JaapSuter 0 #1 April 21, 2005 I shot some video today of what I believe was a big factor in my recent incident. This pilotchute packjob combined with a less-than-ideal throw, can lead to unbeatable groundrush... This video only shows what myself and a few others believe is not a good way of packing a pilotchute for base jumping. It does not show how to do a good one. I don't believe that somebody with my level of experience should present himself online showing how to do a mushroom or super-mushroom. Ask your mentor or a manufacterer if you have questions about how to do it properly. Windows Media (2720kb): http://www.jaapsuter.com/do_not_share/dead_jaap_pack.wmv I hope it is useful to somebody. I tried making a Quicktime version too, but I can't get it small enough and maintain a reasonable quality. My apologies. Cheers, Jaap Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinMcGuire 0 #2 April 21, 2005 Nicely done. I think you have hit the nail on the head. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Travman 6 #3 April 21, 2005 Link doesn't seem to work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #4 April 21, 2005 The domain is a frame-based redirect to some free pages. I could only get the link to work from http://www3.telus.net/j_suter/do_not_share/dead_jaap_pack.wmvSkydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PerFlare 0 #5 April 21, 2005 Jaap, Kevin, If you do not mind me share some personal thoughts. I am not so sure (is this jump on video?) ... it is possible and even likely but can this be a classic case of a phenomenon that is not too unusual with going stowed with bigger PC's? (Especially bigger ones 42" and up, and with ZP's it is even more likely) with short delays ... Personally I have experienced it a few times but being careful and old as I am I rarely make low jumps and are a big fan of going hand held for various reasons ... The phenomenon I am talking about is underpressure when the mesh is ripped out from a compressed mushroom packed PC ... someone with better English maybe able to describe it, anyone? Tom? Either way, I like the analysis of a likely scenario … good work! PerFlare Ps. The name of the video just made my day, thanks Jaap. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mikki_ZH 0 #6 April 21, 2005 This video only shows what myself and a few others believe is not a good way of packing a pilotchute for base jumping. It does not show how to do a good one. I don't believe that somebody with my level of experience should present himself online showing how to do a mushroom or super-mushroom.Quote Thank you for posting the video. I pack my PC the same way! Can someone with more experience post a video how to pack a mushroom (not a supermushroom) the way it's suposed to open better? And also it would be very interessting to know who packs the way Jaap showed in his video ans who uses other methods.Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gabo 0 #7 April 21, 2005 YIKES!!! That is just the way I pack my pilot chute , I learned to do it that way and on the Tape I got from CR-Mojo Adam did it that way . I have jumped that way over 250 times and had no problem whatsoever. Maybe I have been very lucky !! Gabo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JaapSuter 0 #8 April 21, 2005 QuoteI have jumped that way over 250 times and had no problem whatsoever. Admittedly I'm relieved I'm not the only person out there that packed this way. Most of us agree that there was probably more going on than just a particular packjob. One theory is that the pilotchute left my hand too early. Maybe the packjob has nothing to do with it at all. Nonetheless, for me the demonstrated tug-point is reason enough to switch to a different packjob. I would love to see more experienced jumpers join and share their thoughts. By the way, does anybody have the Vertigo packing video at hand? I lend mine out to somebody else, and I'm curious about what they demonstrate. I'm still trying to find out where I learned this packjob. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mikki_ZH 0 #9 April 21, 2005 By the way, I learned how to pack my PC from Gabo... Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 460 0 #10 April 21, 2005 Jaap, is there any chance that there could have been a mitigating factor with your rig? For example, could some of your (although short) bridle worked its way under the corner of the rig next to the pouch after the pilot chute toss? Could pin tension have been high? -ChrisLooks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JaapSuter 0 #11 April 21, 2005 QuoteFor example, could some of your (although short) bridle worked its way under the corner of the rig next to the pouch after the pilot chute toss? Could pin tension have been high? Neither of these can be entirely ruled out I'm afraid. However, the person who gave me a pin check right before climbing over jumps the same type of container (Warlock) and has close to 200 jumps. He checked my pin-tension as well as my bridle-routing. My pins were primed halfway, with the connection point pointing down facing away from the flap. Pin-tension was not too high afaik. I don't think your suggestions can be ruled out completely, but I do believe I did my utmost to prevent them. Cheers, Jaap Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jimmyp 0 #12 April 21, 2005 The only difference between the method you are showing and the way we teach is that we leave more bridle out of the part that is contained by your hand as you toss. You should have a bit more bridle than full arm stretch out to the side in order to prevent this exact situation. The other result of not having enough bridle out of your grip, is that you can pull your pins. Once you release your grip, the bridle is free to extend to full stretch. Jimmy P. Apex BASE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JaapSuter 0 #13 April 21, 2005 Hi Jimmy, thanks for joining. QuoteThe only difference between the method you are showing and the way we teach is that we leave more bridle out of the part that is contained by your hand as you toss. Yeah, we considered that, and normally I actually leave out more than what I showed in the video. However, my problem with that is that I wonder where to put it. Do you just put the PC into the pouch, and stow/fumble/squeeze the slack bridle into it afterwards? I don't want to route/stow too much slack bridle underneath my flaps, for fear of a hang-up there. Thanks! Jaap Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #14 April 21, 2005 QuoteI learned to do it that way and on the Tape I got from CR-Mojo Adam did it that way The method Jaap showed is different than what the CR video shows. The method shown on the CR video shows the mesh being folded in half first, then the bridle is s-folded on top of the mesh.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Calvin19 0 #15 April 21, 2005 When i pack my pc, i actually leave half the bridal or more outside the folded PC, s folded on the OUTSIDE of the Pilot chute, inside the SPANDEX. I also do not fold the bridal inside the mesh of the pc, but again S fold it between the MESH and the ZP. This gives planty of throw room, prevents a lot of bridal dump, and keeps inflation sequential. My idea here is that nothing has to actually UNFOLD for bridal stretch or inflation. Any thoughts? -SPACE- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jimmyp 0 #16 April 21, 2005 The rest of the slack goes in between the zp and the mesh that you have contained the rest of the bridle in. The 2 differences are that the s folds are shorter so that they are not under your grip and they are not contained by the mesh as the other previous folds are. Once the pilot chute is extracted, they fall out of the pilot chute. I always stow the pilot chute first, then tuck just enough bridle so as not to be exposed under the side flap, then under the bridle protector flap and any excess remaining bridle just in between the bottom of the rig and PC(inside the BOC). JP I have attached a pic to clarify Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zennie 0 #17 April 21, 2005 QuoteFor example, could some of your (although short) bridle worked its way under the corner of the rig next to the pouch after the pilot chute toss? Could pin tension have been high? I did Jaap's gear check for that jump. His bridle was routed fine from the pouch to the pin flaps. There weren't any snag points in the setup that I could discern and the pin tension was fine (and primed 1/2-way). I do recall noticing something that I asked Jaap about... mainly because I've seen others do it a similar way and it always gives me (personally) the heebie jeebies). He had his PC stuffed fairly deeply into the pouch with maybe the cap + an inch & a half, 2 inches of PC protruding. Personally, I would have pulled a bit more out to make sure I could get a good firm grip on the PC, but I asked him if he liked it that way and he said yes. Vertigo pouches are a bit on the snug side so I'm wondering if perhaps the snugness of the pouch, plus the small amount of PC protruding may have resulted in an incomplete PC extraction. That said, I still swear I saw a PC come out when he pitched and then disappear again. No PC inflation though, that I'm positive of (at least not till it finally caught at about 100-110 feet or so). If only I hadn't botched that triple and turned off my camera in disgust. If you like I'll do your gear check for you next jump Chris. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lonnie 0 #18 April 21, 2005 I think that the way you were packing the PC is not the best way to do it. With the bridle wrapped up in the mesh, it can lock inside the PC until it can at least partially inflate. I agree it must have been a combination of things going wrong.This, plus a weak throw, or bridle holding back the throw, but it shows how it CAN happen. Changing so the bridle is s-folded on top of the mesh, and NOT wrapping the mesh around it will reduce the chances of it happening again. Glad your still here to help figure out what went wrong!NEVER GIVE UP! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lifewithoutanet 0 #19 April 21, 2005 QuoteThat said, I still swear I saw a PC come out when he pitched and then disappear again. No PC inflation though, that I'm positive of (at least not till it finally caught at about 100-110 feet or so). And I still confirm what you saw, and from a different angle, as I was up higher than you and more to the right of Jaap's heading, in the field. It was a good throw, but ended up in his burble (even if there's some questioning as to how much of a burble there is at that delay). It was just plain uninflated on his back until that final half-second. Smoke it high, Jaap! -C. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base515 0 #20 April 21, 2005 QuoteYIKES!!! That is just the way I pack my pilot chute , I learned to do it that way and on the Tape I got from CR-Mojo Adam did it that way . I have jumped that way over 250 times and had no problem whatsoever. Maybe I have been very lucky !! Gabo Your video must be different from mine, as it clearly shows it NOT being done that way. As mentioned earlier, the mesh is folded first, then the bridle on top of that. May we live long and die out Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Calvin19 0 #21 April 22, 2005 jaap, forgot to ask, was the 5 second jump on heading? -SPACE- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jalisco 0 #22 April 22, 2005 QuoteThe only difference between the method you are showing and the way we teach is that we leave more bridle out of the part that is contained by your hand as you toss. Just to clarify here -- I think Jaap s-folded his bridle onto the lower half of the fully extended mesh, and then folded the mesh in half -- that is, by flipping the lower half of the mesh and the s-folded bridle over together, bringing the attachment point up towards the gathered skirt, and thus sandwiching the s-folded bridle. Jimmy, your picture looks to me like it starts with what I was taught -- i.e., folding the mesh in half first and then s-folding the bridle on top of that, and then cocooning the mesh around (laterally) the s-folded bridle -- with some additional bridle s-folded on top of the mesh cocoon a little lower (so it's not in the "pud"). yes? no? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crwper 7 #23 April 22, 2005 You can see the inner bridle folds up closer to the pc fabric in Jimmy's photo. He's then wrapped a bit of mesh around that before making the outer bridle folds. Michael Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 0
Gabo 0 #7 April 21, 2005 YIKES!!! That is just the way I pack my pilot chute , I learned to do it that way and on the Tape I got from CR-Mojo Adam did it that way . I have jumped that way over 250 times and had no problem whatsoever. Maybe I have been very lucky !! Gabo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JaapSuter 0 #8 April 21, 2005 QuoteI have jumped that way over 250 times and had no problem whatsoever. Admittedly I'm relieved I'm not the only person out there that packed this way. Most of us agree that there was probably more going on than just a particular packjob. One theory is that the pilotchute left my hand too early. Maybe the packjob has nothing to do with it at all. Nonetheless, for me the demonstrated tug-point is reason enough to switch to a different packjob. I would love to see more experienced jumpers join and share their thoughts. By the way, does anybody have the Vertigo packing video at hand? I lend mine out to somebody else, and I'm curious about what they demonstrate. I'm still trying to find out where I learned this packjob. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mikki_ZH 0 #9 April 21, 2005 By the way, I learned how to pack my PC from Gabo... Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
460 0 #10 April 21, 2005 Jaap, is there any chance that there could have been a mitigating factor with your rig? For example, could some of your (although short) bridle worked its way under the corner of the rig next to the pouch after the pilot chute toss? Could pin tension have been high? -ChrisLooks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JaapSuter 0 #11 April 21, 2005 QuoteFor example, could some of your (although short) bridle worked its way under the corner of the rig next to the pouch after the pilot chute toss? Could pin tension have been high? Neither of these can be entirely ruled out I'm afraid. However, the person who gave me a pin check right before climbing over jumps the same type of container (Warlock) and has close to 200 jumps. He checked my pin-tension as well as my bridle-routing. My pins were primed halfway, with the connection point pointing down facing away from the flap. Pin-tension was not too high afaik. I don't think your suggestions can be ruled out completely, but I do believe I did my utmost to prevent them. Cheers, Jaap Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmyp 0 #12 April 21, 2005 The only difference between the method you are showing and the way we teach is that we leave more bridle out of the part that is contained by your hand as you toss. You should have a bit more bridle than full arm stretch out to the side in order to prevent this exact situation. The other result of not having enough bridle out of your grip, is that you can pull your pins. Once you release your grip, the bridle is free to extend to full stretch. Jimmy P. Apex BASE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JaapSuter 0 #13 April 21, 2005 Hi Jimmy, thanks for joining. QuoteThe only difference between the method you are showing and the way we teach is that we leave more bridle out of the part that is contained by your hand as you toss. Yeah, we considered that, and normally I actually leave out more than what I showed in the video. However, my problem with that is that I wonder where to put it. Do you just put the PC into the pouch, and stow/fumble/squeeze the slack bridle into it afterwards? I don't want to route/stow too much slack bridle underneath my flaps, for fear of a hang-up there. Thanks! Jaap Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #14 April 21, 2005 QuoteI learned to do it that way and on the Tape I got from CR-Mojo Adam did it that way The method Jaap showed is different than what the CR video shows. The method shown on the CR video shows the mesh being folded in half first, then the bridle is s-folded on top of the mesh.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #15 April 21, 2005 When i pack my pc, i actually leave half the bridal or more outside the folded PC, s folded on the OUTSIDE of the Pilot chute, inside the SPANDEX. I also do not fold the bridal inside the mesh of the pc, but again S fold it between the MESH and the ZP. This gives planty of throw room, prevents a lot of bridal dump, and keeps inflation sequential. My idea here is that nothing has to actually UNFOLD for bridal stretch or inflation. Any thoughts? -SPACE- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmyp 0 #16 April 21, 2005 The rest of the slack goes in between the zp and the mesh that you have contained the rest of the bridle in. The 2 differences are that the s folds are shorter so that they are not under your grip and they are not contained by the mesh as the other previous folds are. Once the pilot chute is extracted, they fall out of the pilot chute. I always stow the pilot chute first, then tuck just enough bridle so as not to be exposed under the side flap, then under the bridle protector flap and any excess remaining bridle just in between the bottom of the rig and PC(inside the BOC). JP I have attached a pic to clarify Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #17 April 21, 2005 QuoteFor example, could some of your (although short) bridle worked its way under the corner of the rig next to the pouch after the pilot chute toss? Could pin tension have been high? I did Jaap's gear check for that jump. His bridle was routed fine from the pouch to the pin flaps. There weren't any snag points in the setup that I could discern and the pin tension was fine (and primed 1/2-way). I do recall noticing something that I asked Jaap about... mainly because I've seen others do it a similar way and it always gives me (personally) the heebie jeebies). He had his PC stuffed fairly deeply into the pouch with maybe the cap + an inch & a half, 2 inches of PC protruding. Personally, I would have pulled a bit more out to make sure I could get a good firm grip on the PC, but I asked him if he liked it that way and he said yes. Vertigo pouches are a bit on the snug side so I'm wondering if perhaps the snugness of the pouch, plus the small amount of PC protruding may have resulted in an incomplete PC extraction. That said, I still swear I saw a PC come out when he pitched and then disappear again. No PC inflation though, that I'm positive of (at least not till it finally caught at about 100-110 feet or so). If only I hadn't botched that triple and turned off my camera in disgust. If you like I'll do your gear check for you next jump Chris. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lonnie 0 #18 April 21, 2005 I think that the way you were packing the PC is not the best way to do it. With the bridle wrapped up in the mesh, it can lock inside the PC until it can at least partially inflate. I agree it must have been a combination of things going wrong.This, plus a weak throw, or bridle holding back the throw, but it shows how it CAN happen. Changing so the bridle is s-folded on top of the mesh, and NOT wrapping the mesh around it will reduce the chances of it happening again. Glad your still here to help figure out what went wrong!NEVER GIVE UP! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lifewithoutanet 0 #19 April 21, 2005 QuoteThat said, I still swear I saw a PC come out when he pitched and then disappear again. No PC inflation though, that I'm positive of (at least not till it finally caught at about 100-110 feet or so). And I still confirm what you saw, and from a different angle, as I was up higher than you and more to the right of Jaap's heading, in the field. It was a good throw, but ended up in his burble (even if there's some questioning as to how much of a burble there is at that delay). It was just plain uninflated on his back until that final half-second. Smoke it high, Jaap! -C. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base515 0 #20 April 21, 2005 QuoteYIKES!!! That is just the way I pack my pilot chute , I learned to do it that way and on the Tape I got from CR-Mojo Adam did it that way . I have jumped that way over 250 times and had no problem whatsoever. Maybe I have been very lucky !! Gabo Your video must be different from mine, as it clearly shows it NOT being done that way. As mentioned earlier, the mesh is folded first, then the bridle on top of that. May we live long and die out Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #21 April 22, 2005 jaap, forgot to ask, was the 5 second jump on heading? -SPACE- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jalisco 0 #22 April 22, 2005 QuoteThe only difference between the method you are showing and the way we teach is that we leave more bridle out of the part that is contained by your hand as you toss. Just to clarify here -- I think Jaap s-folded his bridle onto the lower half of the fully extended mesh, and then folded the mesh in half -- that is, by flipping the lower half of the mesh and the s-folded bridle over together, bringing the attachment point up towards the gathered skirt, and thus sandwiching the s-folded bridle. Jimmy, your picture looks to me like it starts with what I was taught -- i.e., folding the mesh in half first and then s-folding the bridle on top of that, and then cocooning the mesh around (laterally) the s-folded bridle -- with some additional bridle s-folded on top of the mesh cocoon a little lower (so it's not in the "pud"). yes? no? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwper 7 #23 April 22, 2005 You can see the inner bridle folds up closer to the pc fabric in Jimmy's photo. He's then wrapped a bit of mesh around that before making the outer bridle folds. Michael Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
