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jimmyh

16 Year Old Deathcamper

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uh, can we please try to get it back?



Too late. It is now officially a food fight.

For the record--because we are clearly headed for a thread lock--if we're taking sides on the various issues, I pick Tom and I pick Nick. Not because they're Tom and Nick--although that's reason enough--but because

(a) Tom just got nailed with an off-topic and undeserved brick to the back of the head--again, and

(b) because Nick has earned the right to judge.

This was an interesting discussion while it lasted. I'm sorry that it has gone so far off track.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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Too late. It is now officially a food fight.



"Try to guess what I am right now..."



**PFFFFFFTTTTTTT!!!!!**

"I'm a zit!!! Get it?"

:D

This has also officially become the biggest thread yet in the BASE forum. I took a look at the threads by number of posts.

This one is #1, now by a fairly large margin. Three of the top 4 are arguments over, ironically enough, training and ethics. Three are specificially about deathcamping.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

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Having no skydiving or BASE experience, I just sat back and watched this unfold- but I just have to comment on this whole issue. Now, understand, that even though I have never jumped, I do understand that this sport is very risky (and you can do everything right, and still get hurt, or killed).
As I read through this topic, an image popped into my head- 2 years ago, I was in Las Vegas watching the US Open (of Supercross- for those of you who dont know, that's dirtbike racing). The first round of racers, was the kids class. Thats right, little 4, 5, and 6 year olds on dirtbikes. Now racing around a track may not be that big a deal, but this one little 5 year old kid goes off and jumps a 30 foot double. He's about 15 feet in the air. Now, doing everything right, this kid could still have wiped out, broken his back, or maybe snapped his neck and died. To me that seems pretty risky for a 5 year old. But I dont see any parents getting childrens services called on them. These parents knowingly endanger their children, but it's ok in their eyes.
Now, I'm not saying that dirtbike racing is just as dangerous as BASE jumping, but it is definitley not a safe sport to be in.
No one here knows this girl Clair. (Except for her 2 or 3 posts, which may not have even been her). She could be an extremely mature, well rounded, inteligent girl who has looked into BASE jumping, has assesed the risks, and wants to pursue it. Or she could be a naive, not so inteligent 16 year old trying to impress god knows who.
We can sit around all day long, and argue that it's unethical and careless for Jimmy to take this girl BASE jumping- but it's really hers, and her parents decision. Maybe both her parents have researched BASE jumping, and know that their daughter really wants to do this, so they figure they'll support her. Maybe her parents are stoned off their rockers and have no clue.
As if my 2 cents actually matters.......


The sole intention, is learning to fly.Condition grounded, but determined to try.Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies.Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit.

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Now, I'm not saying that dirtbike racing is just as dangerous as BASE jumping, but it is definitley not a safe sport to be in.



And, on the flipside, a 16-year-old is definitely more mature than a 5-year-old. The 16-year-old owns his or her decisions about as much as anybody does, while the 5-year-old likely wouldn't have given dirtbikes a second thought if Mom and Dad didn't like 'em. I expect, too, that your average 16-year-old has a better understanding of the risks of falling hundreds of feet without a functional parachute than your average 5-year-old has of the risks inherent in supercross.

As my first witnesses, I call the dozens of little snots who have flown by me on the ski hill -- like I was standing still -- when I figured I had some good speed going.

:)

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Now, I'm not saying that dirtbike racing is just as dangerous as BASE jumping, but it is definitley not a safe sport to be in.



And, on the flipside, a 16-year-old is definitely more mature than a 5-year-old. The 16-year-old owns his or her decisions about as much as anybody does, while the 5-year-old likely wouldn't have given dirtbikes a second thought if Mom and Dad didn't like 'em. I expect, too, that your average 16-year-old has a better understanding of the risks of falling hundreds of feet without a functional parachute than your average 5-year-old has of the risks inherent in supercross.



