From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking

[JaapSuter 0]

Last I heard, Jennejenn isn't single. Then again, neither was Abbie and that changed very quickly.

[NickDG 23]

I'm in the same boat as the fellow who likes his jeans. I brought a pair of Churchill body surfing fins to a skydiving tracking meet in the early 80s and when I asked if I could use them, I got a large collective groan from the group and, "Fly your body, man," was the general consensus . . .

The collective history of wing suits goes back to the early 20th Century when barnstorming parachutists are trying new ways to get people to come see their acts. The problem of going too low was first experienced by these jumpers and they called it target fixation. Most of the "birdmen" of that time died wearing their wings. Granted the wings of old were sometimes wooden or metal braced and the parachuting gear was pretty complicated but still there was only one birdmen from that era that survived a full career of jumping the wings. It was so rare a feat they wrote a book about him. When wing suits made their comeback in modern times I couldn't help but think, okay, here we go again.

Yet the first years of wing suit flying on the drop zone went pretty well and now there doesn't seem to be a problem with skydivers using them. It's probably because they pull high and don't get sucked in by the visuals unlike their barnstorming relatives. The first BASE wing suit fatality is in 2002 and since then six or seven more have occurred. Is this a learning curve we'll get over, or the beginning of some real problems?

Sure, I marvel at BASE wing suit flight and I'm drawn to it, but I'll probably never try it myself as (and this is just me) it seems to violate a cardinal rule that demands BASE jumping be kept as simple as possible. In the old days we told new BASE jumpers they could follow others or be pioneers. This meant going to sites already jumped successfully instead of going around trying out new sites for the first time. In the same vein newer BASE jumpers should realize they never have to jump the wings, never have to do Tards or even aerials, and its okay to spend the day in your old jeans . . .

NickD BASE 194

[vandev 0]

This is also good stuff....i would really like to hear from who is actually wearing them...using them....Even if you are the manufacture........ I see more video than i hear from users..... I see the guy tracking the ITTW with pressurized pants and tracking like a banchie...but again what kind of jump numbers does he have and he is a very low puller so it's hard to judge if you pulled at safe altitude...what difference would it make....No offence but at the Valley he had a 3 secound canopy ride... that does not seem like a way to promote safety....you wouldnt give a guy with zero experience a base rig so why should you sell a pair of pants to someone who does not understand the complete risks of what they have the potentional to do....I think it's a valid question...again i could be totally wrong....just pokeing for information to try to avoide making stupid mistakes...

Thanks chris

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[vandev 0]

Hey Nickster...fins are cool....i tried fins and a boggie board after i saw it in a video....it was a amusment ride to say the least......It felt like a camera suit gone possesed......I did read though about people wearing tracking booties like on a 4 way suit and said they worked better than pants at Norway..... i could believe that......

Hope all is well Nickster....

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[JeNnEjEnN 0]

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Last I heard, Jennejenn isn't single.

hehehe... where'd ya hear that from?

-------------------------------------------
"Scars remind you that the past is real..."

[TomAiello 25]

Somewhere, I have a video of one of the Norgies taking fins and a snorkel off exit #6. It's pretty amusing, but it really is a heck of a track.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Maxim 0]

imagine the big monofins some freedivers use.

that would add a hell of alot of surface area

Life is Great. Even Greater what we do with it.

[podl01 0]

here's my input to your questions:

first of all, my experiences are based on the pressurized suit because I mainly use that one

We were discussing if we should recommend a minimum of skydives on our suit. But it's not the question of how many skydives you have, at the end it's the question of how comfortable you feel when you launch from a cliff with unknown equipment. You feel much more comfortable when you know your equipment! For most people that's when they have already done some jumps from a plane and already know how to fly the suit and how to recover from an unstable body position.

I saw both: people who first took the suit into skydiving to get used to it and people (already experienced with tracking) who jumped the suit from a cliff for the first time, felt safe and flew like hell.
When I hear that a guy turned towards the wall, then it probably would have been better for him to jump the suit from plane first. If you're used to the suit then you don't turn to the wall, it's more like the opposite- you get distance to the object after a few seconds!

