Sean621 0
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TVPB 0
Your point is only valid if it does not discriminate. What does this mean?
A fatigued driver should pay for their own rescue following an accident, as should a drunk driver, an inexperienced driver driving beyond their abilities, etc. So should tired and drunk people in general. Throw in people who smoke, have sex, live in polluted cities, put themselves under immense stress whilst pursuing grand careers. As should. . . . . . .
blah blah blah.
It is ONLY fair if all people are treated equally.
And since my tax money HAS been used to rescue the above examples that I have mentioned. I not only feel but I AM entitled to be rescued at the cost of the tax payer if I have an accident.
Add to this point that no man has the right to decide whether someone should be rescued or not. I have heard people say that BASE jumpers should be left to fend for themselves.
BTW - since my tax has been used to fund wars, and dictatorships, and . . . . .well, lets not even go there.
Following is my reponse to a story on ABC - it talks about rescue. As usual, just me being opionated!!!
ABC TV Program A Story
-----------------------------------------
Back to the subject:
- RESCUES being a drain on resources. Well, that is one of my favourites. People who make that comment are generally politicians, people with an underlying agendas, or people who have no idea. Professional rescuers are trained for exactly that role, they are paid for it, they have accepted that responsibility. Just like a coal miner digs coal to heat YOUR house and give power to your appliances. Do you worry about miners when you turn the lights on? Just like the soldier who defends American Imperialism. One of the steps in rescue is risk management. Remember your first aid course - DRABC. Don't tell me you have not done first aid. Now that is irresponsible. D = Danger. If it is too dangerous, you don't do the job unless you can manage the risk. Rescuers are the same - they are trained to assess the situation and to proceed if the risk is manageable. There is risk involved in everything we do. Our only choice is to manage it. BTW - I was an SES volunteer for a number of years. Our group was first on the scene at a number of road accidents. The accidents were caused by various factors including drunk driving, speeding, fatigue, etc. I busted by balls with my colleagues to try to help these people. Regardless what I thought of their activites, they were all human beings and deserved my efforts. They should all be treated as such. I also pay taxes. I have earned the right to be rescued. Have YOU volunteered to help other people???
As a BASE jumper, I would not mind paying for the full cost of my rescue, as long as EVERYONE ELSE who did something considered risky HAD TO PAY TOO. And I would get to decide if it is risky or not.
When a critical patient was brought into the emergency room, I bet Dr Glen didn't say, "Sorry, can't operate on that person, he was speeding. Since he broke the law, I'll just let him fend for himself". Not at all, I bet he used every bit of his skills and energy to save that persons life. No questions asked.
And what right do YOU or anyone else have to decide whose life gets saved and who dies? This is an anti-Christian philosophy. Damn it, it is downright inhumane. You are either a redneck or an animal.
The second part of two posts.
I bet someone said Capt Cook was a stupid loser for sailing around the world to find some dirt in some bum *$%^ place too far from home!!!!! Geez I am glad he took those risks. I very much like the place he found (after the DUtch)!!!
- Risk, most people do not understand the concept of risk and risk management. This is especially relevant in todays 3rd party liability, not my responsibility society. People just assume something is unsafe because they have no real understanding of the processes the underlie the activity. I will draw a parallel between driving cars and BASE jumping. Assuming there is no other people/animals on the road, it is possible to drive for a lifetime with minimal/no risk. Lets introduce a few variables: the road is wet, the brakes are wearing, the tyres are worn, we are late for an appointment, we are tired, we have been involved in personal conflict, we have exams coming up, geez it is exhilirating driving fast, young driver showing off to mates, powerful car, alcohol, the road has potholes, etc, etc. See, the risk is increasing and there is more chance of an accident. BASE jumping is similar. You CAN BASE jump for an eternity with absolutely minimal chance of an accident. Then people start introducing risks through variables such as insufficient preparation, express advancement, poor judgement, tired, want to go faster, gear not maintained. . . etc. Doesn't that sound just like driving a car?? Granted, the margins are less. But not nearly as much as you may think.
A fatigued driver should pay for their own rescue following an accident, as should a drunk driver, an inexperienced driver driving beyond their abilities, etc. So should tired and drunk people in general. Throw in people who smoke, have sex, live in polluted cities, put themselves under immense stress whilst pursuing grand careers. As should. . . . . . .
blah blah blah.
It is ONLY fair if all people are treated equally.
And since my tax money HAS been used to rescue the above examples that I have mentioned. I not only feel but I AM entitled to be rescued at the cost of the tax payer if I have an accident.
Add to this point that no man has the right to decide whether someone should be rescued or not. I have heard people say that BASE jumpers should be left to fend for themselves.
BTW - since my tax has been used to fund wars, and dictatorships, and . . . . .well, lets not even go there.
Following is my reponse to a story on ABC - it talks about rescue. As usual, just me being opionated!!!
ABC TV Program A Story
-----------------------------------------
Back to the subject:
- RESCUES being a drain on resources. Well, that is one of my favourites. People who make that comment are generally politicians, people with an underlying agendas, or people who have no idea. Professional rescuers are trained for exactly that role, they are paid for it, they have accepted that responsibility. Just like a coal miner digs coal to heat YOUR house and give power to your appliances. Do you worry about miners when you turn the lights on? Just like the soldier who defends American Imperialism. One of the steps in rescue is risk management. Remember your first aid course - DRABC. Don't tell me you have not done first aid. Now that is irresponsible. D = Danger. If it is too dangerous, you don't do the job unless you can manage the risk. Rescuers are the same - they are trained to assess the situation and to proceed if the risk is manageable. There is risk involved in everything we do. Our only choice is to manage it. BTW - I was an SES volunteer for a number of years. Our group was first on the scene at a number of road accidents. The accidents were caused by various factors including drunk driving, speeding, fatigue, etc. I busted by balls with my colleagues to try to help these people. Regardless what I thought of their activites, they were all human beings and deserved my efforts. They should all be treated as such. I also pay taxes. I have earned the right to be rescued. Have YOU volunteered to help other people???
As a BASE jumper, I would not mind paying for the full cost of my rescue, as long as EVERYONE ELSE who did something considered risky HAD TO PAY TOO. And I would get to decide if it is risky or not.
When a critical patient was brought into the emergency room, I bet Dr Glen didn't say, "Sorry, can't operate on that person, he was speeding. Since he broke the law, I'll just let him fend for himself". Not at all, I bet he used every bit of his skills and energy to save that persons life. No questions asked.
And what right do YOU or anyone else have to decide whose life gets saved and who dies? This is an anti-Christian philosophy. Damn it, it is downright inhumane. You are either a redneck or an animal.
The second part of two posts.
I bet someone said Capt Cook was a stupid loser for sailing around the world to find some dirt in some bum *$%^ place too far from home!!!!! Geez I am glad he took those risks. I very much like the place he found (after the DUtch)!!!
- Risk, most people do not understand the concept of risk and risk management. This is especially relevant in todays 3rd party liability, not my responsibility society. People just assume something is unsafe because they have no real understanding of the processes the underlie the activity. I will draw a parallel between driving cars and BASE jumping. Assuming there is no other people/animals on the road, it is possible to drive for a lifetime with minimal/no risk. Lets introduce a few variables: the road is wet, the brakes are wearing, the tyres are worn, we are late for an appointment, we are tired, we have been involved in personal conflict, we have exams coming up, geez it is exhilirating driving fast, young driver showing off to mates, powerful car, alcohol, the road has potholes, etc, etc. See, the risk is increasing and there is more chance of an accident. BASE jumping is similar. You CAN BASE jump for an eternity with absolutely minimal chance of an accident. Then people start introducing risks through variables such as insufficient preparation, express advancement, poor judgement, tired, want to go faster, gear not maintained. . . etc. Doesn't that sound just like driving a car?? Granted, the margins are less. But not nearly as much as you may think.
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck
The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.
The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.
Sean621 0
mate...take a chill pill...who says whats risky...6 people get killed in the UK every year putting on their socks...
http://www.extreme-on-demand.com
TVPB 0
Sean
<<<<>>>>
I don't understand your response at all.
Who says what is risky? We all do!!!!!!!! Every time we make a decision to do something, we are either consciously or subconsciously assessing the risk. The potential problem is, we all make that assessment based on personal experiences, skill, and knowledge. This is why people assess risk in different ways. Rock climbers have ratings for climbs. Why? Because it is a subjective guide to the difficulty (and risk) of various climbs. Industries measure risk ALL the time as part of Occupational Health and Safety requirements.
r.e. rescue costs, I was only making the point that I am happy to participate in a user pays system if that system is relevant to all activities. Don't you think this is a fair point? I elaborated on the ABC show as the audience is general society, not just jumpers. So you have to consider the response in context.
Please explain what you meant.