I think we've addressed this to some extent. It's the difference between being taught to swim and being tossed in to sink or swim. No one puts a kid on skis and sends him down the expert slope. No one puts a kid on a dirt bike and sends her around the track. For that matter, no one puts a kid on a bicycle and sends him out on a four lane highway.

Furthermore, statistically speaking, none of these activities are as dangerous as BASE or skydiving.

If we're going to make analogies, they have to be analogous.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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Perhaps you are correct r.e internet yelling. I can be a real arse (ass) sometimes when I get on my soapbox.

But a total lack of respect for someone else's life is not human behaviour. Remember, the Americans are trying to catch those type of people in all parts of the world. ;)

<<<<<<>>>>

I referred to Jimny's particular experiment.

I was fortunate to witness and be actively involved in much experimentation in this sport with people at the highest levels (DW, RS, RP, etc). One thing all these great people had in common is that they had a multifaceted and sequential skill development program that led them to the top. And the big factor, they experimented themselves, on themselves. NOT on some minor who has a passionate zest for life but no clear understanding of the consequences of her actions. Therein lies the problem with Jimmy. I have not seen anything that clearly shows that he is contributing to the sport in a positive way.

BTW - I have said that I am not personally against Clair and her jumping because I do not know her particular situation and characteristics. I am also not against children jumping. But it has to be in an extremely well controlled manner with a number of criteria satisfied. The words Jimmy has chosen (which may not necessarily reflect the actions) do not give me any comfort that he is doing the right thing.

And bottom line, when any person (including myself ;)) makes brash/outlandish/controversial comments, there WILL be criticism from others. That is the nature of this beast that we call human.

:)
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

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I think dirt bikes can be just as dangerous as BASE. Our area of the world producers a huge number of world class riders. In fact, the current AMA champion (MM) is from here (also an in-law of mine). The highest paid motorcross rider in the USA is also from down under. There have been many accidents/injuries/deaths in that sport/activity over the years.

Let me tell you about 4 years olds on motorbikes. They spend years learning to crawl and walk. Then they spend ages on 3 wheelers, then two wheelers with training wheels, then two wheelers, then mtorbikes. All along, there parents and/or coaches are guiding them.

This is a little different to saying, here's a bike and a gnarly motorcross track kid, go for it.


You are absolutely correct, it is her decision in the end. BUT WHY TEMPT HER??????? If someone offers a kid sex or drugs, do you think we could share the responsibility around a little? Or should we do something about the person who offers??? Yes, we already do. Laws have been made accordingly.

BTW - its good to see that Jimmy is open enough to listen r.e. legal repercussion and has changed his stance a little. This shows that he does have an open mind. We just need to work on filling it with the correct information. Then he would be an awesome guy who showed his human side in the past and made one silly mistake. That would be a happy ending.
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

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Just a little update. We don't call it "cadillac" anymore. We call it the Big Dog, or the Big A. Just so you know for the next time you're out here. If you ask to go jump "Cadillac" very few people will know what you're talking about and you sound like an old timer.



The details Jimmy that's what you are missing and that's probably why so many are pissed at ya. You know the subtle little things that for most people go unnoticed but they are the very same strange attractors that make some of us click with each other. Like naming a site "Cadillac" for instance, absolutely fucking brilliant, and now you guys call it what? Big fucking dog? A retarded 4 year old could have come up with a better name!
Memento Audere Semper

903

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Let me tell you about 4 years olds on motorbikes. They spend years learning to crawl and walk. Then they spend ages on 3 wheelers, then two wheelers with training wheels, then two wheelers, then mtorbikes. All along, there parents and/or coaches are guiding them.
You are absolutely correct, it is her decision in the end. BUT WHY TEMPT HER??????? If someone offers a kid sex or drugs, do you think we could share the responsibility around a little? Or should we do something about the person who offers??? Yes, we already do. Laws have been made accordingly.


