What to look for in a BASE student?

[TomAiello 25]

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...half the postings I read make it clear that these "experienced" jumpers have no concept of physics or atmospheric science.

Why is this knowledge not a recommedation?

Have you read the required reading list for my FJC and Skills Camp? Two books on there: BASE 66 and Understanding the Sky. Understanding the Sky can be a bit dense, so if you have a recommendation for something a little easier to digest, I'd love to hear it.
I also recommend some reading on fluid motion (as well as the aforementioned two books), in my Getting Into BASE article.

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Maybe this IS why the mishaps are so frequent?

I'd say that better knowledge of micrometeorology would definitely help us all. But to categorize it as the main cause of accidents would be, I think, going too far. I'd say the biggest cause of accidents is leaving the exit point when you shouldn't (i.e. judgment error) or attempting jumps without gradually preparing for them (which is probably also a judgment error).

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I see the book you recommend (Dennis Pagen I believe) and that has some good stuff in it, but there is still a great deal of physics and calculations that need to be made by somebody who is not with a person who does understand this.

Can you point me at any references you'd recommend in that regard?

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How about the simple math to figure out how long it will take to reach a certain altitude based on a variable fall rate? Is it acceptable to just rely on past data and other's suggestions?

I believe the altitude-delay chart I referenced (on the Apex web page) does a pretty good job of giving that information. I'd love to find a formular that would work for that, somehow taking into account variation in body position (etc) to be more precise. But I think it's unlikely we're going to find such a formula that can be universally applied.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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Does the chart follow your thoughts? Do you think it follows the current thoughts of the masses?

Not exactly, in either case.

But since I haven't taken the time to compile a chart of my own, I'm not going to complain about the free information being offered by Apex.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

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...to take the skulls out I used to make...

I miss the old "skulls and smiley faces" version.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Newtons2nd 0]

I have read the books you list and found them quite helpful. I am actually a physics student so I have studied fluid dynamics.

In fact half the reason I returned to school was to learn about all of the phenomena that I have experienced in my early twenties.

I agree that the books are great, but what I was saying is that doesn't teach the physics of the actual jump.


I feel like I really don't have a right to say much more. I know if I had somebody commenting on how one of my well accomlished sports could be made better when he/she hadn't yet actually done it, I would be a bit put off.

I wasn't suggesting that the mishaps are due to lack of weather knowledge, I was stating exactly what you said in that most accidents are due to misjudgements, and that some of those misjudgements could be avoided if the calculations were either made better or made in the first place.

And back full circle to my original comment: I would hope that new students coming over from skydiving like myself would open a basic physics book and at least learn how to make some calculations.

I know of a few that I tell all of my fellow athletes to read. You know it is bad when the ask what Newton discovered.

I will try to dig through my collection and find a short compact book that explains the basics of newtonian motion and fluid/thermo dynamics. I would feel comfortable recommending that, because by the end of the summer I will be standing atop an object next to a person that will hopefully understand it.

Cheers, and hope to meet you by the end of summer.

[JaapSuter 0]

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short compact book that explains the basics of newtonian motion

The first six chapters of David Hestenes' New Foundations for Classical Mechanics.

If would love some recomendations for material on fluid dynamics. Everything I've found and tried so far had a learning curve that was too steep to fit my motivation.

[TomAiello 25]

Hey Dr. S,

Can you help us with a reference that works for those who are not on your "genius from another dimension" physics level?

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I will try to dig through my collection and find a short compact book that explains the basics of newtonian motion and fluid/thermo dynamics.

For those who don't know him, BASE 460 actually is a physicist (with the fancy doctorate from a prestigious university, and all that).

Kallend, here on the forums, is also a professor along those lines. I'll try to drop some PM's around and see if anyone can point us in the right direction.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[vandev 0]

How about some quantom physics..... a worm hole for example....that could explain alot of mishaps....

Im sorry...I ment Black hole..... maybe that will explain it....they just where just at the wrong place at the wrong time...

Sorry Nickster....i could not resist....The conversation was getting too deep.......

http://www.crystalinks.com/black_holes.html

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[vmsfreaky1 0]

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Definitely. It's rare to find people who are just looking for adrenaline rush sticking around very long. There's an awful lot more to this sport than that.
***

Would this apply to the "guy" i wont use names....who ..and i read about his training....did the pakistan jump....and from the video i saw was tumbeling on his back...actually both of them.. the hole way down.... how they lived....."had to be Luck" a example of trying to do too much to soon....This is a sport that your progression has to flow and mature rather than churn and burn...It is definetly a brain not a balls sport....can anyone add to this....?

