BASE dytter

[460 0]

I am in beta testing of a base ditter. Just like skydiving years ago, jumpers said "why would we need such an item? We should be heads up enough to never have to rely on such a thing." Well, skydiving has come much further because of the ditter. Head down for example.

More importantly, there have been several base deaths because of a loss of altitude awareness. Lee Werling for example.

Here's how the user interacts with it:
you press a button to determine the duration of the delay in seconds. you press another button to have the system repetively beep at you the number of seconds for your delay. If you are satisfied, you press the same button. If not, you press the board reset button. Ok, Ok, you skeptics will complain about it not being user friendly enough. I can add a LCD display in due time. Regardless, it has accelerometer chips on it that are used to trigger the timer once the jumper launches. The timer counts until the desired delay is reached. At that point, the system beeps. I think I need to develop a better way to remind the jumper to failsafe pull besides a little speaker.

The system can also collect accelerometer data allowing for a inferred velocity measurement and distance measurement. The chart quoted by many a base manufacturer is is somewhat erroneous in my honest opinion. This would allow a jumper to collect real data under a variety of conditions. To me, distance during opening and distance fallen after pc inflation are crucial unknown parameters, and I hope my invention will alleviate our inferred analysis.

are you guys interested??? feedback???

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[JeNnEjEnN 0]

I think it's a great idea. I'd love to try one out. Can never be too safe ya know... Jen

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"Scars remind you that the past is real..."

[RayLosli 11]

OK I am biting on this one. Also I am NOT Interested but I will give you some Feed-Back
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460:
" ...I am in beta testing of a base Ditter. Just like skydiving years ago, jumpers said "why would we need such an item? We should be heads up enough to never have to rely on such a thing." Well, skydiving has come much further because of the Ditter. Head down for example."
............

OK, the Ditter on skydives is aware of the Hard-Deck as Zero. You exit @ 13,000 you pull @ @2000.
The accelerometer chip goes by a desired pre-planed delay of choices.Both Mentally and Mechanically.
besides the chance of mechanical error or failure. The Ditter has just two things.
Set the altitude desired to Deploy then it Beeps.
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The accelerometer chip has several Variables. you have to know the Hard-Deck correctly ( the correct height) of object to Impact. That can vary much depending ( Point of Impact ) or height of Talus or the ( Quality ) of BASE jump you Have.
Like Exit, Body positioning to quality of a Track from object to impact point or even length of wingsuit BASE flight.
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I am not saying it is Not a Noble cause but I don't think it is a Healthy idea to interact with any kind of altitude awareness devise when BASE jumping.
A DZ is a DZ you set your Ditter. Exit out of a plane then there is the ground all weekend long. Jump after Jump.
Then you pull @ a set altitude prescribed by BSR's of skydiving. Like 2000 ft. safety cushion of Space from Pull to the ground.
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BASE is ever changing in Heights, Terrain and Objects also BASE can have several Points of Impact.
Like Ledges or Buttresses or different ranges of Talus height and, Bla Bla Bla.
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I am sure you are a smart guy and I'm not saying don't Build a BASE-Accelerometer for a altitude awareness I am Almost Positive someone will buy one.
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There is always some dumb mother fucker you is NOT Confident enough to be Altitude Aware of his or her surroundings when making a BASE jump. THEY will NEED the -Artificial Confidence- of a BASE Ditter to keep him or her altitude aware and tell them when to PULL around there EVER Changing Hard-Deck. When doing a BASE Jump.

Hey how about a BASE AAD for a Reserve to go along with that BASE accelerometer chip.?
Then you can do all the BASE jumps you want while Tracking on your Back looking up. Doing Camera Work.
your BASE accelerometer chip will tell when to ROLL-OVER and Pull.
SweeeeeeeT - No Responsibility @ All.. - Fuck it sounds almost like a Skydive.
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[TomAiello 25]

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your BASE accelerometer chip will tell when to ROLL-OVER and Pull.

No need to roll over. Just wait for it to fire the canopy, and then you're doing the Higgly Wiggly.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JaapSuter 0]

I'm a huge believer in technology and I strongly encourage you to experiment with this and keep us updated.