You are absolutley right- it is her, and her parents decision. But why tempt her you ask??? Why force a 4 or 5 year old child to get on a dirtbike and jump a 30 foot gap???? That child really hasnt made a choice to go do it- their parents have made the choice that this is what they want their kids doing. (Personally I can't wait to get my son a 50cc dirtbike- he's only 22 months old). I never said that these kids didnt get training- I know they dont just get thrown on a track. On the other side- what is the best course to train a BASE jumper? Right now the consensus is that you need 200 skydiving jumps (I'm pretty sure thats the number I remember seeing). But maybe giving someone a really good ground school and then having them jump off a relativley easy (in BASE terms) object might not be a bad idea. I know I have no experience. I'm sure people out there think that letting a students first skydive be an AFF jump is crazy- they've never jumped before, they only have the instructors holding them, and they have to fly the canopy by themselves (w/ radio help). Hey, they've never flown a canopy before right? Pretty dangerous wouldnt you say? I'm sure that's why the AFP program was put into affect- get the student to do 3 tandems, they get to help fly the canopy and learn- but there are still students out there that don't make a tandem- they jump right into AFF.
And for the record- the law may exist- but the only reason Jimmy would be held responsible (if something happened to Clair) would be because its "BASE Jumping." It's just considered too extreme by "whuffos." Any kid who breaks his back skiing, snowboarding, skateboarding, dirtbike racing, etc....thier parents arent going to jail for putting their kids lives at risk. But you throw that same kid of a BASE object and they get hurt- gaurantee the law gets involved and people are going to jail.


The sole intention, is learning to fly.Condition grounded, but determined to try.Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies.Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit.

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Do you really think that the parents are putting their kids on these 30 foot jumps without any prior training? Don't you think they have been learning all along and working up to that point? This is putting a 16 year old girl off of an ANTENNA. Not a BRIDGE or something more forgiving. In skydiving, our instructors don't just push us out of the plane and say "GOOD LUCK!" don't forget to use your 'seatbelts'! This is an entirely different situation, and until you find yourself faced with the risks BASE jumping WILL throw at you, you have no idea how to relate.

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Been faced with some of them, and still don't think risk to oneself and extent of preparation are the sorts of things that make an act ethical or not. I also understand that ethics is one of those things that's just different for different people. So....

:)

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Ok one more time- I know that these kids are trained to ride dirtbikes. But what one parent considers enough training to make thier kid jump a 30 foot gap, might not be enough training for another parent. It's all about comfort level. And everyone has to understand, that thier comfort level is not everyone elses.
For example, when my buddy and I got our motorcycle license (we both took the same rider education class)- his comfort level was riding around the back streets by his house for a week. My comfort level was to go riding- on a highway in traffic. Figured the best way to learn was to go do it. Niether one of us is right- we just had different comfort levels.And before everyone jumps all over this- I am not saying motorcylce riding is as dangerous as BASE jumping! I am just making a comparison about training and comfort levels.
Maybe jumping off a span for your first BASE jump is what your comfort level dictates- apparently jumping off an antennae was within this girls comfort level. I understand that an A is more dangerous than an S. Doesn't make you or her right. Personally (if I was within weight limits) and I could find someone to take me, I would probably jump off a bridge. I feel that would be in my comfort level. An antennae, building, or wall would be well out of my comfort level (at least until I got more training).
And please dont tell me that I can't relate to the dangers of BASE- I may never have jumped (Skydiving or BASE) but I know how to handle myself in crisis situations. I'm not saying that I would be able to handle every bad situation that BASE could throw my way (and apparently, neither can expert BASE jumpers- after reading the BASE fatality list) but within the knowledge of myself and how I handle bad, even life threatening situations, I believe that I would be able to react accordingly to try and save my ass.
Ya know, I said I was gonna stay out of Speakers Corner because you can't effectivley argue a point in a chat forum- and damnit, here I am trying to argue a point...this sucks:)


The sole intention, is learning to fly.Condition grounded, but determined to try.Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies.Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit.

