RhondaLea 3 #26 April 19, 2005 Quoteyou mean 175, B.L. Rhonda, call him, he's been in the hospital with pneumonia. Well, it can't be dyslexia, so it must be old age. Or something. This is just a public service announcement to say that anywhere I've ever used the other number (several times) I meant 175. Thank you, Chris. Talking to him was wonderful. He's one of the best people I've ever known. Sorry to hijack your thread, Jaap, but you can have it back now, with the knowledge that the ripple effect of your near-miss was an unintended blessing for which I am profoundly grateful. rl Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #27 April 19, 2005 Hi Jaap, Glad that you came through that ok dude. I've drawn a pic of how I understand the 'bad' packjob. Is that right? GusOutpatientsOnline.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #28 April 19, 2005 Quote QuoteOther interesting trivia about this incident: You forgot to mention how you screamed "Oh shit!" before the canopy opened...in English, rather than your native Dutch. -C. "Oh shit" is native Dutch...it's just pronounced different "Oh Schjit" I guess Jaap is not the person to play with when it comes to a low-pull contest...glad you're still around dude....I'll see you when you're back in 'the lowlands' in a few months...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #29 April 19, 2005 Nice pic Gus, that was how I understood it too. I'm not convinced the PC folding method was the only factor. Given Jaap's relative inexperience perhaps what he thought was a good pitch wasn't quite so strong? Maybe the PC wasn't pitched into clean air but was released into his burble? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cleatus 0 #30 April 19, 2005 As a witness to your spectacular feet I only have one question. How did that tri-tip treat you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #31 April 19, 2005 QuoteGiven Jaap's relative inexperience perhaps what he thought was a good pitch wasn't quite so strong? Yes, but there were at least three people (Clem, Denise and Ted) watching who each had hundreds of BASE jumps. All three of them reported that his pitch was strong. Personally, I wondered this, too. I also wonder if his strong pitch was just the hand motion, and he somehow "dropped" the PC early in the pitch (or had it pulled from his hand by the restricted bridle) without noticing. QuoteMaybe the PC wasn't pitched into clean air but was released into his burble? This is all my best understanding. I'm not a physicist, so take with appropriate salting, but as I understand it: At terminal a falling body has a burble that is twice as long as the width of the body (so, a human falling belly to earth will have a terminal burble roughly twice as long as the distance from shoulder to shoulder). This burble begins at zero (no airspeed=no burble) and increases at a geometric progression until it reaches it's terminal size. That means that most of it's size is attained in the last few seconds before reaching terminal. Jaap's burble at the time of his pitch (say, 2 seconds down) would have been so small that getting a 42" PC stuck in it ought to be practically impossible unless the PC was somehow "stuck" in the spandex pouch, or "stuck" in it's own folded shape. I think the "PC stuck in burble" thing is vastly overrated on subterminal BASE jumps. The burble just isn't that big yet.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #32 April 19, 2005 QuoteI think the "PC stuck in burble" thing is vastly overrated on subterminal BASE jumps. The burble just isn't that big yet. Good point, I get it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BASE813 0 #33 April 19, 2005 QuoteThis burble begins at zero (no airspeed=no burble) and increases at a geometric progression until it reaches it's terminal size. That means that most of it's size is attained in the last few seconds before reaching terminal. any information on this and the delays and size of burbles? I have tried to find info on this (and posted on BLiNC without any response!) I would be interested in mathematical data if you have it?! Thanks Michael Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Treejumps 0 #34 April 19, 2005 I agree that the burble effect is an unlikely culprit sub-terminal. It also seems pretty unusual to me that the PC packing could have held itself closed unless it had been left packed for a long time. What make/model PC was used? Any unusual catch points on the fold backs on the bridle? Have you thouroughly checkd the PC construction for snag points at the base? As this was one blip away from a fatality, as is any PC malfunction, finding out why, or at least eliminating each possiblility is critical. Cya, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 25 #35 April 19, 2005 QuoteIt also seems pretty unusual to me that the PC packing could have held itself closed unless it had been left packed for a long time. Also to me. Which is why I was wondering about it leaving his hand prematurely, or other possibilities. Unfortunately, we don't have video, so the best we can do is speculate based on what we do know. QuoteWhat make/model PC was used? Apex/Vertigo 42". It was pretty much brand new. QuoteAny unusual catch points on the fold backs on the bridle? Not that I could find. QuoteHave you thouroughly checkd the PC construction for snag points at the base? Yes. I couldn't locate any. Pretty much the only noteworthy thing about the PC was that the ZP it was made from appeared to be much heavier than the ZP I've commonly seen. One jumper commented that it looked like "paraglider ZP". It was very thick--almost waxy. We were able to make it hold it's shape pretty easily when table testing (I expect that wear will reduce this effect, but this one was pretty much brand new).