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TomSpoon

More of Sabre opening problems. It's no secret

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I got lots of new material for my collection of Sabre quotes.
Seeing as the packing, design,pocket slider, stochastic variable thing has been beaten to death,If you insist on an arguement. Please save it for the other thread.http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=906637;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread
Enjoy.

Sabres do bang open on occasions - one damaged my neck and I was wearing a normal helmet’

“I saw video of a sabre opening that resembled a bomb going off:”

“ The hard openings got so bad that I began to have a phobia about deploying.”

“I got a enormous spanking on a jump in Skydive Arizona a couple of years back. Was in such agony i had to spiral down to get the weight on my feet and *off* the inside of my thighs. Bruising was quite bad”

“Upon deployment I got absolutely SPANKED!!! Sore back, risers grazed my face and gave me a gash over my eye, threw my goggles around so I couldn't even identify my canopy's condition...I mean SPANKED”

“I bought a brand new Sabre 135 in Jan 2000, and it often opened hard, and really beat the shit out of my neck on one jump”

“Sabres have been known to slam their fair share of jumpers, “

“I had a Sabre and experienced a lot of hard openings”

“I would say I have had half a dozen hard openings, but when it slams, it slams”

“my first canopy was a saber 150 and it slammed me all the time! “

“ “When I had it relined, that's when it really started to pound me.”

“I have seen a Sabre open in about 50 feet. I was videoing the student and he didn't have line dump. It was a brutal opening.”

“I had a Sabre 190 which gave me a mild concussion on opening once”

“So far, the only actual account we have as to what "might" have occurred at opening time is from the person involved -………..
He is in ICU and in a few days we'll talk with him again to see if he can recall anything else.”

“i fractured my c6 on opening with a sabre135.”

“Every 30 or 40th or so opening would either slam me or be a rock and roll ride“

”although I did get slammed so hard it ripped my helmet right off once! “

“I have 150 jumps on one. The hard openings got so bad that I began to have a phobia about deploying “

“I had a Sabre and experienced a lot of hard openings. Didn't seem to matter how I packed it.”

“on the 170 its smack smack smack.”

“I have a Y2K Sabre150 with 200 jumps. The darn thing started spanking me BAD!”

“The Sabre was notorious for hard openings. I spent a couple of days on a couch with ice on my neck.”

“I've got about 50 jumps on Sabres, whacked four or five times out of that. No, I never could pack it not to whack,”

“ have a sabre 150 and have something like 150 jumps on it and I've only had two or three extremely hard openings.”

Sabres have a reputation for opening hard on occasions, and in my experience (250 jumps on Sabres), this is definitely deserved,”

“I don't care HOW you packed them, eventually you were going to get the shit smacked out of you.”

“I aquired bruises on my inner thighs and hips from one hard ass slammer Sabre opening....”


“had an extremely hard opening... And got knocked unconscious. When I woke up, I couldn't see anymore... “

“it was a massively hard opening. I've seen pics of ripped canopies but nothing like this.”

“I heard they will have hard openings... they weren't kidding. I jumped this canopy twice and the second opening rocked me.”

“I used to just cringe right before I threw the PC when I had my Sabre. You just knew it was coming and there was nothing you could do.”

“I packed his Sabre 170 ,to make a long story short he left in a van with lots of pretty lites on it “

“Yeah Sabres will do that. I had a hard opening on mine. 170, 1.45:1, opened so hard it broke the skin on my legs and left an outline of my legstraps.”

“I would still get an occasional spanker even with a pocket slider,”

“I have a Sabre 170 loaded at 1:1, and about 5 weeks ago I too had an opening that was so hard it left me groggy for a few moments. After about 230 uneventful jumps on that canopy, I had 2 brutal openings in 2 months”

“I had a VERY hard opening about 5 weeks ago. Didn't fully lose consciousness, but was unresponsive for some unknown amount of time. No serious injuries--very painful stress fracture of the sternum kept me on Vicoden for 3 weeks.”