However, at this point I'm skeptical. I don't see it being useful for slider-down or subterminal jumps. The only jumps it is really useful for is those that have long delays. The problem there is that the difference between a good track and a shitty track in terms of altitude lost and delay can be significant, not just between people, but even between jumps done by the same person. One day you'll do a 12 second flight from exit 7 and the next day you'll do 20 seconds. A slightly different configuration of your clothing, a slightly different body position, etcetera, small parameters could significantly change your delay.

So that means it's really only useful for the person that jumps many many times from the same exit and is very consistent in his flights.

One could argue it could be used as a conservative warning device. You set it at a conservative delay, and when it starts beeping you know you need to start paying attention and get ready to pull. I don't think this will help much though. Most low-pullers are very aware how low they are, they just misjudge the their altitude and speed occasionally. Measuring your delay is not going to help you. Measuring your actual height is, but no sensor is accurate enough for BASE purposes.

One use I see might be for backflyers. Maybe it could have prevented some of the back-to-earth incidents.

Now while I am not convinced of its use as a warning device, I am very intruigided by its use as a post-jump analysis device, given you add the accelerometer.

But again, don't let these comments discourage you (not that you would let me do that anyway ), I think the idea is exciting.

[RayLosli 11]

Well Hell, Jaap
Why not just give the 1st jump, BASE students a, Accelerometer Chip when You AFF the person off an object.
If he gets unstable or gets away from the Jumpmaster he will get a Beep Beep to Pull.

Dude you need to - Get Real - and rely on your Brain & Eyes.
I believe they call that Experience.

I also believe that Experience grows into timing, technique and Skill you will Need to Survive as a BASE jumper.


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[JaapSuter 0]

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Dude you need to - Get Real - and rely on your Brain & Eyes.

Didn't I just say that I was skeptical, that I don't see the idea being useful for slider-down and subterminal jumps, and that even for long delays I don't see how it can work? Did you read my post?

I'm with you man. I'm a big fan of brain and eyes.

However, where we might differ in opinions is that I do think that most ideas in BASE are worth pursuing, even if 9 out of 10 people will tell you it's crazy. Especially as BASE jumpers, we should be open minded to ideas, even if we ourselves don't believe in them. For every idea that will make BASE safer, nine other ideas will be shot down. Worst case scenario, we'll learn a lesson.

To quote what has been attributed to Voltaire, despite it not appearing in any of his works; "I disapprove of the idea, but I will defend to the death 460's right to try and develop a BASE dytter."

[RayLosli 11]

Jaap, When you climb out there by yourself and exit.
It's up to You. & You have to make this BASE jump Happen. from beginning to the end.
also
I can tell you.460 can develop all the BASE Dytters he wants. You wont catch me wearing one.

[RhondaLea 3]

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More importantly, there have been several base deaths because of a loss of altitude awareness. Lee Werling for example.

After Lee died, I remember talking to one of the guys at the dz--someone I'd known since he started skydiving--who was just learning to base jump. Lee had been his teacher. In the course of the conversation, I said, "don't you count?"

He said, "Counting is for wussies."

I started as a static line student, tried a little AFF and went back to static line. After I had about seventy-five jumps, I stopped wearing an altimeter most of the time because by then I knew where I was. Seems to me that if you can't keep track of a minute's worth of seconds in your head--and for base, it's far fewer--you have no business walking out of the house in the morning, much less jumping out of an airplane or off an object.

As a technological wonder, Chris, it seems an interesting idea, but in another way, it is a lure for some people to go beyond their skill set. "I can do because I've got a little electronic marvel in my ear to warn me if I'm getting too low."

But I could be ignorant; the above was a quick and visceral reaction, mostly because of the mention of Lee.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Skin 0]

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After Lee died, I remember talking to one of the guys at the dz--someone I'd known since he started skydiving--who was just learning to base jump. Lee had been his teacher. In the course of the conversation, I said, "don't you count?"

He said, "Counting is for wussies."

Whilst perhaps an accurate account of Lee's statement, I think it's a little misleading.

Lee could only count to 8. Except when he was towards the end of a 50 pack of cheese squares at which point he would scream at Jimmy and demand the missing cheese to be replaced.

RIP 'punk. Glad you don't have to hear all this wussie shit.

$kin
There's only one Tom Aiello...

[Treejumps 0]

Its an interesting idea, but I wouldn't be caught dead with one (seriously, THAT would be embarrassing). I cant stand to even bother with helmets and such much less a new electronic gizmo.

What I do see as the unintended consequences of such technology are low timers going into the basement waiting for their beep. Such and such said he takes a 11 off of this so I will set my Bitter (Base Dytter) for 10.5. OOOps, such and such can't count and doesn't bother becasue he or she has several hundred jumps and has the wherewithal to focus and pay attention to the task at hand. Splat-beep, or beep-splat.

Seriously, it takes a lot of jumps for most people to be able to take the delay THEY intended. We all know that our right hand is in control of the jump and sometimes, especially when you are new(er), it just gets scared and pitches. THere you are under canopy at 4 when you planned on a 6, asking your right hand what it was thinking? Oh, I just got scared cause' I really didn't know where we were at. Bad Mr. Hand, but we lived to make another one... and I'll see you after the jump.

I'm sure that there are some good technical uses for the Bitter, but for the sport as a whole I think it is a step in the wrong direction, a step further towards skydivingization.

Cya.

[RhondaLea 3]

Quote

Quote

After Lee died, I remember talking to one of the guys at the dz--someone I'd known since he started skydiving--who was just learning to base jump. Lee had been his teacher. In the course of the conversation, I said, "don't you count?"

He said, "Counting is for wussies."

Whilst perhaps an accurate account of Lee's statement, I think it's a little misleading.

Lee could only count to 8. Except when he was towards the end of a 50 pack of cheese squares at which point he would scream at Jimmy and demand the missing cheese to be replaced.

RIP 'punk. Glad you don't have to hear all this wussie shit.

I never heard Lee say that counting is for wussies. I only know what this guy said afterward--for himself, not for Lee.

If you think I would disparage Lee in any way, $kin--even by implication--you don't know me as well as I thought you did.

But I'm surely glad I have some use as a straight (wo)man. Any Lee story is a good story.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[460 0]

The idea is more for long delays. Short delays are just too simple.

The ditter is an offshoot of collecting real velocity and distance data under a variety of conditions, such as temperature, humidity, tracking style, clothing, etc. Weather conditions should vary little over the altitudes of consideration on a base jump, but will subtly influence the fall rate and tracking rate. The variability of falling conditions from tracking, clothing, and exit is simply NOT KNOWN in the base environment. The freefall charts that are quoted are not that accurate, and the France cave jump was a critical example of delay choice. My hypothesis is as such: A barometric ditter is simply not accurate enough based on the altitude variations experienced in base. A comparison of real data will confirm or refute this. An analysis of the data will allow an understanding of the variations due to all the relevant variables. Based on collected data, the microcontroller can trigger however the user wants in such and such conditions based on lookup tables of previously acquired data.

Even more importantly, this device would allow an estimate of distance fallen versus time from pilot chute inflation to full parachute deployment. This variation is not that well known outside of manufacturers who constantly do drop tests.

The project may simply not be practical for most jumpers. I still do believe in a delay hard deck though. There are also times when delays can become very specific in enormous big way launches.

I also realize that this debate will exactly mimic the debate in skydiving years ago regarding AADs.

Edit addition:
Upon further thought, during the beta testing, I will add a tridirectional gyroscope (integrated circuit from Analog devices) in addition to the triaxial accelerometer integrated circuit in order to obtain directional information while in flight. These sort of systems are commonly used (not necessarily integrated circuits) in rocket navigation.

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[riggersam 0]

Perhaps you could add a radar altimeter? I think that would solve the concerns of varied terrain, ledges, etc. It would probably be best to have the device automatically adjust for horiztonal motion. For example, if you're tracking and at a 1:1 ratio, the altimeter would need to be measuring your distance to impact at a 45 degree angle down and out in front of you, rather than straight down.

Hmmm.. Couple that with the inertial navigation system, you could generate ultra-accurate topo maps of the terrain that you're flying over. Perhaps the USGS would then pay us to wingsuit around in that big granite valley!

[Zennie 0]

Cookie anyone?

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[460 0]

This would indeed be possible since I am a radar scientist. I have friends who design these systems for fighter jets. It may be cost prohibitive though. My little unit (4" x 3" x 1") cost me about the same as a conventional skydiving ditter.

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[NickDG 23]

Why not, just look at all the fun we had with Laser range finders . . . another gizmo to play with is cool. This stuff is inevitable and if it helps me save my energy that's fine. Just add a mode that repeats, "I'm an idiot, what I'm I doing here?" for when I'm climbing that next ladder.

Will we get to the point when someone walks down from Kjerag because their gadget isn't working?

The entire BASE trick is in using a single activation handle before its too late, that's the whole thing. If you need a signal to remind you about the thing, because you're doing another thing, than fine. Standing on the edge I'm not thinking of getting busted, I'm not thinking of getting hurt, I'm not thinking of what to do if "whatever" happens. I'm just thinking about the thing. I just want to get off clean and do the thing that gets me an open parachute. If it’s a big wall it's just more time I can spend flying and getting ready for the thing. The danger level in BASE jumping can be directly traced to how far you distance yourself from the thing . . .

NickD BASE 194

[RhondaLea 3]

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Will we get to the point when someone walks down from Kjerag because their gadget isn't working?

There's an interesting thread for the old fogies in General Skydiving right now.

If the course of BASE continues to parallel that of skydiving, the answer to your question is that it's the very next thing.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[kleggo 138]

RL wrote

There's an interesting thread for the old fogies in General Skydiving right now.

interesting?
yes it does fit the criteria of the defintion of interesting, ( at least the cynics view of interesting).

i'd probably choose the word.............................
hmmmmmmm what's a good word to describe the feeling you have when you see or read something that leaves you shaking your head in bemused disbelief?

be safe

kleggo

[RayLosli 11]

rl:
"But I'm surely glad I have some use as a straight (wo)man. Any Lee story is a good story. "
---

Hey did you hear the one about Lee and a Mormon Wedding, 15 year old Brides Maids and a bottle of Champagne ?
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[TomAiello 25]

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Hey did you hear the one about Lee and a Mormon Wedding, 15 year old Brides Maids and a bottle of Champagne ?

I didn't hear about it. But I was there.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[RhondaLea 3]

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rl:
"But I'm surely glad I have some use as a straight (wo)man. Any Lee story is a good story. "
---

Hey did you hear the one about Lee and a Mormon Wedding, 15 year old Brides Maids and a bottle of Champagne ?

Nik told me.

But it was one of those time-zone-challenged phone calls--he could never remember that his midnight was my 3 o'clock--and at the time I figured the odds were good I'd get a chance to hear it again, so I slept through most of it.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Faber 0]

I think you have a good idea even as im whith Ray,you wont see me arround whith a ditter for BASE,but neither would you see me whith a sorzer...
But if it can save 1 it has payed it self,but i dont think people will use them...

also im affraid people will loose their altitude awardness and might rely on the ditter itself...

I think you got a nobel idea through

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[peterk 0]

I can't believe that I am reading this. With all due respect, Lee made some mistakes and was unlucky that day. The solution to back-to-earth impacts isn't a dytter that takes away the responsibility of pulling on time. It is to take 8 seconds or less, for a 11 second delay, so that you have cushion time and can ensure a good body position on opening. If I am 1700' on an A, I don't tell people that I am going to take 6 seconds, or 8 seconds, or 11 seconds, or whatever. I don't count, don't wait for my audible to tell my hand that it is pull time, I just keep my eyes open, enjoy the object and groundrush, and when the mental impact calculations come back that it is time to pull, I pull. If you go low on the skydive dytter, its all good. Your freefly jump broke apart at 4,000 instead of 5,000, 6 seconds later. If you dial your BASE audible to beep when it is too late, by the time you hear it, it will be.

How long will it take from you enjoying your BASE jump, in which you have already lost altitude awareness, to reaching back and filling up a pilot chute? The answer is too long...

---------------
Peter
BASE - The Ultimate Victimless Crime

[Han-Solo 0]

if you can make a gadget (that i can afford), that makes it possible to backfly the bigwalls, not worrying about the space below me, i'd definitely be interested. but i don't think counting seconds is the way to go for this (at least not for this use). some kind of positioning device (at least 2-D) would be required. for a flat groud, a timebased system is fine. but for a tallus/mountainside, it's useless.
would it be possible to make something like this cheap enough? or small enough?