There's no discussion that an airplane is the best choice for getting started with any kind of suit.
A friend of mine is a good example for that. He did several jumps from plane and really got familiar with the suit. He was almost affronted when he was not allowed to jump the suit on his first E.

about low pulling I agree with what has been said. It's obviously that lowpulls bring extra risk into a jump, and there's no need of more extra risk in this sport. sometimes it's just hard to put this into practice...

andreas

www.pressurized.at

[vandev 0]

Thanks Andreas, Would you also come to the same opinion that a pair of just baggy pants for you first terminal jumps would help at all. Also, I notice that the jumper jumping your suit has a bit of a different track position. Would this be only possible to achieve threw use with on a tracking dive skydiving without your pants or do the pants favor putting you in this position being that that extra material between your leg acts as a wing to help push up your mid section?. And anyway i could get a demo pair to try out skydiving....?

Thanks, Chris

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[TVPB 0]

V

Douggs has already given an answer to your question.

Learn how to track properly first, then use the tracking pants.

Learn on skydives first, then take your skills on BASE jumps.

If a person can't nail the stuff on skydives, they have no business trying it on a BASE jump. Putting yourself at risk and as a consequence, exposing other jumpers with you with a potential fatality is NOT the way to learn.

The difference between a skydive and BASE jump is simple - aerodynamics!!!! Planes fly when they have relative ari flow. Skydives give you this on the exit (usually), BASE exits don't. This means that you have to position your body on a BASE jump to both maintain stability, AND to simulate the affects of an airfoil passing through air (relative airflow). You stuff with this equation (i.e. unstable, stall points, disturbed air flow, etc), you don't fly efficiently.

Obviously, there are many other differences but you were asking about flight.

There is no short cut to becoming the World Formula One Racing Champion. You work hard, you develop your skills, you constantly assess and reassess your performance (preferably and more efficiently with a coach), and you alter your techniques such that you improve. Similarly, there is no short cut to becoming a super BASE tracker. You can certaily get there quicker by getting the right information up front. But it still takes a lot of hard work and time.
Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

Tom

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[pgpilot 0]

The pressurized suit is pretty hard to beat, I think. It's not the cheapest, but it is the best in my opinion. I started with birdman pantz, tried my friends PF suit at the gorge near my house in France, and purchased the pressurized jacket/pants from Andy in May.
The pants have a considerably larger surface area than the PF pants, and I doubt that the same jumper would have 'similar' performance if they tried both suits- I think he/she would notice the slower descent rate with the pressurized suit. I jumped my Pressurized suit from Tandem PGs a few times and heli's twice before jumping cliffs, and it has proved to be pretty stable from the beginning, even with my lousy tracking skills. But you can really feel it, and I do see the potential of the suit taking over your jump if you let it go- but the solution is easy- go skydive a bunch or something.

[beergood 0]

Chris you been able to make you first BASE jump yet? If not you have a good knowledge base get to a FJC. Labor day is coming Tom is doing his!!!

[tfelber 0]

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Learn how to track properly first, then use the tracking pants.

This thread has brought up a lot of self-doubt for me in regards to tracking. I think I'm a pretty good tracker. When I was a student my instructor told me to do a 180 at 5k and track hard. When I got to the ground he brought the video over and said his intention was to track past me, but I turned 180 and took off. He couldn't keep up with me. Recently, I participated in the Gravity Games at Elsinore. One of the contest was to track from the plane, in jeans, and you were awarded points if you could get past the runway by 5k. I was one of five that made it past and it really seemed very easy to me. I made it all the way to the landing area where I just fell stable the rest of the way to pull altitude. However, Mr. Tagle had no problem catching and passing me while shooting video, I think this was partly due to my looking forward. When He flew under me and took my air away and I looked down I felt a change in body position and an accelleration. BTW, the jumper who had set the path of the plane said we would have to track our asses off to get back to the target.

So comes my question, what does "track properly" mean? If I'm tracking as far and as fast as I think I am, even though I know I can always do better, what do I use as a measurement? I read up-thread about instability form more than one jumper that I would assume were proficient trackers before trying new tools and they had problems. I've tried the PF suit and I didn't have any issues with stability or control. Granted it definately felt a lot slipperier and I could feel an extra force trying to accellerate my lower body, kinda like your ass trying to pass you in flight.

I am considering trying a wingsuit at Rantoul this year, but as I said at the start of this post, have some self-doubt issues to overcome to mitigate the perceived risk. Am I just being nuts or what? Any feedback or direction would be appreciated.

[Bennii 0]

when you have the new suit both pants and jacket you are in semi wingsuit and like all wingsuitpilots know you colapse the wings when you open unless your advenced pilot and pull in full flight, if you do that i think you should know how to do the easier step first. Many pull in full track on terminal walls and that works quite well, but im not sure that all realize the big diffrens on suit and no suit.

just my 2 cents


Benni

[Atle 0]

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Would you also come to the same opinion that a pair of just baggy pants for you first terminal jumps would help at all.

Just jumping a pair of baggy pants won't really prepare you for jumping smokepants/pf pants or any other inflatable pants. Baggy pants don't fly, they are just drag. But a lot of tracking will make the transition easier.
The better you track without pants, the easier it is to track good with pants.

Another thing for those who already jump pants/jacket and are really getting close to a supertrack. Most jumpers are used to pull with the left hand in front of the head to get a symmetric pull. In my experience this is no longer a symmetric pull, and can make you unstable. I have experienced that I have started turning left or right as I started to pull, creating offheading openings. I now do a "wingsuitpull" combined with a slight de-arche. This workes really well for me.

Atle Dahl

See what I'm saying? Thats what I'm saying! What am I saying? I DON'T KNOW!!

[portillo 0]

first of all i have to say, that my experiences are based on the pressurized suit.

after my first year in skydiving and first impressions about BASE as groundcrew i focused on BASE skills during my following skydiving. i did normal trackdives and started soon jumping the tracksuit. i almost did 50 jumps from a plane with it.

when it finally comes to my first E this year in norway, i took the FJC with elin. i told her, that for me it is safer to jump my tracksuit from kjerag. after my first jump without the suit i was allowed to jump it and i almost took it back to the landing area.

i agree to what people said here: first take it from a plane and get known to the suit, than take it to BASE.

andY

[morri 0]

_________________________________________

Mörri #825
http://spaces.msn.com/nomercy825/

[Rainer 0]

I'm not sure, if it is the best to jump it from airplanes or other motorized aircrafts.
From my point of view it is the best to jump tracking suits out of a balloon - they simulate b.a.s.e. conditions perfectly.
I saw people having troubles doing a correct exit. Because tracking suits start to "fly" very early , you have less chances to recover from any shit you did at the exit (too head heavy, too steep,...). After a good exit it's much more easy to fly stable.
For me, the first 4-6 secondes are the most critical phase doing a jump with tracking stuff.

keep sparklin' and smilin'
cheers from the alps
rainer

[Faber 0]

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Would love to here from others about what that extra second means to them...I can't see the payoff...

to me the last second is evrything,i love that momentas much as i like the exit.When i hit the last second its like the goal of my jump,no matter if im taking 1 or 4 sec delays.

That said i never used Track in BASE,i simplynever were in a altitude were i could do much of a difference(900ft as max and even by tracking possition from there i wouldnt say i get a hole world of a distance covered),

but i can understand why people tracking and flying bigwalls want that extra aswell..

As Douggs say,why? we can just do another jump..Its right but most of us like to get that extra whith..

Funny thing is that a mate and i looked at some tracking vid last nite and we spoke about that people might get killed by flying thouse walls.

Keep it safe as you can out there and calculate the risk of each of your jumps and actions,even by that you can still find yourself in deep trouble..

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[subterminal 0]

Although it started on a tragic note, it is good to see this thread revived early in the big-wall season!
Reread; and be safe this summer!

CJ=)

[460 0]

I find flapping my arm vigorously to help my tracking ability, kind of like a flying chicken.

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174