-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 460 0 #36 April 19, 2005 I suggest grounding this pilot chute. Check the pilot chute for any hot knifed edges that can create one or several small hooks. One of these 'hooks' can catch on something like the mesh and prevent the pilot chute from inflating. A towed pilot chute has caused several deaths. More than having a reserve parachute, I wish we had a reserve pilot chute sometimes for when the main pilot chute is failing. Perhaps when the main pilot chute extracts the pins or velcro, it disconnects the reserve pilot chute. If the main pilot chute fails, (somehow) deploy the reserve pilot chute. I know, I know... The system is now more complicated and can be more prone to failure.Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #37 April 19, 2005 If it's the same material that precision sends out, it's just like my Xaos. The "Waxy" substance is just the silcon coating. It's only heavier by feel but nothing substantial. I highly doubt the ZP coating is the culprit.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZegeunerLeben 0 #38 April 19, 2005 >>I'd like to see a complete re-design of the PC. It doesn't seem like they've changed much over the years aside from the advent of ZP, venting and load-tape orientation. Once my design manual finally arrives I want to start stitching some prototypes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JaapSuter 0 #39 April 19, 2005 QuoteInteresting. I've used the same method, for the same reason, for maybe 100 jumps without anything I could recognize as hesitation. I must admit that I am slightly relieved to see that I am not the only one who is using this packjob. Other experienced jumpers have commented that if they saw me pack my PC, they would at most think: "Huh, that's different...", not "Dude, you're going to die!" This leads me to believe my pitch was a factor as well. See my comments below. QuoteSorry to hijack your thread, Jaap No problem. Glad to be of service! QuoteI've drawn a pic of how I understand the 'bad' packjob. Is that right? Yes, that's a great drawing. Thanks Gus! QuoteYes, but there were at least three people (Clem, Denise and Ted) watching who each had hundreds of BASE jumps. All three of them reported that his pitch was strong. Personally, I wondered this, too. I also wonder if his strong pitch was just the hand motion, and he somehow "dropped" the PC early in the pitch (or had it pulled from his hand by the restricted bridle) without noticing. Unfortunately we'll never find out, because we don't have video. I will honestly admit that I was never a death-grip baseball-style pilotchute pitcher. The line of thought being that throwing your PC too far away might cause oscillations. My throwing technique has always worked for skydives (never had burble problems) and in all my stowed base jumps, so I figured it was strong enough. Rest assured that I am now a converted death-grip pitcher. I am going to get that PC as far away from me as possible. I would rather risk having an offheading induced by pilotchute oscillations than a pilotchute hesitation or failure. Maybe once I get to a more advanced level, I can start thinking about putting back some moderation in my pitch, but for now I'm going to huck that thing away from my body like it's a ticking timebomb. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JaapSuter 0 #40 April 19, 2005 QuoteI suggest grounding this pilot chute. That is what I have done. If not for rational reasons, than at least to make me feel better at the exit point. QuoteIf it's the same material that precision sends out, it's just like my Xaos. The "Waxy" substance is just the silcon coating. It's only heavier by feel but nothing substantial. I highly doubt the ZP coating is the culprit. The material is noticable more rigid and plasticy. If you extend the ZP all the way and hold it so it points upwards, it takes more shaking to have it fold downward than with other ZP pilotchutes. Maybe it'll wear and become more flexible over time, and probably it's a neglectible effect, but I like my pilotchutes to provide zero-resistance when inflating. I'll be in touch with the manufacturer with some questions about the pilotchute. Just to reiterate though; I'm currently blaming my packing technique and a PC-throw that we'll never find the details on. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zennie 0 #41 April 19, 2005 QuoteCheck the pilot chute for any hot knifed edges that can create one or several small hooks. One of these 'hooks' can catch on something like the mesh and prevent the pilot chute from inflating. I checked for that for several minutes, playing with the edge points in the centerline and trying to get it to snag. I couldn't, so I'm fairly confident that that wasn't the culprit. Still I agree that until the PC itself can be 100% ruled out as the culprit, it should be grounded. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Treejumps 0 #42 April 19, 2005 It sounds like a pitch problem, coupled with an unusually stiff PC material packed in a less than optimal method caused this near death situation. When in doubt, have someone (more experienced) check your new gear. Specs and materials change all of the time, and a veteran's eye may have raised and eyebrow. One little mistake and there goes your whole day. I'll bet your neck is sore from that opening. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hollyhjb 0 #43 April 19, 2005 QuoteWhen in doubt, have someone (more experienced) check your new gear. Specs and materials change all of the time, and a veteran's eye may have raised and eyebrow. It was stated before in the thread that he did have an experienced jumper check his gear at the site just before his jump. It is really unfortunate that we don't have video of this, but a lot of really good points have been brought up. Maybe a video would have cleared this thing up is a few hours, but the speculations that have come up on this thread are potentially more valuable."I reject your reality and substitute my own" ~Adam Savage Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JaapSuter 0 #44 April 19, 2005 QuoteIt sounds like a pitch problem, coupled with an unusually stiff PC material packed in a less than optimal method caused this near death situation. I am inclined to agree. QuoteWhen in doubt, have someone (more experienced) check your new gear. Specs and materials change all of the time, and a veteran's eye may have raised and eyebrow. This was done for sure! In fact, I wanted to get a jump in early that day on my new gear, but postponed it because I wanted Tom and Tedd to take a look at my three-rings and big-grab toggles because I had some questions about them (I had just gotten a new container). At least three experiened people looked at my pilotchute. They all agreed that it felt 'waxy' and more rigid than other PC's, but deemed it jumpable. That is not to say that they are to blame for what happened obviously. This accident was solely my mistake and my responsibility. Which brings me to what I believe is the most important lesson of this incident. (See next post...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JaapSuter 0 #45 April 19, 2005 QuoteOne little mistake and there goes your whole day. Exactly. So here's the biggest lesson I got out of this incident... Do not ever assume something doesn't matter in BASE, because maybe it does matter and could save your life. I think that in my short base career, for every valuable question I have asked, I have asked at least four questions about things that didn't matter. I recall doing courses with both Tom and Jimmy and asking lots of silly things about micro-reefing, weird folds and position of fabric. Most of those questions were not relevant, because as long as the lines are straight and in the middle, the fabric folding is a lot less important (within reason). This can lead to a point where sometimes you don't ask about some things because you assume that it's not something that matters. I've heard one experience jumper say: "I've seen many different PC (mushroom) packjobs, and they all work." Apparently not all do it equally well... If you're a beginning base jumper (or an experienced one for that matter), don't ever be afraid to ask something, even when it looks irrelevant. Try to reach a ratio where only one in every ten questions is one that actually had a useful answer. Maybe you'll piss some experienced base jumers off. Maybe you'll get your base mentor impatient. Maybe people will think you are stupid and that you can't think for yourself. In the end it doesn't matter. It might save your life some day, and there are always plenty of experienced jumpers who don't mind the silly questions. They were once beginners too... QuoteI'll bet your neck is sore from that opening. Surprisingly not. Weird... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BASE813 0 #46 April 19, 2005 there is no such thing as a stupid question, ever.......... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites leroydb 0 #47 April 19, 2005 Quotethere is no such thing as a stupid question, ever.......... without a doubt, true! always ask a question no matter how unimportant it may "seem"Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brits17 0 #48 April 20, 2005 The more I read this thread, the more I believe it was PC packing error + some weird cosmic force (whether weak pitch or burble). Of course, its all speculation and we may never be quite sure. This is a good eye-opener for me and the people I'm surrounded by in BASE. Its a reminder to never be complacent in anything, this sport is not merciful. I'm glad you're ok Jaap, and I really enjoy reading your posts here. Love your attitude man, look forward to meeting you... now that I've survived a machine gun crazed farmer and you've survived a near smack in the water, hopefully we've dodged the reaper till we get to say hello _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites leroydb 0 #49 April 20, 2005 Quotenow that I've survived a machine gun crazed farmer eh? do tell or PM pleaseLeroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brits17 0 #50 April 20, 2005 QuoteQuotenow that I've survived a machine gun crazed farmer eh? do tell or PM please Its a joke _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 0
BASE813 0 #33 April 19, 2005 QuoteThis burble begins at zero (no airspeed=no burble) and increases at a geometric progression until it reaches it's terminal size. That means that most of it's size is attained in the last few seconds before reaching terminal. any information on this and the delays and size of burbles? I have tried to find info on this (and posted on BLiNC without any response!) I would be interested in mathematical data if you have it?! Thanks Michael Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #34 April 19, 2005 I agree that the burble effect is an unlikely culprit sub-terminal. It also seems pretty unusual to me that the PC packing could have held itself closed unless it had been left packed for a long time. What make/model PC was used? Any unusual catch points on the fold backs on the bridle? Have you thouroughly checkd the PC construction for snag points at the base? As this was one blip away from a fatality, as is any PC malfunction, finding out why, or at least eliminating each possiblility is critical. Cya, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #35 April 19, 2005 QuoteIt also seems pretty unusual to me that the PC packing could have held itself closed unless it had been left packed for a long time. Also to me. Which is why I was wondering about it leaving his hand prematurely, or other possibilities. Unfortunately, we don't have video, so the best we can do is speculate based on what we do know. QuoteWhat make/model PC was used? Apex/Vertigo 42". It was pretty much brand new. QuoteAny unusual catch points on the fold backs on the bridle? Not that I could find. QuoteHave you thouroughly checkd the PC construction for snag points at the base? Yes. I couldn't locate any. Pretty much the only noteworthy thing about the PC was that the ZP it was made from appeared to be much heavier than the ZP I've commonly seen. One jumper commented that it looked like "paraglider ZP". It was very thick--almost waxy. We were able to make it hold it's shape pretty easily when table testing (I expect that wear will reduce this effect, but this one was pretty much brand new).-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
460 0 #36 April 19, 2005 I suggest grounding this pilot chute. Check the pilot chute for any hot knifed edges that can create one or several small hooks. One of these 'hooks' can catch on something like the mesh and prevent the pilot chute from inflating. A towed pilot chute has caused several deaths. More than having a reserve parachute, I wish we had a reserve pilot chute sometimes for when the main pilot chute is failing. Perhaps when the main pilot chute extracts the pins or velcro, it disconnects the reserve pilot chute. If the main pilot chute fails, (somehow) deploy the reserve pilot chute. I know, I know... The system is now more complicated and can be more prone to failure.Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #37 April 19, 2005 If it's the same material that precision sends out, it's just like my Xaos. The "Waxy" substance is just the silcon coating. It's only heavier by feel but nothing substantial. I highly doubt the ZP coating is the culprit.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZegeunerLeben 0 #38 April 19, 2005 >>I'd like to see a complete re-design of the PC. It doesn't seem like they've changed much over the years aside from the advent of ZP, venting and load-tape orientation. Once my design manual finally arrives I want to start stitching some prototypes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JaapSuter 0 #39 April 19, 2005 QuoteInteresting. I've used the same method, for the same reason, for maybe 100 jumps without anything I could recognize as hesitation. I must admit that I am slightly relieved to see that I am not the only one who is using this packjob. Other experienced jumpers have commented that if they saw me pack my PC, they would at most think: "Huh, that's different...", not "Dude, you're going to die!" This leads me to believe my pitch was a factor as well. See my comments below. QuoteSorry to hijack your thread, Jaap No problem. Glad to be of service! QuoteI've drawn a pic of how I understand the 'bad' packjob. Is that right? Yes, that's a great drawing. Thanks Gus! QuoteYes, but there were at least three people (Clem, Denise and Ted) watching who each had hundreds of BASE jumps. All three of them reported that his pitch was strong. Personally, I wondered this, too. I also wonder if his strong pitch was just the hand motion, and he somehow "dropped" the PC early in the pitch (or had it pulled from his hand by the restricted bridle) without noticing. Unfortunately we'll never find out, because we don't have video. I will honestly admit that I was never a death-grip baseball-style pilotchute pitcher. The line of thought being that throwing your PC too far away might cause oscillations. My throwing technique has always worked for skydives (never had burble problems) and in all my stowed base jumps, so I figured it was strong enough. Rest assured that I am now a converted death-grip pitcher. I am going to get that PC as far away from me as possible. I would rather risk having an offheading induced by pilotchute oscillations than a pilotchute hesitation or failure. Maybe once I get to a more advanced level, I can start thinking about putting back some moderation in my pitch, but for now I'm going to huck that thing away from my body like it's a ticking timebomb. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JaapSuter 0 #40 April 19, 2005 QuoteI suggest grounding this pilot chute. That is what I have done. If not for rational reasons, than at least to make me feel better at the exit point. QuoteIf it's the same material that precision sends out, it's just like my Xaos. The "Waxy" substance is just the silcon coating. It's only heavier by feel but nothing substantial. I highly doubt the ZP coating is the culprit. The material is noticable more rigid and plasticy. If you extend the ZP all the way and hold it so it points upwards, it takes more shaking to have it fold downward than with other ZP pilotchutes. Maybe it'll wear and become more flexible over time, and probably it's a neglectible effect, but I like my pilotchutes to provide zero-resistance when inflating. I'll be in touch with the manufacturer with some questions about the pilotchute. Just to reiterate though; I'm currently blaming my packing technique and a PC-throw that we'll never find the details on. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #41 April 19, 2005 QuoteCheck the pilot chute for any hot knifed edges that can create one or several small hooks. One of these 'hooks' can catch on something like the mesh and prevent the pilot chute from inflating. I checked for that for several minutes, playing with the edge points in the centerline and trying to get it to snag. I couldn't, so I'm fairly confident that that wasn't the culprit. Still I agree that until the PC itself can be 100% ruled out as the culprit, it should be grounded. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #42 April 19, 2005 It sounds like a pitch problem, coupled with an unusually stiff PC material packed in a less than optimal method caused this near death situation. When in doubt, have someone (more experienced) check your new gear. Specs and materials change all of the time, and a veteran's eye may have raised and eyebrow. One little mistake and there goes your whole day. I'll bet your neck is sore from that opening. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hollyhjb 0 #43 April 19, 2005 QuoteWhen in doubt, have someone (more experienced) check your new gear. Specs and materials change all of the time, and a veteran's eye may have raised and eyebrow. It was stated before in the thread that he did have an experienced jumper check his gear at the site just before his jump. It is really unfortunate that we don't have video of this, but a lot of really good points have been brought up. Maybe a video would have cleared this thing up is a few hours, but the speculations that have come up on this thread are potentially more valuable."I reject your reality and substitute my own" ~Adam Savage Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JaapSuter 0 #44 April 19, 2005 QuoteIt sounds like a pitch problem, coupled with an unusually stiff PC material packed in a less than optimal method caused this near death situation. I am inclined to agree. QuoteWhen in doubt, have someone (more experienced) check your new gear. Specs and materials change all of the time, and a veteran's eye may have raised and eyebrow. This was done for sure! In fact, I wanted to get a jump in early that day on my new gear, but postponed it because I wanted Tom and Tedd to take a look at my three-rings and big-grab toggles because I had some questions about them (I had just gotten a new container). At least three experiened people looked at my pilotchute. They all agreed that it felt 'waxy' and more rigid than other PC's, but deemed it jumpable. That is not to say that they are to blame for what happened obviously. This accident was solely my mistake and my responsibility. Which brings me to what I believe is the most important lesson of this incident. (See next post...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JaapSuter 0 #45 April 19, 2005 QuoteOne little mistake and there goes your whole day. Exactly. So here's the biggest lesson I got out of this incident... Do not ever assume something doesn't matter in BASE, because maybe it does matter and could save your life. I think that in my short base career, for every valuable question I have asked, I have asked at least four questions about things that didn't matter. I recall doing courses with both Tom and Jimmy and asking lots of silly things about micro-reefing, weird folds and position of fabric. Most of those questions were not relevant, because as long as the lines are straight and in the middle, the fabric folding is a lot less important (within reason). This can lead to a point where sometimes you don't ask about some things because you assume that it's not something that matters. I've heard one experience jumper say: "I've seen many different PC (mushroom) packjobs, and they all work." Apparently not all do it equally well... If you're a beginning base jumper (or an experienced one for that matter), don't ever be afraid to ask something, even when it looks irrelevant. Try to reach a ratio where only one in every ten questions is one that actually had a useful answer. Maybe you'll piss some experienced base jumers off. Maybe you'll get your base mentor impatient. Maybe people will think you are stupid and that you can't think for yourself. In the end it doesn't matter. It might save your life some day, and there are always plenty of experienced jumpers who don't mind the silly questions. They were once beginners too... QuoteI'll bet your neck is sore from that opening. Surprisingly not. Weird... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BASE813 0 #46 April 19, 2005 there is no such thing as a stupid question, ever.......... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #47 April 19, 2005 Quotethere is no such thing as a stupid question, ever.......... without a doubt, true! always ask a question no matter how unimportant it may "seem"Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #48 April 20, 2005 The more I read this thread, the more I believe it was PC packing error + some weird cosmic force (whether weak pitch or burble). Of course, its all speculation and we may never be quite sure. This is a good eye-opener for me and the people I'm surrounded by in BASE. Its a reminder to never be complacent in anything, this sport is not merciful. I'm glad you're ok Jaap, and I really enjoy reading your posts here. Love your attitude man, look forward to meeting you... now that I've survived a machine gun crazed farmer and you've survived a near smack in the water, hopefully we've dodged the reaper till we get to say hello _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #49 April 20, 2005 Quotenow that I've survived a machine gun crazed farmer eh? do tell or PM pleaseLeroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #50 April 20, 2005 QuoteQuotenow that I've survived a machine gun crazed farmer eh? do tell or PM please Its a joke _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
