.

I knew a guy who was doing motocross in high school when he was 16.

no, surfing & motocross are BAD examples. they compare poorly to BASE.

initiates to surfing are first taught to swim, then paddle, and maybe some balancing lessons on the beach.

motocross riders first develop their skills on relatively flat land.

in both situations, the student gets to perform their activity in a very controlled and safe environment.

and youths will literally spend all their free time pursuing these sports. compare their time on bike or board to anyone's under canopy.

while I'm betting Jimmy did his best, I'm not convinced a "safe" BASE environment exists, anywhere.

-----
and gender should not play any role in a discussion regarding her abilities. it actually may help Clair as teenage BOYS tend to act more recklessly.

gender plays a role only if Jimmy is attracted to her. I'll defer to Tom's post.

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[justathought 0]

I just feel recently there has been a large increase of people into the sport that have not done things by the book but as soon as they get a few jumps and a few gainers under their belt start to spout ethics and rules about how to do things.

Some people have done everything possible to maintain the correct way to do things, but get lambasted by people for being too anal or being too controlling. BASE is such a close and personal sport that one persons way may not be another persons way but does not deserve the negativity that it gets as its deemed incorrect.

we have no rules

we have no governing body

we all jump the way we want to

if someone upsets you in the way they jump then dont jump with them and dont invite them to stay at your house when they are local.

If you are happy with the way you carry yourself and the way you jump then why bother getting upset about what people are doing around you.

If people are burning your object and not giving a fuck about ethics then why not leave your object alone and go jump something else. It is they that will end up looking like cunts for shutting the object down and have karma eventually kicking them.

As Carl said, the whole world is jumpable, and there is much out there. Getting upset about specifics is taking away the beauty of this sport from you personally. Fuck the people without respect, the people with respect will always find a way to be true to the sport. Leave the rest to their own games, eventually it goes wrong for them.

Trying to stop people getting hurt for "the good of the sport" is a lost cause nowadays. Too many people, too many under prepared people. We can not control this anymore. This beast is out of control. No matter what you say to people, the BASE world is changing and its a time to choose what part you want to play in it.

And although perhaps in bad form and will upset people, I have to agree with this statement

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Talk about bad publicity for BASE: quite often the media is there to take pictures when "the best BASE jumpers in the world" go in right in front of them. Why would anyone represent a sport in a positive light when the "best" keep dieing from preventable disasters

Although certain people did amazing things for the BASE world, they actually did give bad publicity too through their highly publicized deaths. Having “world respected” or “worlds best” in a death report rather than “some guy from xxxxx” just showed the world that highly skilled people die doing this, so why cant their son / daughter die too?

In the end, fuck the politics, and lets go back to basics, its getting too much like a the DZ

[base736 0]

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In the end, fuck the politics, and lets go back to basics, its getting too much like a the DZ

Perhaps "Getting your panties in a wad" should be a separate forum under "Related Sports"?
Edit to add: It really is too bad that you're posting anonymously, though, not just for those who disagree with you, but for those who agree as well...

[DexterBase 0]

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I bet that if Tom was training a 16-year old boy skydiving "virgin", the responses seen would look much different than the oned on this thread

I seriously doubt that. Tom is a respected member of the BASE community, and is well known on DZ.com as the BASE zone moderator. This should earn him a little slack with us, but not in this situation.

BASE jumpers are actually a very intelligent group, and I'm not inclined to believe that they would abandon their ethics and morals regardless of which jumper was pushing in this direction.

BASE jumpers are, for the most part, willing to speak up when something is out of place.

I'm not going to enter an opinion on whether or not Jimmy is in the wrong. That's not my place. I'm simply saying that even though Tom is well respected in the community, his judgement has been questioned in the past. He's human, just like you and me. Human, and accountable.

[RhondaLea 3]

There are two standards: legal and ethical.

On the legal side, if you disobey a law--deliberately or by accident--you take your chances with the consequences.

