ChrisL 2 #1 June 27, 2011 In the post about the IAD deployment titled "Is this normal" one of the students had a malfunction and cut away his main. The instructor followed the canopy down and left the student to fend for himself. It was not clear in the video where the student landed but it certainly looks like it was off the DZ in a less than ideal location. In my mind he should have chased the student. Am I wrong?__ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #2 June 27, 2011 although it wasn't clear i was under the impression that student and canopy both landed off and not to far apart.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #3 June 27, 2011 QuoteIn my mind he should have chased the student. Normally that would be the case, but we don't know the specifics of that drop zone. Perhaps the jumpmaster was still in the air when the student landed, saw the student moving around on his feet after landing, so knew he was okay, and then switched to retrieve the canopy. Perhaps he knew that ground crew was already on the way following the student, and knew that was covered, and that a canopy is harder to find than a student. There are a number of good reasons why he might have done that, none of which are automatically wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #4 June 27, 2011 I've never found it a standard policy to follow a student on a IAD, or SL jump. When they are dispatched, usually there is someone on the ground to give them canopy direction if needed. (i.e. radio, paddles, arrow, etc.)---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisL 2 #5 June 27, 2011 QuoteI've never found it a standard policy to follow a student on a IAD, or SL jump. When they are dispatched, usually there is someone on the ground to give them canopy direction if needed. (i.e. radio, paddles, arrow, etc.) I didnt mean as a standard practice. I meant after a cutaway where the student is clearly landing off the dz under a reserve canopy. I doubt anyone at the dz would have been able to adequately direct the student via radio from back at the landing area.__ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #6 June 27, 2011 QuoteI doubt anyone at the dz would have been able to adequately direct the student via radio from back at the landing area. They should have the knowledge to land safely off dz without assistance, shouldn't they? Isn't that taught in the FJC? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisL 2 #7 June 27, 2011 QuoteQuoteI doubt anyone at the dz would have been able to adequately direct the student via radio from back at the landing area. They should have the knowledge to land safely off dz without assistance, shouldn't they? Isn't that taught in the FJC? then they shouldn't need radio at all right?__ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
david3 0 #8 June 27, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteI doubt anyone at the dz would have been able to adequately direct the student via radio from back at the landing area. They should have the knowledge to land safely off dz without assistance, shouldn't they? Isn't that taught in the FJC? then they shouldn't need radio at all right? It looks like the student will make it back to the airport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #9 June 27, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteI doubt anyone at the dz would have been able to adequately direct the student via radio from back at the landing area. They should have the knowledge to land safely off dz without assistance, shouldn't they? Isn't that taught in the FJC? then they shouldn't need radio at all right? I didn't when I landed off under a reserve on jump #6. Wasn't the world's prettiest landing but I did it without radio assistance at all, and that included navigating around a fence and power lines. I don't recall the static line JM ever jumping "with" us when we were on S/L or clear & pulls. Ground crew was always "in charge" once the students were clear of the aircraft. That may have had something to do with the setup at the DZ where I learned - the students and A & B license jumpers landed in an off-airport location, more experienced folks (including the JMs) landed at the airport, so in order to be able to efficiently get down to dispatch more students, the JMs would exit back at the airport."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 13 #10 June 27, 2011 QuoteThey should have the knowledge to land safely off dz without assistance, shouldn't they? Isn't that taught in the FJC? If an experienced friend, on a jump with you, landed a reserve off the DZ, would you not follow them for this reason ? Kevin K. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #11 June 27, 2011 QuoteI doubt anyone at the dz would have been able to adequately direct the student via radio from back at the landing area. And in that situation, the radioman just tells the jumper that they are on their own to land safely, and to do so as they have been taught. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