Thanks.
p.s The average 6 must of had REALLY smelly feet. Oops, that joke stinks!!!!!!!
<<<<
I don't understand your response at all.
Who says what is risky? We all do!!!!!!!! Every time we make a decision to do something, we are either consciously or subconsciously assessing the risk. The potential problem is, we all make that assessment based on personal experiences, skill, and knowledge. This is why people assess risk in different ways. Rock climbers have ratings for climbs. Why? Because it is a subjective guide to the difficulty (and risk) of various climbs. Industries measure risk ALL the time as part of Occupational Health and Safety requirements.
r.e. rescue costs, I was only making the point that I am happy to participate in a user pays system if that system is relevant to all activities. Don't you think this is a fair point? I elaborated on the ABC show as the audience is general society, not just jumpers. So you have to consider the response in context.
Please explain what you meant.
Thanks.
p.s The average 6 must of had REALLY smelly feet. Oops, that joke stinks!!!!!!!
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck
The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.
The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.
Sean621 0
yeah those feet must really pong...i just re read your post and get whata you mean now...derrr...we in the UK live in free rescue cost society so when someone says they ar happy to pay (and i dont get the full gist of their message) i shot first and asked questions later...
http://www.extreme-on-demand.com
GaryP 0
To those that think that taxpayers pay for these rescues... you are wrong.
In Australia all ambulance rides and search/rescue operations ARE CHARGED TO THE INJURED IN FULL. Taxpayers do not pay for these except if the injured is a recipient of Social Security (pension or other benefit). Taxpayers are charged in full and need to have ambulance insurance to guard against these costs. The only exception to this is the state of Queensland which does fund it's rescues from the public purse.
The main drain of services seen in Australia, especially in the Summer months are... fishermen who get swept off rocks, bushwalkers who get hopelessly lost, tourists who get out of their depth in the surf, football injuries.
At least with a BASE accident there's no time and money being wasted searching for the person as locating the injured is never a problem.
g.
In Australia all ambulance rides and search/rescue operations ARE CHARGED TO THE INJURED IN FULL. Taxpayers do not pay for these except if the injured is a recipient of Social Security (pension or other benefit). Taxpayers are charged in full and need to have ambulance insurance to guard against these costs. The only exception to this is the state of Queensland which does fund it's rescues from the public purse.
The main drain of services seen in Australia, especially in the Summer months are... fishermen who get swept off rocks, bushwalkers who get hopelessly lost, tourists who get out of their depth in the surf, football injuries.
At least with a BASE accident there's no time and money being wasted searching for the person as locating the injured is never a problem.
g.
"Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it"
.
.
op5e 0
What about the multi million dollar rescues where the navy has to get involved and get a solo sailer etc..
Btw what do people in OZ do for insurance normally to cover these costs. Just the normal abulance cover or do you have any other suggestions.
Just wanted to add. It looks like the QLD chopper is not for profit so if it rescues you does it not charge?
http://www.energex.com.au/community_rescue/the_service/index.html
Btw what do people in OZ do for insurance normally to cover these costs. Just the normal abulance cover or do you have any other suggestions.
Just wanted to add. It looks like the QLD chopper is not for profit so if it rescues you does it not charge?
http://www.energex.com.au/community_rescue/the_service/index.html
TVPB 0
Hi Gary
I was referring to the rescue, not the ambulance services. Yes, as far as I know too, ALL ambulance services do bill their rescues.
It is true to say that many/most air services do try to recoup costs as they are expensive to run. But if they did charge all the time, why are they constantly seeking donations & sponsorships, and you often hear that they are badly in debt? Yes, there are many other expenses associated but a professional business would factor all those costs into the hourly running of such an aircraft.
I know for a fact that many rescues are done at the expense of the rescue organisation. This ranges from surf life saving to marine (boating) to road accidents ($$$ are generally pursued through insurance companies in this common case).
r.e. the search and rescue example - a lot of S&R is done by volunteers such as the SES under the guidance/control of Police. My involvement was a few years ago now so things certainly may have changed, but we were advised by the Police that in general, tax payers and donations/sponsorships funded the rescues.
I get the impression that "arbitrary decisions" are made on a case by case basis regarding many rescue activities. It also seems that if an incident makes it into media, then it has a higher chance of getting billed. Perhaps to scare people off?????
I guess the best thing to do is make sure you have insurance, make sure you are not breaking the law (as the insurance often becomes invalid and you shouldn't break the law anyway), and try not to get into that situation in the first place. Easier said than done when you are a rock fisherman!!!
Gary - I'd be interested to hear where you get your info from. Just to clarify the reliability of your source and the age of my info. One thing that often occurs is that some people who work for an organisation, have no idea what actually goes on in their organisation. Hence, they may give you/me misleading information.
Hope the remainder of your trip went well.
ps. Sean621 - no worries. I'm an opinionated prick anyway and deserve to get told occassionally. I just like to clarify what people say for my own benefit. I do get it wrong . . . .every . . . . now and. . . . . again . . . and again!!!
I was referring to the rescue, not the ambulance services. Yes, as far as I know too, ALL ambulance services do bill their rescues.
It is true to say that many/most air services do try to recoup costs as they are expensive to run. But if they did charge all the time, why are they constantly seeking donations & sponsorships, and you often hear that they are badly in debt? Yes, there are many other expenses associated but a professional business would factor all those costs into the hourly running of such an aircraft.
I know for a fact that many rescues are done at the expense of the rescue organisation. This ranges from surf life saving to marine (boating) to road accidents ($$$ are generally pursued through insurance companies in this common case).
r.e. the search and rescue example - a lot of S&R is done by volunteers such as the SES under the guidance/control of Police. My involvement was a few years ago now so things certainly may have changed, but we were advised by the Police that in general, tax payers and donations/sponsorships funded the rescues.
I get the impression that "arbitrary decisions" are made on a case by case basis regarding many rescue activities. It also seems that if an incident makes it into media, then it has a higher chance of getting billed. Perhaps to scare people off?????
I guess the best thing to do is make sure you have insurance, make sure you are not breaking the law (as the insurance often becomes invalid and you shouldn't break the law anyway), and try not to get into that situation in the first place. Easier said than done when you are a rock fisherman!!!
Gary - I'd be interested to hear where you get your info from. Just to clarify the reliability of your source and the age of my info. One thing that often occurs is that some people who work for an organisation, have no idea what actually goes on in their organisation. Hence, they may give you/me misleading information.
Hope the remainder of your trip went well.
ps. Sean621 - no worries. I'm an opinionated prick anyway and deserve to get told occassionally.
I just like to clarify what people say for my own benefit. I do get it wrong . . . .every . . . . now and. . . . . again . . . and again!!! Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck
The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.
The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.
GaryP 0
Tom - I can't remember my source - have just always known that ambulance services are a charged commodity as I remember seeing some prices quoted in some literature somewhere for both road and air ambulance services. This is also confirmed in my ambulance insurance literature. I didn't give it much thought about the other organizations that may be involved in a rescue and had just lumped them into the one category of "Ambulance".
Treeboy clarified the QLD situation for me a while back. These are paid for by the QLD taxpayers.
My ambulance insurance costs me $27 each year to pay for any costs involved in ferrying my ass from anywhere in Oz. Makes sense.
g.
Treeboy clarified the QLD situation for me a while back. These are paid for by the QLD taxpayers.
My ambulance insurance costs me $27 each year to pay for any costs involved in ferrying my ass from anywhere in Oz. Makes sense.
g.
"Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it"
.
.
cesslon 0
QuoteIt is true to say that many/most air services do try to recoup costs as they are expensive to run. But if they did charge all the time, why are they constantly seeking donations & sponsorships, and you often hear that they are badly in debt? Yes, there are many other expenses associated but a professional business would factor all those costs into the hourly running of such an aircraft.
they charge and need donations because they might only have 1 accident but they need multiple choppers and multiple workers,
they always must have extra choppers on stand by this is incase an accident happens while a second is out.
each chopper is generally worth several million $'s, they arnt bomb skydiving planes they are extremly Hi tech, night vission, twin jet turbine engines, hundreds of thousends of $'s worth of medical equipment etc
then factor in about 10 pilots, each helicopter needs a co pilot so say ya have 2 choppers in a area you need 4 pilots per shift and 3 shifts per day
then ya need mechanics, technicians, cleaners, etc
and yes you can get hit up for a $30k bill if you have a car accident then get air lifted to hospital, same goes for ambulances, ambo's are usually 2 to 4 times more expensive then taxi's
is pretty bad when ya think of it that a modern country like australia that is without homeless people like say the US or somalia etc still has to charge a fortune for an ambo ride
op5e 0
Getting off the thread here. But we have good social welfare and do get alot of medical fees paid for. If it is only $27 a year no one has a reason not to pay it. I would be interested to know more about the airlifting, if it is $30000 is this covered in the ambo fees.
Also we do have homeless people in Australia.
Also we do have homeless people in Australia.
In Canada, I recall, search and rescue is not charged to the rescued. Authorities will deliver you to the nearest "sensible place" - usually emergency, and then it's your (insurance's) problem. It applies to both citizens and visitors.
TVPB 0
<<>>
There called parachutists aren't they???
p.s. Many places in Europe rescue you and take you to hospital. No $$$
Then you sort it out yourself.
There called parachutists aren't they???
p.s. Many places in Europe rescue you and take you to hospital. No $$$
Then you sort it out yourself.
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck
The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.
The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.
Mate of mine who was airlifted after a BASE accident in Sydney didn't have to pay any fees whatsoever. I worked 2 hangars down from the rescue guys, also with choppers, and I went to speak to them about it. I asked why they didn't charge and they said they didn't want people dying because they thought they would have to pay for a chopper. That was Wespac Rescue in Sydney.
CJP
Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people
CJP
Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people
Jasmin 0
Bad example Chris.
Many of you may remember Slim's infamous cliff strike...![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]")
That rescue service was responsible for the footage of the incident ending up at channel nine and jimmy's subsequent arrest, not to mention there was an attempt at trial to make Jimmy pay for the cost of Slim's rescue by the Westpac Rescue chopper.
Like I said, bad example.
Many of you may remember Slim's infamous cliff strike...
That rescue service was responsible for the footage of the incident ending up at channel nine and jimmy's subsequent arrest, not to mention there was an attempt at trial to make Jimmy pay for the cost of Slim's rescue by the Westpac Rescue chopper.
Like I said, bad example.
xj
"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."
"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."
Trae 1
inreply 2 "If you are doing risky activities, be prepared to pay. Its not the general populations responsibility to cover your ass. "
If this idea were allowed to be par for the course there's gonna be a lot of rotting corpses around cause we as a society couldn't be bothered to go pick em up. Hopefully most of us still give a shit about injured people even if it was their own stupid fault they got into such a predicanment in the first place.
Good samaritans or robbing skunks .... take your pick . There's probably other options even worse than just leaving them there and it wouldn't be the first time BASE mates have run & left their injured buddies to rot or die.
When the people look like ants thats them eating you.
If this idea were allowed to be par for the course there's gonna be a lot of rotting corpses around cause we as a society couldn't be bothered to go pick em up. Hopefully most of us still give a shit about injured people even if it was their own stupid fault they got into such a predicanment in the first place.
Good samaritans or robbing skunks .... take your pick . There's probably other options even worse than just leaving them there and it wouldn't be the first time BASE mates have run & left their injured buddies to rot or die.
When the people look like ants thats them eating you.
cesslon 0
Hi Jasmin
what charges was jimmy arrested with ?
also are you still working on the ariel video ?
what charges was jimmy arrested with ?
also are you still working on the ariel video ?
Jasmin 0
Still working on the arials and wingsuiting clips, but am off to Europe to catch up with my taller half, so should have some nice new footage to add to it when I get back.
xj
"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."
"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."
cesslon 0
awesome,
don't let anyone take to many risks just for a good shot lol.
I want fancy stuff, not just a back flip or a front flip, plenty of twists and twirls with flips in between, if you have any dwain footage that you have the right to distribute that would be great.
don't let anyone take to many risks just for a good shot lol.
I want fancy stuff, not just a back flip or a front flip, plenty of twists and twirls with flips in between, if you have any dwain footage that you have the right to distribute that would be great.
Jasmin 0
There's some stuff on there that would make even Dwain grin....
As for putting life and limb at risk- 3 snakes, one lizzard, some sketchy as all sh*t scree with a 1000m drop off the right, one near-head on accident, and all for 30seconds of footage....its been an interesting trip.
As for putting life and limb at risk- 3 snakes, one lizzard, some sketchy as all sh*t scree with a 1000m drop off the right, one near-head on accident, and all for 30seconds of footage....its been an interesting trip.
xj
"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."
"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."
cesslon 0
cool,
what kinda time frame we looking at for a release ?
weeks, months, years ?
what kinda time frame we looking at for a release ?
weeks, months, years ?
TomAiello 25
I've removed portions of this thread and moved them to Speakers' Corner. You can find those posts here.
its a fact of life that what we do isnt normal to a large percentage of the population...it frightens them... so they will try and defend themselves against it with ways of making it harder to do...like cost recovery for rescues.
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