In this case, we have a violation of at least one California law and possibly others:

Cal. Penal Code § 273a (West Supp. 1998)

Any person who, under circumstances or conditions likely to produce great bodily harm or death, willfully causes or permits any child to suffer, or inflicts thereon unjustifiable physical pain or mental suffering, or having the care or custody of any child, willfully causes or permits the person or health of that child to be injured, or willfully causes or permits that child to be placed in a situation where his or her person or health is endangered, shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or in the state prison for 2, 4 or 6 years.

Jimmy is a legal adult, who is permitted by law to make his own decisions. Clair is a legal incompetent who is not. Clair's parents have the legal responsibility to protect her welfare, but they do not have the legal right to sign away her right to safety. Only Clair can do that--but not until she becomes legally competent to do so.

So you're hanging out there, Jimmy, with potential criminal and civil penalties in the offing if you fuck up and maybe even if you don't.

On the ethical side, my own belief is that laws regarding victimless crimes are the legislation of the paternalistic, and as such, are made to be broken. As I see it, if you choose to do something that does not adversely impact others, no one has the right to forbid you freedom to do as you will, even if it damages you. IMO, BASE fits very neatly into such an ethical system.

Teaching Clair to base jump at this time and in this manner does not.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[wwarped 0]

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If you are happy with the way you carry yourself and the way you jump then why bother getting upset about what people are doing around you.

makes sense.

why are you so upset?

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[Amanduh 0]

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The question for many seems to be that I'm breaking an ethical law that has something to do with protecting minors from even their parents. Show me the law and I'll stop this instant.

Is this not enough?

Cal. Penal Code § 273a (West Supp. 1998)

Any person who, under circumstances or conditions likely to produce great bodily harm or death, willfully causes or permits any child to suffer, or inflicts thereon unjustifiable physical pain or mental suffering, or having the care or custody of any child, willfully causes or permits the person or health of that child to be injured, or willfully causes or permits that child to be placed in a situation where his or her person or health is endangered, shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or in the state prison for 2, 4 or 6 years.

(Thanks Rhonda...I knew it was out there just hadn't been able to locate it.) Jimmy...you truely are setting yourself up for criminal charges....I hope you see that.

[teamlf 0]

Why are you all so worried about jimmy setting himself up for legal problems i think we all take a risk with the law when we step up to that exit point.

[hexadecimal 0]

Imagine the media circus if this girl got killed?

I bet that would really help BASE grow as a sport...

[jonege 0]

Application of the law is not a black-or-white exercise. While BASE is clearly dangerous and CAN result in injury or death, lots of other activities can, as well. If it were a slam dunk that what Jimmy is doing would violate the quoted statute, then it would also be a slam dunk that many other things people do everyday would, as well, such as downhill mountain biking, motocross, big wave surfing, certain skating disciplines. All of those things place the participant "in a situation where his or her person or health is endangered." Yet minors engage in such activities every day, with full knowledge of the authorities, and their parents are not being prosecuted for letting them do it. That is not to say that if Clair went in a prosecutor couldn't try to use this to prosecute Jimmy, but if he or she did, it would not be an automatic conviction. He or she would have to prove endangerment, and while her going in would appear to do that, each successful jump she makes without going in works in the opposite direction.

[jimmyh 0]

HHHMMMMM. that's got me thinking. Thanks for finding that, but of course there's gonna be a law like that.

Anyway I'm gonna talk to a lawyer. As good as we all are at speculating, I wanna hear what a professional has to say.

Just keep in mind that I always knew I'd get in trouble if she got hurt. It's my arguement that she's not gonna.

I think laws like that only get pursued in the event of an incident, but like I said I will talk to alawyer and pass that along to her parents.

You've all done very well. Thanks

[nicrussell 0]

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It's my arguement that she's not gonna.