“You may get slammed on occasion”

“The Sabre 1 is known for slamming people”

“Yes, sabres open hard from time to time.”

“yes sabres's are know to whack ya every once in a while”

“Yeah they open hard unexpectedly sometimes,”

“Sabres will occasionally open hard,”

“By reputation, some sabres open harder than others. “

“I got really hard openings every jump. “

“I got my teeth rattled a few times.”

“My back -- like 4 years later -- is still sore from a sabre opening”

“I don't like Sabress. All my experiences with Sabres's have been unpleasant. I primarily mean the openings,”

“I have experienced the Sabre Spank' on a 150, and have the X-rays to prove it..”

“I have a Sabre 190, and most of my opennigs just beat the crap out of me!!!”

“I jump a sabre-1 and it's given me bruises a couple times,”

“I have video of a sabre opening in about 75 feet, extremely hard “

“Openings were problematic at first,”

“A lot of people complain of hard openings,”

“Lots of u guys out there r trying to blame your hard Sabre openings on the pack job...”

“I have approximately 1,100 total jumps on sabre 150's and sabre 135's and have
experienced a handful of rather brisk openings and 2 of them were excruciating and kept me from jumping for the rest of the day.”

“Openings are not so great. In my opinion it would be one thing if it opened hard all the time or soft all the time but it does not. Some openings are good others are not”

“Pack carefully, handle the wraped up slider as you would an atomic bomb - as thats what it is! Let the thing slip everywhere then shove in the bag; You will be sorry..”

“but about 75% of the time, I get these opening that make me flinch and tighten up every muscle in my body in fear of the opening. Most Sunday nights, when I am driving home, my neck hurts like I was in a car accident, and I have bruises on the insides of my legs that just shouldn't be there... I have tried everything- rolling the nose 4-4, tight rolling the nose together, tight rolling the tail, stowing my lines tight, etc... Nothing helps, don't know what to say about the opening, but I can't wait until I get my PISA Hornet...”

“Openings have been brisk, but I've never been slammed (although I lent my rig to a friend and she said she was).”

“I've had a very bad opening about every two or three. No matter what I did, tens of rolls everywere or no rolls, spend 1 hour and a half packing it,use the tighest rubber bands ever, it used to hit me.”

“I had an instant canopy that knocked the wind from my body. I was in such pain that all I wanted to do was land. After landing discovered the leg straps had grazed the skin from my inner thighs. The next day I was barely able to stand and the black bruising around my thighs meant I looked like I was still wearing my harness.”

“I was wacked so hard that I had a compression fracture of T6 and a cracked T12 along with a neck sprain.”

“in my 90 jumps on it, I had 3 soft openings. This thing was killing me. I had it relined by PD as soon as I bought it and no matter who's advice I took or what I did, I was constantly seeing stars. I tried rolling the nose tightly all to one side and going to the back, I tried nothing with the nose, I tried splitting the nose, I rolled the tail unbelievably tight and still the openings stunk. After an opening where the slider came down fast enough to rip the rubber stops and put a rip in the slider and wrap itself around my face, so all I saw was the orange slider (nice backdrop for the stars), I got rid of it and bought a spectre 150, and will never look back.”

”Most of the openings on Sabres are ok, but it's those slammers! One in every 70 or so jumps, no matter how carefully you've packed, even if you've packed exactly the same as the last 70 pack jobs they can bite. I had one opening on my Sabre 135 that was so hard I thought I had broken a rib! I could give you plenty of examples of experiences friends of mine have had with bad Sabre openings... by and large the openings on the Sabre are fine but when they bite they're nasty!”

“Used to fly a Sabre, and the openings where so bad I had no intentions of ever buying another one”

“I jumped my 170 Sabre for about 40 times until I realized that my neck could handle about 50 more openings.”

“harder than the saber i used to fly and that spanked me on a regular basis.”


“This was welcome from the ever surprising Sabre slam that comes when you least expect it. “

“It just comes out of no where. Don't do anything different packing,and all the sudden your looking for the train....”

“the sabre has a reputation for hard openings”

“Any canopy that requires a modification to the slider to tame the openings has more than packing issues”


”i wouldn't wish one on my worst enemy....ok, maybe on my worst enemy, but nobody else...”

“it is the lightly loaded sabre's that tend to be more violent openings. “

“I have been whacked a few times on the 150 and 107”

“I've had a few harder openings,”

“I had one that tried to kill me. Saw a Racer completely ripped apart by one.Met a girl from Virginia that has scars on her head from the halo head thingy after breaking her neck.All on 170s.”

"Sabre 1 - reputation for hard openings - not all examples - can easily be tamed “

“My personal opinion is that the Sabre sucks. I can count the number of times I've been whacked under canopy on one hand and I think 4 out of the 5 whackers were under a Sabre.”

”I experienced the hard openings, still 'enjoying' one I had more than a month ago”

“I'm getting a bit scared to pull: my poor back.”

“best way to make a sabre open softer...
Sell it.”

“My Sabre 150 used to whack me every once in a while (bruised rib)”

“Mine didn't slam me too badly until I had it relined”

“I have had one extremely hard opening that about broke me in half,”

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not to add fuel to the fire, but I jump a Sabre 170 and love it, I've got about 150 on it and have never had anything resembling a hard opening... I pack for a living and have learned how to make them do my bidding... we had a rental at my drop zone (Sabre 150) that we called the punisher, it sent two people to the hospital and really hurt several more, I started jumping it so that I could figure it out... it spanked me so hard that I literally saw stars, we tried to pack it every way in the book, nothing helped, after we'd exhausted all of the options we finally measured the slider and determined that it was 2 inches too small.. upon reflection that should have been one of the first steps... anyway, we replaced it with a dome slider 2 inches larger and now it opens in what I would call a "positive" manner, but it doesn't hurt anymore. The tricks that I have learned that seem to work on these canopies are very simple and seem to work across the board; very first step, I tie the three rings to ensure even risers, may not do much, but it makes me feel good...I do not roll the nose, a lot of people swear by this, but in my experience, with zero P fabric, any rolling that you do will just come out in the "remove the air" step of packing... I get the nose cells as even as I can like when packing a stiletto and I stuff the cells elbow deep, and I mean deep, then I pull the slider all the way out over the nose and splay it out to cover the entire wind channel into the nose, then I give the tail a good and I mean good tight wrap... I pack as normal and pay a little more attention than normal with the stows, sometimes tripling them if I need to, without getting into the range of bag locking.... I know that these sound like really basic steps that most people are doing anyway, but on a Sabre I I tend to really keep an eye on the basics... I check the slider numerous times to ensure that it is all the way down on the poker chips...

if you are being slammed by your sabre, some things to check as part of the trouble shooting process

1. have someone else pack it and discuss with them the techniques that they are using, try different approaches, every canopy seems to have a bit of a personality

2. measure the slider and maybe get with a rigger to build you a larger slider that is within design parameters but will slow down the elapsed time between the slider being dominant and the canopy taking over

3. check the line trim, out of trim lines can cause radical differences in the designed opening sequence by changing the angle of attack of the nose

4. check the pilot chute, a worn pilot chute can actually cause a harder opening due to the fact that it doesn't have the ass to really get the d bag out there and fully stretched out prior to the canopy separating from the bag, I know, it's counter-intuitive, but I've seen hard openers cured with a new zero P pilot chute

5. if all else fails, document your trouble shooting and send it back to PD, they are generally very helpful and dont' want to see a slammer out there, bad for the sport and bad for their reputation


just my observations, for what they're worth

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:)
you sound like the new Marketing Director for,,,,,,

.... ANY other canopy manufacturer BESIDEs PD....
are you on someone else's payroll.....???:o
By the way.....
isn't YOUR main still a PD sabre??;).....Ooops.
I now recall,,, you DID change over to the Spectre some time ago...didn't you???
... edited to add oooops :o

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:)
you sound like the new Marketing Director for,,,,,,

.... ANY other canopy manufacturer BESIDEs PD....
are you on someone else's payroll.....???:o
By the way.....
isn't YOUR main still a PD sabre??;).....Ooops.
I now recall,,, you DID change over to the Spectre some time ago...didn't you???
... edited to add oooops :o



this guy makes me afraid to reline my sabre170 B| the opening are pretty good on mine.. except for the constant 180ies ;)

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You're spending a whole lotta time proving something that everyone already seems to know about a canopy that isn't even made anymore. Did a sabre kill your child or something? :P

Dave



Dave, Yes I have a lot of time on my hands. Lets just say that my situation is similar to skydiver51 who's jumping carreer has been ended by a Sabre 170. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=889215;search_string=skydiving%20and%20your%20neck;#889215 Though I hope to be back.
If you'll notice I never said anything personally about the Sabre but simply held up a mirror so everyone can see themselves.
It amazes me that someone can talk about a canopies poor opening characteristics in one sentence, than recommend it to a novice in the next. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=898077;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread
I don't have it in for PD They make some very nice products but the Sabre is what it is.

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but the Sabre is what it is.


Yes, a parachute designed over 15 years ago that was the first true 0-P canopy in the US market. As such, it makes sense that they designed it to have similar packing requirements to other canopies of it's day. F-111 canopies were built to open relatively quickly when they were new for a few reasons. As an F-111 canopy snivels, the fabric is being worn at a pretty high rate. Also, as the canopy gets more jumps on it, the openings become considerably slower. So if an F-111 canopy was made to have 1000 foot openings when it was new, within 200 jumps the jumper would have to make modifications to make it open in a resonable amount of time. The slippery fabric certainly makes it harder for people to control their pack jobs.

I think you hear more about Sabres than Monarchs and other similar canopies simply due to the number of Sabres on the market. That should tell you something about how successful the design was. If it really had as big of a problem as you want to make it seem, there's no way it would have been so successful.

When I worked for PD, we had a customer send his Sabre 150 in for evaluation because it opened too SLOWLY.

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I wish I knew how to address you all but I don't so here are my thought(s). I have about 500 jumps on a Sabre (after my Excalibur). The Sabre came out in 90/91 or so. It was the first successful (and long lived) ZP canopy (Nova, Monarch, etc). Yes, the Blue Track was earlier but if you really want an opening experience, jump one. The paradigm shift (IMO) is the attention that needed to be made to packing a higher wing loaded ZP canopy than the attention needed to pack a larger (often 200 sq. ft. or so) F-111 canopy. We learned alot about line stows, snatch force, pilot chute size/construction, and slider rebound with early ZP canopies than we had learned since squares were invented. Give the Sabre a break they were (and are) given the right application a great canopy!
Don't compare a P-51 to an F-16!
Perspective people, Perspective!

I'll shut up now.

Tim
FAA Master Rigger and a couple of ratings (in 2 countries)

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;)He siad "snatch"!

But seriously, I had two Sabres - they are still flying out there. They both were great - dunno if it was packing, the line sets, whatever - don't care. Only gave it up to go air-locked for stability in turbulence to exmand my jumping environment. My Sabre kept me on the ground in some conditions that my Vengence lets me fly right through. for most of the time I owned them, though, the sabres were kind to me! (knock wood)

Rox

________________________________________

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Let me see...I have personally owned 4 Sabres and jumped 6 different ones. I have jumped everysize from a 190 to a 120. I have put 400+ jumps on different sized Sabres and haven't had a problem with any of them. A brisk opening here and there but no real problems.

This is a dead topic, quit kicking the dead horse. What's the point in rehashing it, to let everyone know that a Sabre opens hard. Exactly, its no secret people have known this for years. There are lots of solutions, make sure the lineset is in trim, get a new slider, add a pocket to your slider, hire a new packer. If the bothers enough buy another canopy.

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Dear Rogue108, Did you read this part of the original post?

"Seeing as the packing, design,pocket slider, stochastic variable thing has been beaten to death,If you insist on an argument. Please save it for the other thread"

You do not follow instructions well.
May I suggest you read more and post less.

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PackerBarry:
2. measure the slider and maybe get with a rigger to build you a larger slider "that is within design parameters" but will slow down the elapsed time between the slider being dominant and the canopy taking over

What parameters are those? Something published somewhere?

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hi everyone

SHouldn't PD upfront react on this one? As a known brand they are screwing their reputation.
admit the bug, fix it and get on with it!

My experience
used + 600 jumps sabre1- 135
no problems, never hard openings 1.1 wingload
new sabre2-135
6 jumps
always off heading
always collapsed cells
no hard openings
no twists so far- wingload 1.1

Why do they bring this product to the market, they had 10 years to come up with a better evolution?B|

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SHouldn't PD upfront react on this one?




For every person that curses the opnenings of the original Saber, there's 5 people who love the things to pieces.

As Spoon says, it's no secret. People should do research before buying gear, and only buy gear thats appropriate to how they jump. The opening characteristics of older large Saber1's are well known.

I do not understand why someone would jump a canopy for years, while complaining of hard openings and neck damage. If its hurting your neck, maybe its time to change canopies, or have the canopy modified to slow its opening.

Every canopy can open hard, some are more likely then others. If you're sensitive to hard openings, choose your canopy accordingly.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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THE AERODYNE PILOT
EXCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES



When the Sabre came out it was the best and the first.

It is also what 15 years old? Which is the better car a 1991 Mustang or a 2005 Mustang? The newer car is going to be better.

The first of anything is going to have some problems...

An interesting note...The Sabre was designed for people who wore much baggier and thus slower falling jump suits. The freefall speed has increased over the years...The Stiletto was designed to handle higher speeds (As is now almost all new canopies).

To compare a new canopy to a canopy that was released 15 years ago (And which is no longer made) is nuts.....

Tom has an issue with a Sabre since he has recieved an injury that he attributes to the Sabre. Well, he is a smart guy and while the Sabre may have played a part....He is engaging in a high risk sport. When Toms injury happend there were several slower opening canopies on the market...Why didn't he buy one?

He is venting his anger at a problem that might have been atributed to a hard opening...But I suspect that it was a case of several openings, not just one...And he knew that Sabres have a tendency to open hard at times...He could have not jumped, or bought a new canopy at anytime.

Simple fact is most people with a bunch of jumps have things that pop and make noises that probably should not.

Something to consider...The human body was not designed to go through the repeated opening shocks we experience....You will wear your body out doing this.

Oh yeah, when the Sabre came out it was hands down the best canopy on the market...And it held market share for 10+ years...That says a lot about the product...It not being made anymore also says that it's time has past....There is a reason they don't make 1957 Chevy Belairs anymore.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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AGAIN!!! … Ron, you're on a Roll.

Exactly what I was thinking, but my eloquence is often less than stellar.

When jumping something you know will open hard on occasion, knowing fixes are available, and knowing consistently better opening canopies are available, the canopy is not at fault.

Sabres were and still are, very nice canopies.
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when the Sabre came out it was hands down the best canopy on the market...And it held market share for 10+ years



Yup!
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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Big Praise to Ron on his great way of putting it
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Tom has an issue with a Sabre since he has recieved an injury that he attributes to the Sabre. Well, he is a smart guy and while the Sabre may have played a part....He is engaging in a high risk sport. When Toms injury happend there were several slower opening canopies on the market...Why didn't he buy one?

.....again as ron said Sabers are great canopies that are first generation technology....by the time Tom was jumping them they were older technolgy and better alternatives were on the market and the Hard openings were already documented.....so is money (a cheap used canopy for me to jump) was the issue then YOU are to blame not PD for you injury......I have thousands of jumps on sabres and sabre2 and I'm still jumping strong today and I KNOW FULLY WELL that packing has some issue with the way they open.... I've only ben whacked after someone else packed for me but when I packed for myself I've had thousands of beautiful openings and all I can say is THANKS to PD!!

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