david3 0 #12 June 27, 2011 QuoteIn the post about the IAD deployment titled "Is this normal" one of the students had a malfunction and cut away his main. The instructor followed the canopy down and left the student to fend for himself. It was not clear in the video where the student landed but it certainly looks like it was off the DZ in a less than ideal location. In my mind he should have chased the student. Am I wrong? I would think following the student would be a good idea unless it is going to put the instructor into a dangerous situation. The student should be trained to land without the radio. Radios fail, off dz landings make radio impossible. With that being said, in this situation I believe it looks like the student is going to make it back to the airport (an airport) if not the landing zone specifically. See attached. The yellow circle is the student, the red circle is the cutaway and the green outline is the end of the runway. If the instructor saw the student was making it to a safe landing area I could see him following the canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #13 June 27, 2011 Quote Quote In the post about the IAD deployment titled "Is this normal" one of the students had a malfunction and cut away his main. The instructor followed the canopy down and left the student to fend for himself. It was not clear in the video where the student landed but it certainly looks like it was off the DZ in a less than ideal location. In my mind he should have chased the student. Am I wrong? I would think following the student would be a good idea unless it is going to put the instructor into a dangerous situation. The student should be trained to land without the radio. Radios fail, off dz landings make radio impossible. With that being said, in this situation I believe it looks like the student is going to make it back to the airport (an airport) if not the landing zone specifically. See attached. The yellow circle is the student, the red circle is the cutaway and the green outline is the end of the runway. If the instructor saw the student was making it to a safe landing area I could see him following the canopy. AND...not to be too critical, but the landing by the JM wasn't really all that pretty either. Lots of grass on the right side of the road, some grass on both sides of the road, the road...and he took the planted field. Just sayin', the JM may not have been all that comfortable with an off field landing either. ~The 'Old Dayz' hardcore answer would be...follow the gear, we got a lotta students! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jshiloh 0 #14 June 27, 2011 Priority should be the student. Sure, the student should have been trained how to land off. But bear in mind that he just had a rather significant event that required a cutaway. How many students are going to panic, blank out, or otherwise have problems? That being said, I don't think there's a "one size fits all" answer to the poll question. While priority should be given to the student's wellbeing, that doesn't necessarily mean following the student down must happen. Ground crew may be in as good a position to get to the student's site. The student may be heading to an area that is unsafe for the TI to land in. The student may land fine & the TI can see he is ok. Or many other situations may make it unnecessary to follow the student down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisL 2 #15 June 27, 2011 Quote I didn't when I landed off under a reserve on jump #6. And neither did i when my radio failed on my first solo jump and I landed just fine and even stood it up. My instructor signed me off radio then and there. BUT, this was in 1989 and I thought a lot more emphasis has been added to increase safety for the students since then. Certainly A license requirements and student progression is a lot more involved now than it was back then. I'm not saying that I know better than the more experienced jumpers here. I got my A in 1989 and then quit jumping for 15 years and now I'm just a fun jumper with no ratings of any kind. Seemed to me that under the same circumstances, I would have been more concerned about the student than the gear. Just thought I'd see what others thought.__ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #16 June 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteI doubt anyone at the dz would have been able to adequately direct the student via radio from back at the landing area. They should have the knowledge to land safely off dz without assistance, shouldn't they? Isn't that taught in the FJC? then they shouldn't need radio at all right? Correct. Students here are taught as though the radio doesn't work. Many can't hear it or can't understand what's being said. They are taught to handle it on their own.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #17 June 28, 2011 Quotethen they shouldn't need radio at all right? Yea that's right they don't, in m FJC your trained to land a parachute, on or off the airport or dz. In fact unless someone asks about it in class, you'll never know your getting a damn radio till your suited up and the thing is placed on your shit. FYI- most of today's instructional pool is jumping small hot rod parachutes that hall ass out of the sky, students, while having a head start by leaving ahead of time, still use big ass floaty canopies..... hint, this makes it a great deal harder to follow a student down, while most the time cutaway shit will still beat you to the ground.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #18 June 28, 2011 QuoteIn fact unless someone asks about it in class, you'll never know your getting a damn radio till your suited up and the thing is placed on your shit. Thanks, Strat...I learned that from you way back and I still do it exactly that way, too.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