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Ok one more time- I know that these kids are trained to ride dirtbikes. But what one parent considers enough training to make thier kid jump a 30 foot gap, might not be enough training for another parent. It's all about comfort level. And everyone has to understand, that thier comfort level is not everyone elses.
For example, when my buddy and I got our motorcycle license (we both took the same rider education class)- his comfort level was riding around the back streets by his house for a week. My comfort level was to go riding- on a highway in traffic. Figured the best way to learn was to go do it. Niether one of us is right- we just had different comfort levels.And before everyone jumps all over this- I am not saying motorcylce riding is as dangerous as BASE jumping! I am just making a comparison about training and comfort levels.
Maybe jumping off a span for your first BASE jump is what your comfort level dictates- apparently jumping off an antennae was within this girls comfort level. I understand that an A is more dangerous than an S. Doesn't make you or her right. Personally (if I was within weight limits) and I could find someone to take me, I would probably jump off a bridge. I feel that would be in my comfort level. An antennae, building, or wall would be well out of my comfort level (at least until I got more training).
And please dont tell me that I can't relate to the dangers of BASE- I may never have jumped (Skydiving or BASE) but I know how to handle myself in crisis situations. I'm not saying that I would be able to handle every bad situation that BASE could throw my way (and apparently, neither can expert BASE jumpers- after reading the BASE fatality list) but within the knowledge of myself and how I handle bad, even life threatening situations, I believe that I would be able to react accordingly to try and save my ass.
Ya know, I said I was gonna stay out of Speakers Corner because you can't effectivley argue a point in a chat forum- and damnit, here I am trying to argue a point...this sucks:)


The sole intention, is learning to fly.Condition grounded, but determined to try.Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies.Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit.

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But what one parent considers enough training to make thier kid jump a 30 foot gap, might not be enough training for another parent.



Your child isn't old enough for you to know that you don't make a kid jump a 30 foot gap.

For example, if you offer a child a choice between something s/he really does not want to do and a beating, the child will take the beating.

It is possible for parents to lead their kids into areas where they would not go on their own, and even to obtain excellence from those kids in whatever it is they've been led to, but a child who doesn't want to partake, won't.

I speak as the mother of a now 21-year old girl-child who never gave me any choice but to read all the books I could find about child development and psychology.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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Your child isn't old enough for you to know that you don't make a kid jump a 30 foot gap.


Thanks for trying to tell me what I do or don't know about parenting. Personally I take offense to what you are trying to say- you don't know me or how much I know about parenting my own child. My parents had the same disrespect to question my parenting ability- we don't really talk much anymore. So let's leave out what I or you know about parenting.
I've seen many parents force their children to do things they dont want to. I doubt many 4 or 5 year old kids want to jump dirtbikes. It was an idea instilled in their mind by their parents. Not a thought or want created by the child.
The poiont was- a 4 or 5 year old is being pushed into a sport that thier parents want them to be in. A 16 year old girl choosing to BASE jump on her own, is another story. But again, we dont know what is going through Clairs mind- as I said before, she could be well educated, well- rounded 16 year old, making to her, what is a comfortable and educted decision. Or she could be an immature, not so bright 16 year old trying to impress someone.
None of us here knows whats going on in her head. Do I think every 16 year old kid should be allowed to BASE jump? Hell no- becuase most of them are too immature to understand what they are getting themselves into. But are there 16 year olds who have common sense, intelligence, and maturity that could be trusted to make the decision to BASE jump? I believe that there are.
It's all a matter of perspective. In my view, if Clair and her family are well educted about the dangers of BASE jumping, and they have made an educated decision to let Clair do it, then so be it. That is thier decision to make. Apparently, there are alot of people that think she, and her family are making a very bad decision. That is your perspective on the situation. Again- doesn't make any of us right. It makes us who we are.
For the comparison again- I think buying a 50cc dirtbike for my kid (at whatever age I deem him competant enough to ride- could be 4, could be 5, maybe not until he's 11) a good decision for my family. I'm sure there are a ton of parents out there that think I am absolutley nuts, and I should have childrens services called becuase I want to put my kid on a dangerous dirtbike. It's all about perspective. Mine, yours, everyone elses- they are all different- but nobody is right.