That 'guy' had skydiving experience, he had a mentor, he started out slow,bungee then d-bagging first then progressing pretty conservitivly.

They also had a bunch of heavy cameras on their heads which i think caused at least one of them to go arse over tit.

Funnily enough that 'guy' is now the media spokesman for the ABA.

[vandev 0]

Thats just my point....doing to much in too short of time for all the wrong reasons....i.e...money....fame.... publicity...i.e pay for the training and trip....jumping a first time object....with probably no camera experience....i jumped a camera for a hundred or so jumps and i dont know squat...... this seems to me a anatomy of a dead man.....

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[vandev 0]

Woman Survives 9-Story Fall

This woman has got to qualify.....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7835451/

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[vmsfreaky1 0]

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Thats just my point....doing to much in too short of time for all the wrong reasons....i.e...money....fame.... publicity...i.e pay for the training and trip....jumping a first time object....with probably no camera experience....i jumped a camera for a hundred or so jumps and i dont know squat...... this seems to me a anatomy of a dead man.....

you think?

irrespective of his glory seeking, I think he went about his training fairly sensibly for those times, hell even for these times, with death camps all the rage.

[Newtons2nd 0]

Well then it is time for me to bow out--if there is a physicist out there who has been involved with base that long, surely he will know more than I do about the combination of the two, as well as the general knowledge of the BASE crowds he is invloved with.

I am sure he will know of a classic conceptual book called "Conceptual Physics" by Hewitt. We were all insulted in our transition to upper division when the professor suggested this book, but although it teaches one as if he/she is in third grade, it is very helpful for somebody who is not quite understanding the qualititative (visual) idea behind some of the more advanced theories (relatively advanced--so to speak:)

You know there would probably be some decent money in a publsihing of a small handbook that combines all of the basics in a "guide for falling bodies in a fluid medium and the dynamics of the microclimates that might hinder ones judgement or save ones life, and other bonus hints on just how things work" forgive the title I am being mostly sarcastic. Atlthough a book like this with all of your charts in the back that are more updated than that of the recommended PC's for the modern 1980's jumper.

[laird 0]

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Well then it is time for me to bow out

Thank you

"HIGAF" Honestly I Give A F*^%

[Newtons2nd 0]

Does "Thank you" mean quit offering suggestions, or thank you for the suggestions?

[laird 0]

It means fill out your profile, and stop trolling.

"HIGAF" Honestly I Give A F*^%

[Newtons2nd 0]

Lets see....

I asked Tom a question and got a few other responses, then responded to those, then received a message asking for some more advice on Physics books.

Not sure how that is trolling...

However since I am new to the forum, I assume since you have a big "D" listed under experience that everybody else shares your view.

I am doing what most highly qualified instructors say to do...ask lots of questions and start understanding the world of BASE.

This thread is titled "what to look for in a student" doesn't that mean that I, with little experience should be in this thread asking questions and stating my concerns, as well as getting feedback?

I don't have a profile, I have 0 jumps, I only have jumped out of planes, and saw the thread and thought this would be the place for students and teachers to swap views.

oh wait...nevermind...I just realized what the "D" stands for, because the last guy who told me to get out of the thread that I created, also had a "D"

Sincerely,

The guy who will probably piss somebody off before I make any friends.

[laird 0]

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I don't have a profile, I have 0 jumps, I only have jumped out of planes

You have a name, you skydive right? Thats profile information. Do yourself a favor ,and fill out the profile. It will give you some credibility (maybe).

What Im having a hard time with is that you won't share an exit point with someone that can't quote newton, but you can't seem figure out how to fill in a few blanks about yourself on a forum profile.

Dude, its ok if you just made a tandem last month (maybe abit premature to post on a base forum), but you gotta give alittle to get alittle.

Did I mention you might want to fill in the profile.

Also, the forum search function is an very valuable tool, it might keep you from asking something that might have been covered a few times already.

"HIGAF" Honestly I Give A F*^%

[JaapSuter 0]

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Fill out the profile. It will give you some credibility (maybe).

Agreed.

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What I'm having a hard time with is that you won't share an exit point with someone that can't quote newton.

Agreed.

Having agreed with those points though, I believe that Newtons2nd's posts are well-intentioned. I must admit that I don't think a wackload of physics will make base much safer either, but sometimes a fresh idea from an unexplored corner can provide a new invention that can safe somebody's life. Far fetched? Maybe. But trolling? I don't think so.

I don't know if Newtons2nd has zero or a thousand skydives, but I don't think there's a shame in having an interest in base even when you have zero skydives. Maybe it's better to lurk on the forums than post, but even the occasional post won't do much more harm than increase the amount of entropy in the universe.

In case any beginners on this forum are too embarrased to fill out their profile, allow me to shamefully admit that the "student" part of my profile is completely true. I still don't have my A license in skydiving. Admittedly if I were to do my theory-tests I'd have my A and B at once but I'm not very big on rules, regulation and licenses. I'll bother some day when I want to jump in the States. Besides, even if I'd have my D-license, I'd still consider myself a student. It's what we all are and always will be.

I wonder if CSPA has ever gotten applications for an A-license from somebody with over 192 jumps.

So don't hesitate to fill out your profile, even if you have never even seen a plane from up close. As long as your posts are well-intentioned and you've RTFMed, we'll do our best to come up with useful answers. Even when sometimes that's nothing more than: "visit your local dropzone and ask them".

[NickDG 23]

>> I would hope that new students coming over from skydiving like myself would open a basic physics book and at least learn how to make some calculations.<<

>>> newtonian motion and fluid/thermo dynamics. I would feel comfortable recommending that, because by the end of the summer I will be standing atop an object next to a person that will hopefully understand it.<<

Hello,

You took kind of dunning with the camera thing because you're coming off pompously, you know, like the fellow who wants to buy a sailboat and voyage around the world when he's not yet been out of the harbor. And really, string theory to most BASE jumpers means keeping one's feet out of one's suspension lines.

Another thing is not every BASE jumper is interested in helping others into the sport, and that's their right to do so.

I'll advise you, but you have to give a little first. Like what's your name? How many skydives have you made over what period of time? How can we help you without knowing your situation? You said you study physics, you said you are an athlete, you said everything except what we needed to know.

And believe this; when you are finally standing there and looking down into the big gulp for the first time with a rig on your back, Isaac Newton will be the last thing on your mind . . .

BTW, if you are still awake tonight, start your education here. Read it all and if you are still interested in BASE jumping we can talk again in the morning . . .

http://www.basefatalities.info/

NickD BASE 194

[Sean621 0]

no further questions your honour.

http://www.extreme-on-demand.com

[Faber 0]

guys why would you want a new guy to fill out his profile as many BASE jumpers in here and other places dont...
Its the futur BASEjumpers right to not do so..

its not like were a comunity were evry one wants their name out there,no matter if theyre new or old..

just looking at the other side...

Sean go to bed... sleep tight and rember the correct gear next time huh he he i would have laughed my arse off for that one.. good skills

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Luke 0]

There is something pretty simple, but still pretty important that everyone seems to have overlooked- well, except Yuri maybe.

You got to like them.

The slightest incompatibility gets magnified when we're stressed. A teacher/ mentor should want to spend lots of unpaid time with their student, arguably for months/ years to come.

Obviously it works the other way too- if you think your potential mentor is a bit of a tool, you're really not doing youself any favours.

[JoeyRamone 0]

Tom,

How or why do you suggest CRW jumps?

[gus 1]

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There is something pretty simple, but still pretty important that everyone seems to have overlooked- well, except Yuri maybe.

You got to like them.

Spot on Monty. I know one jumper in particular who doesn't have a great relationship with his mentor and it's a crap situation for both of them - but particularly for the student.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[skypuppy 1]

I wonder if CSPA has ever gotten applications for an A-license from somebody with over 192 jumps. \

__________________________________________________
CSP---WHAT? I know several (well, more than one) who had around a thousand jumps before they ever bothered to get a licence (if they ever did)

My favorite response was Chris Cecil out of Silver Eagle. 'Hey ?Chris, what if you want to do a demo and they won't let you on it?" Chris's reply "I'll buy a plane and do it myself." (Chris owned and flew a number of twin beeches)

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone