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jimmyh

16 Year Old Deathcamper

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it seems strange for the grammar policewoman to end a sentence with a preposition.



You have me for someone else mistaken. :|

I was never the "grammar policewoman." I was $kin's spellchecker. I believe he referred to me as "some busybody in Florida." :P

Congratulations on being post #250. Think we'll make 300?

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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***Let me rephrase it then:

You don't know what you're talking about.
________________________________________________________________________________________

Nice personal attack- For the record I do know what I am talking about. However, it goes against what you believe, therefore you discredit it. As I said in the beginning- it's all perspective. Everyone has one- and no one persons is right. But thanks anyway. I actually got a PM from someone saying that I slammed you in my post- seems to be the other way around.

***I was trying to be kind about what is a factually ignorant statement that you've made more than once.

Your reaction--and your explanation therefor--indicates you have an issue that has nothing to do with me or the topic of this thread.

As for the rest of your post, I find it unworthy of comment.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Well ok then. As I said in the PM to the guy that said I was slamming you- I dont know you, and you dont know me. I have nothing against you- except for a differing opinion on the matter.
And to wwarped- I haven't vented at all on the "community" that I am trying to become a part of. I was expressing my opinion- and saying the whole time (but apparently people kept missing it, so I'll say it again)- It's all about perspective. We all have one- and no one is right. My perspective is that given the right conditions, and the right 16 year old, BASE jumping is ok. Your perspective is that its not. Niether one of us is right.
For the record, I also recieved a PM from a BASE jumper (I will not disclose who this person is- if they want to that, it is thier choice) in which they said "You picked a great thread to post in. It's unfortunate that people are dismissing you for your lack of BASE experience--you make an excellant point in my opinion." Apparently, someone out there agrees with my perspective. And they are a BASE jumper (with a number) to boot. Again, it doesn't make me right.
If anything, I'd say that I have been slammed, and vented on by the "community" that I really want to be a part of (well at least by a few people in the community). Probably because I have no experience jumping. It's too bad it had to be that way.
When I finally decided that I wanted to get into skydiving (and maybe BASE one day)- I started doing research. That was way back in December. I read the forums (about 20 pages worth of threads in the Safety and Training Forum alone) for about 2 months before I decided to post anything here. I remember thinking way back then- "I have a feeling that skydivers are going to be this elitist group with an I'm better than you are mentality." I was pleasantly surprised to be wrong. I have PM'd alot of people here, and talked to one on the phone for quite a few hours. I have been amazed at how everyone is not all high and mighty. People were willing to offer advice. When I was going to go to my first Boogie (just to meet people and see people skydive), a well known skydiver told me to look for them when I got to the DZ, so they could show me around, and introduce me to everyone. Rather nice if you ask me.
Well after 8 months now- I have finally found the elitist. The people that think, just because I haven't jumped yet, that I have nothing intelligent to offer to this discussion. It's actually a pretty sad moment for me. Because I have talked (through emails) to 2 very world known BASE jumpers, who were the most down to Earth people I have ever talked to. They never once acted like I was a nobody that they didnt want to give the time of day to.


The sole intention, is learning to fly.Condition grounded, but determined to try.Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies.Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit.

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Nice personal attack



Please google ad hominem to gain a better understanding of "personal attack."

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If anything, I'd say that I have been slammed, and vented on by the "community" that I really want to be a part of. Probably because I have no experience jumping.



Ya think?

I think you're wrong.

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It's all about perspective. We all have one- and no one is right.



Once again, you are wrong. But you keep saying it, over and over again.

When I was very small, an adult thought it was okay to use me sexually. But it's all about perspective. He had one. I had one. But neither of us was right. Right?

When I was seven months pregnant, someone bounced me around the kitchen, dragged me up the driveway, and pounded my head into a wall. But it's all about perspective. He had one. I had one. But neither of us was right. Right?

When I was...

Fuck it.

I find moral relativism sickening. The day that someone hurts your kid--and believe me, someone will, because all of us were hurt one way or another as children--you come back and tell me about how it's all perspective and no one is right. I'll be waiting.

Finally, I find your wholesale attack against this forum unwarranted and unconscionable. I'm the one with whom you seem to have a quarrel, and no one said anything about your having jumped or not--except your mystery supporter in a PM--most especially not me. My post had nothing to do with your ignorance of jumping, but was wholly aimed at your ignorance of child psychology. Take note: I never said anything about your parenting skills. You're the one who brought up that fact that your own parents criticize yours.

But under your theory of reality, it's no big deal anyway.

Because no one's right...

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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Let me try one last time. Skolls:

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My perspective is that given the right conditions, and the right 16 year old, BASE jumping is ok.



Possibly...but not likely. To even consider this (IMHO), the 16 year old would more than likely have had to have grown up at the DZ with skydiving (even better if base jumping) parents, parents that actually understanding the risks of base, the child actually understanding the risks from being around even skydiving (which will usually bring in a tad of base knowledge - fatalities, etc)...wouldn't hurt to have some high platform diving swim team time...practiced the hell out of his / her canopy skills multiple times from altitude, and know how to become their own rigger and take that kind of responsibility into his / hers own hands. Now...find me a 16 year old child with those credentials (or even most) and I might think you have a point, nor do I think people on this board would reject so whole-heartily.

Regardless of what this girl had in her mind, whether to impress others or to go after her own dream...is irrelevant to this ordeal (ALL IN MY OPINION). I remember reading somewhere in here that she SHOULD read the fatality database (not that she HAD). She has never been under a canopy until just recently (which probably wasn't long at all)...and I'm assuming since Jimmy never answered me to whether her parents were skydivers or base jumpers, that they aren't, and are not grasping at the time exactly what it is their daughter is doing. Not to mention going off a tower with no previous canopy time. She has no insight into the exact world she is bringing herself into, nor do her parents. That is what could back fire in the long run on Jimmy, IF (not saying something would) something should happen to Claire under his mentorship.

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Well after 8 months now- I have finally found the elitist. The people that think, just because I haven't jumped yet, that I have nothing intelligent to offer to this discussion.



Dont be so quick to judge.

Amanda



*Edited for spelling

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Let me begin by saying, that I am sorry for what happened to you in the past. It's very sad that you had to go through that.
But my attack on this forum?? Whoa- I didn't attack anyone. I just read through all my posts, and I know I didn't attack anyone. I tried to make a point that very few people understood- Most parents would consider putting a 4 year old on a dirtbike a very dangerous and careless thing to do. But to some parents, it's not a big deal. Apparently, alot of people think it's a big deal to let a 16 year old BASE jump. Given the right circumstances, I dont see it as that big a deal, as do some other people here. I just happened to be the one to come out and say it. Sorry that my mystery supporter didn't feel like getting slammed in the forums.
And as far as a quarrel with you??? In my last post I said that I didnt know you, and I had nothing against you- just a differing opinion. You on the other hand, tell me I dont know what I am talking about, and that I am ignorant. See, now I would take that as a personal attack- I guess my perspective on that is different than yours.;)
I still dont have anything against you. You have your opinion, I have mine. My opinion is right for me, and your's is right for you. Let's leave it at that.


The sole intention, is learning to fly.Condition grounded, but determined to try.Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies.Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit.

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Well after 8 months now- I have finally found the elitist. The people that think, just because I haven't jumped yet, that I have nothing intelligent to offer to this discussion. It's actually a pretty sad moment for me. Because I have talked (through emails) to 2 very world known BASE jumpers, who were the most down to Earth people I have ever talked to. They never once acted like I was a nobody that they didnt want to give the time of day to.



You would be correct in your initial assessment. BASE jumpers are, by a LARGE margin, some of the most down-to-earth, non-condescending people you will find. It's one of the things that attracted me to this sport.

That said, it is easy to understand how a person new to the sport and culture might view it otherwise. But the reason is twofold:

1. The nature of an internet forum is such that it lends itself to a little more "spirited" debate than you would find on a person-to-person level.
2. BASE jumpers are a self-regulating group. We are very independent and don't want the government dictating how we do things. So we deal with things internally.

Grundleson had a similar experience and secondary assessment. He caught a lot of flak of the forums when he started a little earlier than most folks thought was wise. However, he stepped back a bit, took it a little easier, got the necessary prerequisite experience, and is becoming a solid jumper in his own right.

BASE jumpers are very passionate about the sport and their brothers and sisters within it. The problem with people new to the sport is that all they've seen is the glamorous side. All the super-cool-neato jumps that people are making that look like a hell of a lot of fun. And they are.

What they haven't seen, unlike many of the folks who have been in this sport for a while, is the dark side. The human body is very fragile. This sport will show you just how fragile it is.

I've shown several prospective jumpers the dark side, and several have decided not to jump when they saw it.

This is semi-rambling, but the problem is the issue is very nuanced. It ISN'T black and white. What may pass as just dandy in one situation is totally unacceptable in another. It depends on all of the factors involved.

There is a point when gray turns to black. And when that happens BASE jumpers are very vocal about it. And yes, there is disagreement as to where that point is, but if you put the finger on the pulse of the community you can get a sense of where that is.

We are a very opinionated group. We are a very passionate group. If you do something stupid people will tell you (and yes I've been on the receiving end of that ... heh). We aren't exclusionary or elitist though.

If you roll back I don't think you'll see a single post that says "I don't want Clair BASE jumping". My objection all along has been to the methodology which I believe does her, and the rest of the sport, a grave disservice.

Fortunately, other circumstances seem to have now taken her down a road which I think will make her a better, more prepared BASE jumper, in the future.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

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Zennnie,
very well said. This does lend itself to spirited debate whereas face to face conversations go quite differently. Many of the face to face conversations I've had recently with "big name" Northern Californian jumpers have been extremely positive. If all you had to go by was this forum you'd think they'd end up with my ass getting kicked. Still, this forum is an excellent place to work through these types of debates. I don't know abut the rest of you, but this has been a good conversation about a very relevent issue.

Rhonda, do you remember meeting me on your trip to Lodi a couple of years ago? You are that Rhonda right? I think it's time for you to lie down and be quiet, you don't look so well.

Amanda, about his mythical sixteen year old you just created...Remember the Bill Booth waiver I mentioned? the one that 16 year olds and their parents sign almost every day? "there will not now nor will there ever be a perfect plane, a perfect pilot, a perfect parachute instructor, or for that matter A PERFECT STUDENT." Don't tell me tandems are "safe" Seth Blake was an awesome BASE jumper, who took me on my first BASE jump in '91, and it wasn't BASE jumping that killed him. But I'm pretty close to that kid you just described, except now I'm thirty two. At this point in my career, trust me (haha) I know a "good" student when I see one. Sounds like BASE jumping scared you a little bit and you decided to back off. That's good. You probably made the right call. Make your own decisions but let others make there's. k?

Skolls,
You're lack of base expeience doesn't mean that your analogies have'nt been logically correct. I worked with a philosophy professor back in school and I used to read ethics and value theory, and logic papers for him. Your logic is sound. People have let their emotions write their responses to you. My logic has been sound as well. But I don't or expect others to recognize that. It's just a sign of how much they love this sport, and if that's wrong they shouldn't want to be right. Don't let these people fight with you about what makes a good or loving parent.

That's it

later,
jimmy

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I remember you quite well, Jimmy.

Bill Booth recorded the waiver video back when tandem passengers were required to be 18 years of age. And most of the people watching that waiver video today are 18 years old, because most dzos are aware of the liability issues. Just because there are some dropzones that allow minors to jump doesn't mean its a good idea from a legal standpoint.

2004 dz.com discussion

RWS letter w/attorney opinion attached

Philosophy was my major field of study, Jimmy. An analogy has to be analogous, and for logic to be sound, it has to be free of fallacies. I saw a lot of fallacies in your arguments--which is why your "logic" is lost on me, and apparently at least a few others--and your ad hominem directed at Amanda is the least of it. As for Skolls... Who cares whether he has jumped or not? Not me. I do care, however, that his argument seems--at its core--no more than justification of a personal decision to put his kid on a dirt bike. I also care that the therapeutic standard of being non-judgmental has made its way into the real world as an ethical philosophy. "No one is right." Sheesh! Edmund Burke is spinning in his grave.

Finally, I subscribe to the writer's theory that "it's all material." The events of my life more than 40, 30, 20 years ago--even some of the events of the last 10 years--are what I pull out for the sake of debate, not what I agonize about in the middle of the night. So I'm feeling quite well, thank you, although I appreciate your concern for my well-being.

rl

Edited to add: Critical Thinking on the Web and, particularly applicable to some of the posts in this thread, Conversational Terrorism
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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And please dont tell me that I can't relate to the dangers of BASE- I may never have jumped (Skydiving or BASE) but I know how to handle myself in crisis situations. I'm not saying that I would be able to handle every bad situation that BASE could throw my way (and apparently, neither can expert BASE jumpers- after reading the BASE fatality list) but within the knowledge of myself and how I handle bad, even life threatening situations, I believe that I would be able to react accordingly to try and save my ass.



by BASE's injury rate, by BASE's fatality rate, by the loss of BASE's big names, I must conclude we really haven't figured this sport out yet.

if we knew what we were doing and could train initiates accordingly, I would not care about training a 16 year old. the dirtbike comparison becomes very valid.

this sport has instructors doing everything they know how to teach as well as possible. (there are also instructors running "deathcamps." basically just providing stunts to their clients.)

please, please, show us the way to end the carnage. tell us the skills we need and how to develop them safely and reliably.

once we know, this whole thread becomes null and void. we would be just like the dirtbike racers.
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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Please google ad hominem to gain a better understanding of "personal attack."



The term, more specifically, is circumstantial ad hominem. For example:

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until you find yourself faced with the risks BASE jumping WILL throw at you, you have no idea how to relate.



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Your child isn't old enough for you to know that you don't make a kid jump a 30 foot gap.



The original poster's lack of BASE experience, or the age of his child, has no direct bearing on the truth of his statements. If you want to question what he has said, question what he has said. Attacking only his qualifications is tacky.

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by BASE's injury rate, by BASE's fatality rate, by the loss of BASE's big names, I must conclude we really haven't figured this sport out yet.



Well finally a good anoligy....

As for compairing to dirtbike racing or dirt bike ariels....a bit of a difference... assume that a fall from over 20 ft has a good chance of killing you ...that could include your own house for that matter.... Lets just say 100 ft for instance...you fall you die..... So whats the big deal ....You know skydiving, base jumping, climbing ,cleaning your 3rd story roof....paddeling out to Maverics in a winter swell...if you fall there is a good chance you will die.... thats it...get over it and get on with living your life ...

just my 1 cent as this post is getting a little to away from its start and getting to far into how we should parent....and what sort of ethics are acceptable...

I am a parent and its none of anyones business how and what i teach my children ......i do try to guide them on good decision making and acceptable risks..
They all wakeboard and ...yes people die wakeboarding...they surf...and yes people die surfing..

they do have have socialist countries that can tell you how to run your life and your families.....

I prefer freedom of choice weather good or bad....you cant save everyone.....just live it one day at a time..;)

Uggg, looks like i got sucked in to this discussion:S ....


In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

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Quote

Please google ad hominem to gain a better understanding of "personal attack."



The term, more specifically, is circumstantial ad hominem. For example:

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until you find yourself faced with the risks BASE jumping WILL throw at you, you have no idea how to relate.



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Your child isn't old enough for you to know that you don't make a kid jump a 30 foot gap.



The original poster's lack of BASE experience, or the age of his child, has no direct bearing on the truth of his statements. If you want to question what he has said, question what he has said. Attacking only his qualifications is tacky.



Skolls kept using the word "force" in the context of the activities children participate in. My point was--and continues to be--that with a 22 month old child, he has no personal experience about how a child reacts when a parent tries to force that child to do something the child doesn't want to do. (Although, now that I think of it, most children go through a stage earlier where they won't go to strangers--and sometimes even to one parent--and they scream and struggle if you try to make them.) But having taken the position he did re "force", it is factually demonstrable that he has not researched the issue. If he had an older child whom he had been able to force to do things, then he might have a fact in favor of his argument, but he has neither the personal experience nor has he done the research to back up his argument.

In my post, I put specific emphasis on the word "make" which is missing from your quote. If the meaning wasn't clear, then I'll work on being even more pedantic than I am already, but I think that broadening the application of my remark or responding to it as an attack on parenting skills (as he did) is a little over the top.

I would also like to note that you missed another fallacy because I sat dumbfounded as my assertion that Skolls is ignorant about a subject was converted into the assumption that I was calling him ignorant as a blanket statement. The first can be demonstrated on the facts--and ignorance about a subject is relevant to the discussion of the subject--the second is an attack, plain and simple. I was very careful about what I wrote, and I do not like having my words twisted.

rl

Edited to add: To assert that ignorance about a subject disqualifies one from arguing that subject, is not, as far as I know, a fallacy.

Edited to add: A more precise definition of ad hominem.
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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Amanda, about his mythical sixteen year old you just created...Remember the Bill Booth waiver I mentioned? the one that 16 year olds and their parents sign almost every day? "there will not now nor will there ever be a perfect plane, a perfect pilot, a perfect parachute instructor, or for that matter A PERFECT STUDENT." Don't tell me tandems are "safe" Seth Blake was an awesome BASE jumper, who took me on my first BASE jump in '91, and it wasn't BASE jumping that killed him. But I'm pretty close to that kid you just described, except now I'm thirty two. At this point in my career, trust me (haha) I know a "good" student when I see one. Sounds like BASE jumping scared you a little bit and you decided to back off. That's good. You probably made the right call. Make your own decisions but let others make there's. k?



Honestly,the only thing about BASE that scared me was how thick it ran through my veins after only 2 jumps. The addiction itself is what has made me step back and get more training before persuing it further. I love the sport. The jumps I made ..nothing went wrong..my mentors said I "nailed it"...dude...I still feel the jumps. I can't explain it. I just need to wait. You're right..my decision. But I have my head on straight and know what base can throw at you...I personally would rather give myself every advantage possible to hopefully make it out alive & in one piece..there's so much to learn. Knowledge never killed anyone..but the lack of surely has.

I was being a bit dramatic describing a good '16 year old base student', but I think you know what I was getting at. One of the main things in my head is that her parents might not know exactly what she was getting into. That's why i had pointed that out to you earlier on in this forum, because I was looking ahead and trying to help keep an eye out for another. *you*

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Rhonda why do i always see you in disscusses in BASEforum but not in other treads(or did i miss them?)
To me it seems that you have some strong oppinions which you often tells in a agressive way,or is it my lack of english that screw my sight on this?

Im sorry if thouse thing happened to you as you were younger but posting like you did has no relavance here...

BASE jumping aint illegal,however:traspassing,comitting suiside(in case you die,atleast thats illegal arround here,but never heard any went to jail for that one..:P),harming the genneral public,disorter ets etc are illegal.. ita all about which eyes you use to look at theese if a BASEjumping is illegal..
Usaly the only law i break is trasspassing,a few times i have might made some disorter as people saw me jump,But never have i harmed anyone,stolen anything or destroyed anything at any objects.

Could you find a law(for a hole cuntry/state) were it says that jumping off anything whith a parachute is illegal..I dont think you´ll find it..

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I see a lot of putative adults posting on these forums who don't truly comprehend that parachuting can kill them. If they don't, why would you expect such comprehension of a child?


actualy i see alot of adults not even thinking that about skydive....
Also i see alot of people not understand how the equipment works,and dont know how to pack their own main(skydive)or as BASEjumpers want to see a rigger just to get a new pair of risers on the canopy..Now talk about people living in a world were they trust somthing and others..I think thats lack of interest of the equipment thats gonna save us,again meaning not knowing the risk for real..

flame away...:ph34r:

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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Ronda why do i always see you in disscusses in BASEforum but not in other treads(or did i miss them?)



Try the search feature.

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To me it seems that you have some strong oppinions which you often tells in a agressive way,or is it my lack of english that screw my sight on this?



I don't know if it's possible for me to judge that, Faber. The old saw goes "every time I open my mouth, I offend someone somewhere." I just say what I think, and I'm prepared to argue my point of view. I'm also prepared to change it the minute I get new data that says I'm wrong, and there is evidence of that all over the internet and usenet, if you know where to look.

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Im sorry if thouse thing happened to you as you were younger but posting like you did has no relavance here...



As an argument against the idea that "everything is just a matter of perspective" it certainly does have relevance here, Faber. If everything really is only a matter of how an individual sees something, then it is quite all right to do harm to others. If it is not all right to do harm to others, then everything is not just a matter of perspective. If one is going to make an analogy, then it needs to be one that makes the point.

As a therapeutic device, being non-judgmental is a great tool for helping someone work out their issues. I don't think it was ever intended that it should escape into the real world as an ethical principal, but it did, and it's a real hot button with me.

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Just as an aside, people who try but fail to suicide are often committed to psychiatric facilities. No jail time, but involuntary committment is no different, practically speaking, than incarceration.

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Could you find a law(for a hole cuntry/state) were it says that jumping off anything whith a parachute is illegal..I dont think you´ll find it..



I wasn't looking for it. I think I've got a pretty good idea of the law as it applies to BASE. I'm pretty sure I didn't say that BASE is illegal, per se. It doesn't matter, however, because if someone trespasses on private property for the purpose of putting a minor off a tower, there are many charges that can--and likely will--be preferred against the adult.

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I see a lot of putative adults posting on these forums who don't truly comprehend that parachuting can kill them. If they don't, why would you expect such comprehension of a child?



actualy i see alot of adults not even thinking that about skydive....



I'm not getting what you mean with this comment.

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flame away...:ph34r:



No reason to flame you, Faber, but I'm not sure why you started your post the way you did. Was it to try to get me to react? Where I post and my posting style seem irrelevant to the discussion, but maybe I'm missing something.

rl

P.S. You spelled my name wrong.
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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In Reply To
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Rhonda why do i always see you in disscusses in BASEforum but not in other treads(or did i miss them?)

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Try the search feature.


which gave me about the same result by a quick scan..
Sorry i spelled your name wrong,sometimes i cant even spell my own name.. hope you see i edited my fault.

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As an argument against the idea that "everything is just a matter of perspective" it certainly does have relevance here


i do agree for some matter but i dont see any of the crimes against you were done here.. there fore i cant link it and cant see why you bring it up.. Its some strong lines that does that people might twist their answeres towards you,which i guess you wont apritiate...

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Just as an aside, people who try but fail to suicide are often committed to psychiatric facilities


which aint a punishment towards them but a help.. becourse they didnt do a crime hurting themself..

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It doesn't matter, however, because if someone trespasses on private property for the purpose of putting a minor off a tower, there are many charges that can--and likely will--be preferred against the adult.


in which i agree,if i found out that one of my kids were deathcamped off somthing (knowing that Jimmy first spoke to the parents here),would leave me behind bars for murder...

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I see a lot of putative adults posting on these forums who don't truly comprehend that parachuting can kill them. If they don't, why would you expect such comprehension of a child?

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actualy i see alot of adults not even thinking that about skydive....

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I'm not getting what you mean with this comment.


I think alot of people arround have no idea about what theyre doing(risk meaning) in both skydiving and BASE before they loose a freind or get injuryed badly them self...
I also say that i see people whith lack of knowledge to jump meaning packing a main or do minor "rigging-stuff" means that people interest to the subject does that they dont know all the dangeres..(not saying you know at the point you master this but its a good guide way).

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I'm not sure why you started your post the way you did


i wanted to tell you that i didnt liked the way you posted your private issues. i think you could have done it in a better way..

the flame away were becourse i know alot of people dont agree whith me on the above oppinions,and as you i just tell them..

PS. going back to edit your name now,sorry[:/]

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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i wanted to tell you that i didnt liked the way you posted your private issues. i think you could have done it in a better way..



Why? Because it makes you uncomfortable? Would it be better to use a nameless, faceless example?

I write what I know, Faber. As I said, it's the writer's curse: everything I see, everything I do, it's all fodder for the pot. It isn't traumatic for me. If it is for you, then I'm sorry you're upset, but I don't really understand why it would be any more upsetting than what you read in the newspaper on any given day.

All that said, the point is not my experiences, the point is that "perception is NOT reality." The question to ask, always, is this: "Is it a fact?"

People can and do spin everything. If you were to ask the first person I mentioned, he could justify what he did. So could the second. I know this because they tried to justify it to me.

But no one's right, so my position that they were both wrong is just my opinion, and it has no greater weight than their position that they were justified.

Right?

In which case, I take back everything I said. Jimmy should feel free to take Clair back to the tower right now and do anything else he feels like doing, as long as he thinks it's okay. Because all that counts is what he believes. There is no other standard.

rl

P.S. Yes, Faber, I post in the other forums. I also post in other places that have nothing to do with dz.com.
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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Why? Because it makes you uncomfortable? Would it be better to use a nameless, faceless example?


than setting you in a place were it looks like your proud that you had a rugh life? yes indeed,or for others..

I simply saw no reasson for the way you posted,other than you could tell about it..

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but I don't really understand why it would be any more upsetting than what you read in the newspaper on any given day.


it also upset me what i read in newspapers,most people does or our laws wouldnt be the way they are...
Does it make it better that it has been said,does that justify?


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People can and do spin everything. If you were to ask the first person I mentioned, he could justify what he did. So could the second. I know this because they tried to justify it to me.

But no one's right, so my position that they were both wrong is just my opinion, and it has no greater weight than their position that they were justified.


bull shit

sorry i cant see if you just want to discuss or what your doing but hey,this is twisted.If you think thouse things were ok feel free to think so,it is named as a syndrom somewere(stockholm? i cant rember).It dosent make it right,that people can justify to them self that what theyre doing is ok..

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P.S. Yes, Faber, I post in the other forums. I also post in other places that have nothing to do with dz.com.


PS.Rhonda, i dont know were your going whith that,but as of here you usaly just join the batles atleast thats what i see,and that justify my point of weiv,Right?

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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Rhoinda,
Hey how's your daughter? She's not still in jail is she? Or was that actucally prison? I woudn't bring it up as this isn't the place to talk about people's personal lives but it seems that you have no problem talking abot your personal life here, or good parenting skills for that matter. When we were living in that same house in Lodi for those those few days that you were here, I remember your daughter was something you talked about a lot, along with herbal remidies. She was what 16 or 17 at the time you were here? Anyway, someone just told me the news that she ended up in prison over all that stuff. Too bad, I thought she wanted to be a vetenarian. Something about you not letting her go to school as any day you were both going to move to California. Sure hope everything works out all right.

Tom,
lock this thread. It's ran its productive course.

later,
jimmy

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Rhoinda,
Hey how's your daughter? She's not still in jail is she? Or was that actucally prison? I woudn't bring it up as this isn't the place to talk about people's personal lives but it seems that you have no problem talking abot your personal life here, or good parenting skills for that matter. When we were living in that same house in Lodi for those those few days that you were here, I remember your daughter was something you talked about a lot, along with herbal remidies. She was what 16 or 17 at the time you were here? Anyway, someone just told me the news that she ended up in prison over all that stuff. Too bad, I thought she wanted to be a vetenarian. Something about you not letting her go to school as any day you were both going to move to California. Sure hope everything works out all right.

Tom,
lock this thread. It's ran its productive course.

later,
jimmy



Well, Jimmy, I don't know that this has much to do with moral relativism--which was the point of the examples I used--but okay. I did leave Lodi right after it all happened, so you would have no way to know. And I did actually mention her in one of my posts to Skolls; the same post where I pointed out that someone whose child is not yet old enough to be resistant would not know how resistant children can be. I never said anything about parenting skills, because of course, my point had nothing to do with parenting skills at all.

She spent several months in the county jail. She has been out for more than two years, and she's fine. Thank you for asking.

Four threads to rec.skydiving, all started by me, since you're not clear on the details:

December 31, 2002 "Becky" 3 messages

January 13, 2003 "Thank you (was Re: Becky)" 268 messages

January 22, 2003, "Becky-Thanks for mail" 91 messages

January 14, 2003 "Becky loves..." 8 messages
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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