The sole intention, is learning to fly.Condition grounded, but determined to try.Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies.Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit.

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emails:

(from Clair)

I am not mad in any way shape or form. you started me
on my way to accomplishing my dream.

is there any way that i can help you research this?

Could I possibly talk to more lawyers and find out if
there is any thing all of us could sign saying that
you are not to blame if i did get hurt.

did you only talk to one person about this?

I know how one lawyer can make it sound like you might
spend the rest of your life in jail, but i would like
to get a couple more opinions on this subject if that
is ok with you.

i will get back to you with what i find out. this
means the world to me and will do everything in my
power to straiten all this out.

clair

--- jimmy halliday wrote:

> Hey Clair,
> I did talk to a lawyer and it is with much regret
> that I have to stop teaching you to BASE jump until
> you are 18. That's just a year and a couple months.
> In the meantime, you should come out to the
> dropzone and learn to skydive. You're gonna be a
> good BASE jumper, and you'll be doing this your
> whole life.
>
> Just remember that I said from
> the beginning that I wanted to do this partly for
> publicity and that at any time I might decide to
> quit the instruction. You stuck your jump and I
> would have continued but I don't want to end up in
> court against the state of California.
>
> .
>
> later,
> jimmy


If her's is the next generation of lawmakers, I'd say that someday Clair and her friends will legally jump the park.

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Let me rephrase it then:

You don't know what you're talking about.

I was trying to be kind about what is a factually ignorant statement that you've made more than once.

Your reaction--and your explanation therefor--indicates you have an issue that has nothing to do with me or the topic of this thread.

As for the rest of your post, I find it unworthy of comment.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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I doubt many 4 or 5 year old kids want to jump dirtbikes. It was an idea instilled in their mind by their parents. Not a thought or want created by the child.



this really covers 2 areas.

first, whose idea really was it?
it's extremely doubtful it was the childs.

second, does the child wish to do it?
I'm with RL here. I doubt you could FORCE them into it. GUILT might work, but not indefinately. the child that's jumping the big gaps must want to do it.

Quote


For the comparison again- I think buying a 50cc dirtbike for my kid (at whatever age I deem him competant enough to ride- could be 4, could be 5, maybe not until he's 11) a good decision for my family. I'm sure there are a ton of parents out there that think I am absolutley nuts, and I should have childrens services called becuase I want to put my kid on a dangerous dirtbike.



assuming your child has never ridden a bike...
would you buy the dirtbike, talk to him, explain safety, maybe show him a video, then take him to that 30 foot gap and say "have at it?"

I really would expect you to do the tricycle, bicycle with training wheels, bicycle, motorbike progression.

the BASE community has lost many friends and thus struggled to find ways to prevent additional tragedies. we need a way to teach people how to handle their parachute and what to do when things get ugly. this, in a sport where the whole jump to landing lasts maybe 20 sec.

we have not found a comparable tricycle, bicycle with training wheels, bicycle, motorbike progression. it's either the whole enchilada or none.

believe me, we WANT a better method. (actually, I'd consider taking it!)

most BASE jumpers are extremely indiviualistic, hating to be limited by "authorities."

please don't continue venting on the small community you would like to join. a dose of humility tends to get much better results.

hope that helps your perspective!
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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In the meantime, you should come out to the dropzone and learn to skydive. You're gonna be a good BASE jumper, and you'll be doing this your whole life.



Jimmy, if you had just said and recommended this at the outset I doubt many people here would have had a problem with it.

I know I wouldn't have.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

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I have two teenage daughters. Each is an exceptional athlete for their age and gender. As a parent, I feel full responsibility in everything they experience. Until they are 18, I have no right to ever give permission to anyone to teach them about an illegal sport.

All teenagers are vulnerable. They will follow the path of any idiot if it allows them to experience something that makes them feel good - especially if their parents don't object. I face the reality that my girls may drink and partake in drugs, they may have underage sex. But what if I give permission for them to experience these "illegal" activities? Do you think you would be doing them a favor by teaching them how to party responsibly? How about showing them how to have safe sex? It's always f**ckin' AMAZED me when someone that is without children has an opinion of how someone with should be raising them. By stepping past the parental line, you have (w/ permission) interfered.

I do understand the eager feeling to teach a young, knowledgeable girl how to perform well in an intense sport that involves mostly adults. There is definitely a feeling of pride on accomplishment. The mixture of underage and illegal? That is a job solely for her parents. By the way, it would be nice to hear from her parents directly on all this. I may be mistaken, but I didn't read anything on Dad's stance.

You have placed Clair in an arena. In this arena, she has been convinced that it's all going to be OK with your help. Sounds like "control", which is the very thing you spoke against early on. This kind of control reeks of manipulation.

If either of my daughters died today in a climbing accident, it would be sickening. Seeing the reaction from the rest of the family and her friends would be even more agonizing. It's the old analogy of throwing a pebble in the pond. Your actions affect many.

You have had enough time to teach Clair an introduction to the sport - right? Take the time to talk to the families of our dead comrades. You stated that you jumped with Franky. Go ahead and give Rikki a call and ask her how it felt to loose a son at such a young age. Yea, I know, his situation was different but he's still dead due to circumstances surrounding the sport. He still has a mom that will wonder what he could have accomplished to this point.

I challenge you Jimmy. Start interviewing the parents and immediate families of dead BASE jumpers. In fact Jimmy, maybe you could compile a video to show future students. If they can't handle that reality, they don't belong. How about it Mr Halliday?

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[Side-bar]

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illegal sport



There are a growing number of "legal" places to BASE jump

[end Side-bar]

I do agree that the individual's parent should not be allowing this to happen.
Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

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My apologies - illegal in most area's of the United States of America, but legal sites more than likely won't continue if enough 16 year olds start participating.

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My aplogies - illegal in most area's of the United States of America,



BASE jumping is not a Crime, though tresspassing is illegal...


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but more than likely won't continue if enough 16 year olds start participating.



Agreed
Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

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My aplogies - illegal in most area's of the United States of America,



BASE jumping is not a Crime, though tresspassing is illegal...

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but more than likely won't continue if enough 16 year olds start participating.



Agreed



Totally disagreed, or drugs would be legal, drinking and driving would be legal--there's a laundry list if the sole criterion is "enough people are doing it."

There was a time when children were not protected. And from a very early age, they were given hands-on education in those things they were not protected from. For better or worse, those days are gone.

Kids are actually pretty smart and capable. But they are not capable of understanding consequences simply because they are kids. I see a lot of putative adults posting on these forums who don't truly comprehend that parachuting can kill them. If they don't, why would you expect such comprehension of a child?

It doesn't matter whether BASE is legal or not. Until the fatality rate comes down a whole lot, it's not going to become an acceptable pastime for children.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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And from a very early age, they were given hands-on education in those things they were not protected from.



it seems strange for the grammar policewoman to end a sentence with a preposition. ;)

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Kids are actually pretty smart and capable. But they are not capable of understanding consequences simply because they are kids.



a couple of months ago, a medical story got some press coverage. some folks who study the brain determined that the risk assessment part does NOT full mature until the early 20's.

the news spun it as a possible justification to raise the driving age. (a Vietnam vet at work pointed out that's why the military prefers YOUNG recruits.)

the research suggests we need to use care when training young adults without feeling guilty about "picking" on them.
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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