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cornishe

Protest Jump in NPS

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I'd love to include Paragliders in this, but dont want to risk an information leak. Rusell, you're in with that crowd well. Are there supporters that would come join in the festivities?


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Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

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I'd love to include Paragliders in this, but dont want to risk an information leak. Rusell, you're in with that crowd well. Are there supporters that would come join in the festivities?



I know 2 or 3 I'd vouch for.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I'd love to include Paragliders in this, but dont want to risk an information leak. Rusell, you're in with that crowd well. Are there supporters that would come join in the festivities?



Are you CRAZY!!! I know at least 25 paraglider pilots that would kill to fly the valley!! I'm sure there are more. Although I'm not sure the paragliding community is as willing to get arrested as the BASE community is.

What do you guys think about me posting a link to this thread on a popular paragliding forum?

Paragliders are banned from the valley because BASE jumping is (or vice versa) but they allow hang gliding. Why is that? I'm sure if BASE jumping was allowed they'd have to let people paragliding as well.

Edited to combine 2 posts.

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Does anybody know the NPS' logic (rational or not) around permitting hang-gliding? I seem to recall some discussion around fixed-wings vs. airfoils in some older posts. It would be helpful to understand the precedent that was set allowing hang-gliding.
I like the momentum this is gaining. I know it's a lot of Internet talk right now, but I really can see this going somewhere.
-C.

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What do you guys think about me posting a link to this thread on a popular paragliding forum?



We can only include people you personally know and trust.

Let's talk more in the private room.


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Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

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Ok, after tech dificulties, the site is back up. Use the passwords I emailed you and change them again if you'd like.

35 people responded they are ready and willing in the poll! Where are you guys?? Where about the rest of you??? PM me and lets get serious planning going on!

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Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

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Remember everybody, this is not a discussion about whether or not we should do this, but just a simple who's in and who isn't.

The ramifications will not ruin anyone's lives permanently.

Let's just get back to who's willing and really that's it...Who's willing. The next step is even easier...set a date., we go, we jump, we get busted, or maybe not. Whatever.

Those who know why this is a good idea don't need to explain themselves, and if anyone wants an explanation, i suggest they pick up a copy of thoreau's "Civil Disobedience." It's a little wordy, but good.

Oh and all the speculation about what will happen to those get busted is pointless at this point because those questions will get answered after the jump.

This sounds fun, and very American.

late,
jimmy

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Operation "?"



'Equal Access' ?

Also I love lawrockets idea of inundating NPS with special permit requests...just think how annoyed they're gonna be when they get hundreds of the things within a say, seven day period. The paperwork will be a nightmare in its own right. and when they deny us all, we file for an appeal...they do have an appeals process don't they? or is that too democratic?

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Since I got this HD camera, I could care less about my 3chip DVcam camera.



If I had a really cool 3chip DVcam camera that I could care less about, I'd seriously consider donating it to an 87 jump wonder who is looking to upgrade from his crappy JVC so he can make some serious amateur BASE DVDs and home porn flicks ;)

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I'm considering allowing only BASE jumpers in the forum until we get closer to a plan and then we can add the skydivers,etc. that want to help.

Am I a dick? And besides that, is that overdoing the security of this... opinions ASAP please...


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Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

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Does anybody know the NPS' logic (rational or not) around permitting hang-gliding? I seem to recall some discussion around fixed-wings vs. airfoils in some older posts.


That's it, in a nutshell. No logical policy differentiation between paragliders and BASE canopies.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Am I a dick? And besides that, is that overdoing the security of this... opinions ASAP please...



Um, two separate questions?

But I think you can't overdo the security bit.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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DEFINITELY willing to jump AND stuff the consequences for the cause.

Already got a conviction in my continent for it, so hey, why not start a BASE subculture.... Four convictions in four continents would be the goal!!?? Hell, while we are at it, why not just let the authorities issue the BASE conviction numbers...

Am willing to travel over there and do any preparation necessary to be involved in this.

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Are you will to jump in an organized 150+ jumper illegal event in NPS land to protest the Aerial Delivery law being applied to BASE Jumping?



From another thread:

Utah Board of Parks and Recreation Meeting: July 8th, 2005
Quote


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1722668;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread
...
If you are attending the meeting, please keep several things in mind:

1) This is not an adversarial situation. Our goal here is to convince the Board that jumping should be considered in their planning process. Attacking them would be counterproductive.

2) You will be taken by the public, the board, and the media as a representative of our sport. Please dress professionally and conduct yourself appropriately.

3) The most positive result we can hope for is an open planning period in which the park system works with jumpers to create a management plan covering jumping. Our biggest goal for tomorrow is to open discussions with the park system, so that public input (including ours) can be heard before a decision is made regarding the future of jumping in state parks in Utah.
...



The two approaches seem to be a bit incompatible

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Those who know why this is a good idea don't need to explain themselves, and if anyone wants an explanation, i suggest they pick up a copy of thoreau's "Civil Disobedience."



Civil disobedience only works in situations where there is substantial public sympathy for the cause. The act of disobedience brings attention to the issue and inspires the average person put political pressure on the system to remove the injustice.

It's one thing to hold a march to protest rascism or sexism. Or to be a black person and sit at the front of the bus.

In these cases we're talking about CLEAR injustices that tug at a person's conscience and core values. We're also talking about average ordinary people who other average ordinary people can sympathize with. And even then, the public outcry has to be on such a large scale and so overwhelming that the powers-that-be have really no choice but to eliminate the injustice.

Try to place yourself in the average ordinary Joe's shoes for a second (hard as that is for some folks I know)...

Do you REALLY think that this is on the level that it's going to inspire the average Joe to get mad enough to write his Senator/Congressman to express his outrage at the injustice of it all and demand legislation to end it? Do you really think that this will bring about such a substantial public outcry that the political hacks will have no choice but to end the NPS ban?

OR, will he think this is just a bunch of nutcases doing something stupid and pointless?

Further, how sympathetic (or accurate) has the mainstream press been to us up until now? Do you really think 100+ folks hucking themselves off a cliff is going to evoke some sort of media epiphany?

Folks are going to do what they want, I know. But I personally think is like trying to shoot at the NPS while holding the gun backwards.

Flame on...

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

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I will add one caveat.

IF... and this is a big if... we were able to get the paragliders, hang gliders, rope jumpers and climbers ALL to be part of the protest... then we may have something.

At that point it no longer becomes just us. And the average Joe may see that we have a point since many others are also in our corner.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

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The general public could give a damn if BASE jumpers get to jump or not. What we should focus on is the underlying issue of discrimination...it's blatant. It's also something that everyone has experienced to some degree and can relate to.

Maybe with that approach we can garner some public support for the cause. Otherwise, were gonna come off like some rogue faction.

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suggest they pick up a copy of thoreau's "Civil Disobedience



Civil Disobedience only works when all attempts working through the system have failed.

I'll reiterate - tray first to make a legal "protest jump." The NPS has far less slack in declining it as an exercise of the First Amendment than in not allowing a "fun jump."


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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Folks are going to do what they want, I know. But I personally think is like trying to shoot at the NPS while holding the gun backwards.

Flame on...



Me too.

I'm with you, o mighty firewalker.

Still, there are a couple of ways to generate public empathy. You can create urban folk legends. If Rudi Guiliani had had his way, Thor Alex would still be in jail. As it was, the papers turned him into "The Human Fly," and made of him a hero. The media spin made him seem exciting and exotic, thus rendering it a political faux pas to prosecute him. When he died--months later in another country--New York City took note and grieved for him.

You can also play the gimp card--and that may be the better option. People love it when someone who is sick or disabled bounces back from whatever physical problems he has and performs some extraordinary feat. This kind of human interest story ignites the imagination and serves as an object lesson to anyone who says, "I can't."

If you can get a handle on the press, get the media on your side, things will change.

It remains to be seen if, in fact, change is good.

rl

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suggest they pick up a copy of thoreau's "Civil Disobedience



Civil Disobedience only works when all attempts working through the system have failed.

I'll reiterate - tray first to make a legal "protest jump." The NPS has far less slack in declining it as an exercise of the First Amendment than in not allowing a "fun jump."



So, in other words, once everybody gets organized here, try first to apply for a permit to make the protest jump, and leave the "non-permitted" version as a possible response if we exhaust our legal options?

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