david3 0 #19 June 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteIn fact unless someone asks about it in class, you'll never know your getting a damn radio till your suited up and the thing is placed on your shit. Thanks, Strat...I learned that from you way back and I still do it exactly that way, too. That is how I was taught. No clue I was getting a radio until I was geared up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #20 June 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteI doubt anyone at the dz would have been able to adequately direct the student via radio from back at the landing area. They should have the knowledge to land safely off dz without assistance, shouldn't they? Isn't that taught in the FJC? then they shouldn't need radio at all right? Yep. And as all FJ methods should be teaching, the radio is a backup device only, to assist IF possible.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
david3 0 #21 June 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI doubt anyone at the dz would have been able to adequately direct the student via radio from back at the landing area. They should have the knowledge to land safely off dz without assistance, shouldn't they? Isn't that taught in the FJC? then they shouldn't need radio at all right? Yep. And as all FJ methods should be teaching, the radio is a backup device only, to assist IF possible. I agree 100%. Funny how in the “Archway Skydiving Sued” thread there are some people that believe (if you follow their train of thought) that if the radio failed because the batteries were incorrectly installed and the student got hurt the radio manufacturer is somehow responsible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aliencico 0 #22 June 28, 2011 Dear Sir, It is task for any Person who will call himself/herself "Instructor" to provide a safe action for his/her student. Above all, a Human Life is more valuable than a piece of Nylon, whatever it been finely made. An Instructor´s arrival on his/her Student landing spot imposes a Comradeship, and Safety feeling that is paid by no other thing. Moreover if, unfortunately, He/She is injured. Nothing is worser for a novice that thinking: "I am expendable, I am on my own". Please, remember that All of us, seasoned Skydivers, have to, and should to, promote safety above all. Juan Fraile-Nuez Military Parachute Rigger (ret.) Spain, Europe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #23 June 28, 2011 QuoteAn Instructor´s arrival on his/her Student landing spot imposes a Comradeship, and Safety feeling that is paid by no other thing. Moreover if, unfortunately, He/She is injured. Sometimes that's not really likely to happen or possible. Personally, I jump a 169 sq ft canopy, which among many instructors I've seen, is a boat. Many students are being put out with 200+ canopies, and pulling higher than the instructors, (sometimes by a couple thousand feet). I wouldn't expect the instructor to be able to follow a student down, on their smaller canopies going faster, and already thousands of feet lower."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #24 June 28, 2011 AND...not to be too critical, but the landing by the JM wasn't really all that pretty either. Lots of grass on the right side of the road, some grass on both sides of the road, the road...and he took the planted field. Just sayin', the JM may not have been all that comfortable with an off field landing either. Quote When landing off once at WFFC, I chose the corn field next to the road, because I had no idea what was hiding in the grassy strip next to the road. Often times, there is stuff hiding in that grass that would really sux to land on or fall on. I chose the corn since I only expected corn to be in the field, and no hidden transformers, metal poles, etc. JBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #25 June 28, 2011 Quote AND...not to be too critical, but the landing by the JM wasn't really all that pretty either. Lots of grass on the right side of the road, some grass on both sides of the road, the road...and he took the planted field. Just sayin', the JM may not have been all that comfortable with an off field landing either. Quote When landing off once at WFFC, I chose the corn field next to the road, because I had no idea what was hiding in the grassy strip next to the road. Often times, there is stuff hiding in that grass that would really sux to land on or fall on. I chose the corn since I only expected corn to be in the field, and no hidden transformers, metal poles, etc. J Any reason you decided not to land in the center of the road? Not 2nd guessing you, I'm just curious. I've found myself in similar situations and always took the the out where I could be found fast if something went sideways. Checking of course for wires, traffic and freshly sprayed oil on the gravel roads. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