Seems a little niave jimmy. Dont get me wrong, I dont really have an opinion about what your doing, but a blanket I dont thhink she'll get hurt with less than a minute of FF & Canopy time COMBINED. I'd say the jury is still out.

-nice seeing you again last monday

--Nic

[Zennie 0]

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It's my arguement that she's not gonna.

Have YOU read The World BASE Fatalities List Jimmy?

You saying you know some magical safety formula that Carl, Nik, Skypunk, Lukas, Rob, Slim, Jason and the 83 others weren't privy to?

If you are, please do us all a public service and provide us with that revelation.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[grundleson 0]

look, i'm no vet in the BASE jumping world. but from what i know, as some of you may remember i came into this game a very cocky arrogant, punk.

i pissed a few people off and jumped with very little under canopy time and guess what, i sprained my ankle on my first jump. imagine that.

now this argument about taking someone up with no skydives and no previous experience flying, really blows me away. i thought we were supposed to be teaching new jumpers what the danger is in the sport and why it is soo important that you need a certain number of skydives and FJC's that are higly reccomended to everyone. but then just taking someone up and telling them to yank on the "seatbelts" when their canopy opens and hope for the best really makes me shudder.

i dont mean to bash anyone saying any of this i just dont agree with it.

Dont die!

[hookitt 0]

My stance: I think it's a bad idea. Extrapoolate upon that as much as you wish.

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but then just taking someone up and telling them to yank on the "seatbelts" when their canopy opens and hope for the best really makes me shudder

Jimmy is known for a bit of theatrics. Keep that in mind.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Zennie 0]

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but then just taking someone up and telling them to yank on the "seatbelts" when their canopy opens and hope for the best really makes me shudder

Jimmy is known for a bit of theatrics. Keep that in mind.

OK just so everybody knows...

The "yonkels" and "seatbelts" thing is from a deathcamp video made by Shane and the rest of the Red Bull crew. I personally find it disgusting and degrading (not to us, but to the poor souls who have no idea that their ignorance is being made a mockery of).

Apparently Jimmy's "training program" consists solely of this video... as Clair STILL refers to toggles as "yonkels" and risers as "seatbelts". Everything else is "we'll see how she does when it happens".

So Jimmy, at what altitude did you tell Clair to "shlare them yonkels"?

Oh, and Clair. Did you know that that bag of dogfood is the second take? The first bag of dogfood went into line twists and hit the wall.

Just so you know...

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[jimmyh 0]

If I say that I believe she's not gonna get hurt while I teach her is just how I feel. She stuck the shit out of her first jump and why should I believe it will be any different with her next ten that we plan to do at the same object under the same conditions.

This morning we got winded out so she got her experience with driving 3 hours to a site just to look at it for an hour then drive three hours back home.

The name of a little piece of canvas that you hold onto when you flair your canopy, tarp, sheet, parachute, kite, trashbag.....doesn't matter. A rose by any other name still smells as sweet, right? The thing about language and communication is that as long as one person understands the other it's considered successful. Why would it disgust anybody to call the damn thing a yonkel. She knows it's a fucking toggle.

I don't consider a sprained ankle being hurt. But she didn't even get that. She unstowed her breaks, turned into the wind flaired the whatever the fuck you call it, at the exact altitude that I told her, and stood up her landing. I said good job you just earned yourself another jump.

I'm not naive you stupid bastards I've watched just as many people die as any of you. And for the last time do not compare my first jump course with the fatality list of people who died at buildings, cliffs or other places doing things that a girl with 10 base jumps won't be doing.

I can guarantee you she will not have an object strike, she will have canvas above her head, or nylon, or whatever the fucking tarps are made out of, and she will be landing in a feild of grass. That's exactly what a skydiving school can offer. And on a skydiving students canopy program the only bit that matters is the last 50 feet. I don't care if they open at 4,500 feet and practice flairing 600 times. What matters is the last bit. Are they facing into the wind and will they flair their pantaloons symmetricaly at the right time?

I watched a seventeen year old girl who's been off student status for a total of 6 jumps land fully crosswind today and barely flaired past her shoulders. She barrel rolled a ton of times bounced up and was like "what the fuck? I gotta do that again just better." It was funny as hell. That's about the worst thing that will happen to Clair at the place I'm teaching her. DO YOU NOT ALL GET THAT?

Obviously I'm over it. By the way I haven't read the base fatality list. Could someone tell me if anyone on it was learning to base jump safely at the object I'm refering to?

Yonkels

[Zennie 0]

Boy, hit a raw nerve, did I? Good.

I was married to a narcissist. I know the personality type. I know how to press your buttons.

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That's about the worst thing that will happen to Clair at the place I'm teaching her. DO YOU NOT ALL GET THAT?

I get it. I get that you're lying to her at worst or not fully disclosing the truth at the least.

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By the way I haven't read the base fatality list.

I can tell by your attitude and approach.

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Could someone tell me if anyone on it was learning to base jump safely at the object I'm refering to?

Knowing what I know now, I am 100% conviced that you are not teaching her how to safely BASE jump. Your lack of responsiveness to our questions and "whatever happens, happens" attitude bears that out.

Regardless, there's a first for everything. You obviously seem Keen 'N Able to make that happen.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[FallingAngel 0]

Ok, so I've been reading this post since it started and I'm just wondering, Jimmy, if someone approaches you and asks you to teach them how to BASE, what influences if you say yes or no? How do you decide who to take on as a student?

[SabreDave 0]

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Sabre Dave,
Is that your shot of the quad gainer going off #6 from the side? That's the only Norway shot that I can think that went uncredited. Sorry about that. I should have written down your name before I left. It was an unfortunate oversight. Do you plan on sending me footage for the Keen 'N Able "get your crew in a BASE video contest"?

Dude..............yup, that's the one. Side shot, quad gainer...yo. K, no worries...
Did very much like the editing of RAdix! Regardless of politics and rails etc.......edited nicely and that's what interests me.

PM sent

Yo

SabreDave

[jimmyh 0]

Good question. When Clair first emailed me, I almost said no. Then I was like what the hell,and asked her whether or not she was athletic. Her reply was "last Winter I finaly stuck a back flip on a snowboard after landing on my neck wierd a few times." Then I called the references she gave me and they all said she "was pretty hard core." Most others have been friends at the DZ. I definitely have a certain "type" of person that I prefer to teach. You know the type: not lame.

However, with Clair it's a moot point now anyway cuz I got legal advice and I'm gonna stop teaching her until she's 18.

I said she drove three hours each way. If you all think that this was an attempt to sleep with a sixteen year old girl. You should look at yourselves cuz that thought never once crossed my mind.

Your questions were repetitive and they struck a nerve because they never addressed the issue that at the right object, under the right conditions, with the right instruction BASE jumping can be taught safely to someone with no skydiving experience. My "see what hapens" attitude is the same attitude we all take whenever we jump or teach someone else to jump. I know how I should react or would like to react, but I won't know how I will actualy react to linetwists until I have them. I jump anyway cuz I know that when i get them "we'll see what happens" I know how a student should react and I know how I told them to react but I don't know how they will actualy react until they have them. Is it wrong to say that we'll see how my student reacts to line twists when she gets them. What else can I honestly say? No matter which avenue you take when teaching someone to BASE jump you too are taking a "we'll see what happens" attitude because you just don't know what's going to happen until whatever is going to happen happens, and then you see. I never expect someone to get hurt when i take them BASE jumping for the first time and if any of you do, why do you do it. I say, "I don't expect you to get hurt, but you might. Just do what i told you and have fun."

Do you all tell the people you teach, "you are going to die or get hurt doing this. But go ahead anyway?"

What on God's green earth does my reading or not reading the fatality list have to do with anything. I know of most of the fatalities already and the ones I don't know about wouldn't surprise me.

For those of you who do not plan on buying my video, thanks. I would hate for you sacrefice your morals supporting a bastard like myself. For those of you who do, you'll be able to check out Clair's short lived, underaged stint with the sport of BASE jumping.

By the way, yonkels

[SabreDave 0]

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When Chris Muller was 15, he took off in his hang glider from the Golden launch with his Dad Willi for his first cross country flight.

It was a pretty big, turbulent day, and somewhere down the range to the SW, Willi and Chris got separated and Willi ended up landing (and having to expain to his wife how he had lost their son).

They got a phone call from the hospital in Invermere. Chris had landed in the field out front after flying over 100km from Golden.

Chris grew up to be one of the best in the world at piloting nylon & mylar craft of all types.

There are analogies in other pursuits...

Dude..... you and I (and many others) know that Chris was an exception among mortals!! He was gifted and does not represent the "average" learning curve! NO way, no how..........

edited to add... Chris grew up flying from the moment of self-awareness, his dad (Willi) was already a legend in the flying community

SabreDave

[Zennie 0]

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Is it wrong to say that we'll see how my student reacts to line twists when she gets them.

No. Except when she first experiences them on a BASE jump where there's no altitude to spare.

The rest of us (yourself included Jimmy) have experienced them on skydives where we had just a LITTLE bit of time to recognize the issue and then deal with it.

When it happened on a BASE jump (and yes I've had 180s with multiple line twists on a tower), I'd seen and dealt with it before and had a bit of an instinctual response to it. I wasn't doing the "whatever happens, happens" thing, I was using skills I had learned in the skydiving world. Those skills saved my life.

So you can say whatever you want. You can give all the reassurances you want. You can tell people "nothing will happen to you...TRUST ME".

Someone wiser than me once said "words are only worth the paper they're written on". You're all words, no substance.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[RhondaLea 3]

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Application of the law is not a black-or-white exercise. While BASE is clearly dangerous and CAN result in injury or death, lots of other activities can, as well. If it were a slam dunk that what Jimmy is doing would violate the quoted statute, then it would also be a slam dunk that many other things people do everyday would, as well, such as downhill mountain biking, motocross, big wave surfing, certain skating disciplines. All of those things place the participant "in a situation where his or her person or health is endangered." Yet minors engage in such activities every day, with full knowledge of the authorities, and their parents are not being prosecuted for letting them do it. That is not to say that if Clair went in a prosecutor couldn't try to use this to prosecute Jimmy, but if he or she did, it would not be an automatic conviction. He or she would have to prove endangerment, and while her going in would appear to do that, each successful jump she makes without going in works in the opposite direction.

Although it might seem logical to think that having made successful jumps before getting hurt or killed would be evidence of non-endangerment, I don't think it's relevant. The analogy that probably works is that of drunk driving. If you drive drunk ten times with your kid in the car and nothing happens, it doesn't mean you're going to be off the hook when you kill or maim him the eleventh time.

As for the other dangerous activities you mentioned, they're not as lethal as BASE on a statistical scale. Further, as wwarped pointed out, they begin with a progression that allows one to gain proficiency over time. In BASE, it's sink or swim the very first time.

I admit, I didn't bother to look at any case law. But not being inclined to go off half-cocked, I did discuss it fully with a lawyer--one who has seen just about everything, because he's been practicing for 50 years. Given the outcome of that little chat, if I were the parent of a minor child, I wouldn't even sign a skydiving waiver.

But Jimmy has said he's going to stop teaching Clair until she's 18, so it's moot.

What isn't moot is the discussion of whether teaching someone BASE without any skydiving experience is a legitimate method. IMO, someone with a lot of skydiving experience is at a disadvantage because they have ingrained reactions to unlearn when beginning BASE. On the other hand, canopy skills are essential, so just throwing someone off an object doesn't look like a very good idea. My question then is this: in a perfect world, how would you design the perfect pre-base parachuting course?

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb