airtwardo 6 #51 March 27, 2005 QuoteWe could call it . . . what? Quote "Real Incredible Stupid People?" ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eb66to77 0 #52 March 27, 2005 QuoteWe could call it . . . what? The "Not sure what that was all about" list. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #53 March 27, 2005 I am for him being on the List. I agree.. make a 3rd section. It would make us that want him on the list happy... it would also be OK with the "hardliners"... Hell, you are keeping up the list... do with it what YOU want. YOU are doing this for all of us. I quote the following from an anonymous source, Quote"Fuck everybody else. There's always going to be armchair Quarterbacks." Nick, we appreciate what you do with the list. I am for what ever you do!Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicrussell 0 #54 March 27, 2005 What if someone went in doing a rollover, or tard? They would have an open parachute ON the exit point, intending to jump. Would that be a BASE fatality? I would say yea. I am leaning FOR Ken to be put on the list. nic Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
badenhop 0 #55 March 28, 2005 Nick, if you are opposed to: "Stupid Human Tricks That Got Someone Killed", then how about: "Other Bummers Involving Parachutes (Or NOT), That Are Bound To Upset Jason Bell And The Victim's Family".================================== I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton http://www.AveryBadenhop.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rpersi 0 #56 March 28, 2005 We could call it . . . what? Quote BASE honorable mention? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RhondaLea 3 #57 March 28, 2005 My personal favorite: Quote The "Not sure what that was all about" list. On the earlier discussion, I don't think you should be too concerned about letting logic rule in placing people on the list. If you do, you'll be compelled to put me on it when I die, and five jumps or not, I'm not a BASE jumper. I'm glad you decided for putting Swyers on the list, though. It defies strict logic, but it feels right. rl Share this post Link to post Share on other sites op5e 0 #58 March 28, 2005 I would ask what you consider the early plane, object, ground jumps and think where you would place these people if the unfortunate occured. Some of these people if I am not mistaken are considered base jumpers even if they did not continue doing more fixed objects. Mind you BASE is all four object types so does the person need a base number. I personally would consider someone who you know is obviously worthy of the bottom list, and then place them in the same shoes as this jump and ask yourself where it would be placed. It sounds like this is his first attempt at a fixed object, but it would be weird if you make a new list for him and then someone attempts a similar thing but because they are well known you then place them on the top list. I do agree with Tom that this list has a large number of very important lessons and it would be benifital to add him somewhere on your list (top bottom or new). It appears he did alot of research, so I am guessing if someone was in a similar boat today, hopefully they will find reference to this incident and learn from it. I personally think that it should be something along the lines of "Accidents jumping from fixed objects (non base)" would be the general gist of the title I would use. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skypuppy 1 #59 March 28, 2005 Well, I think he should be on the list somewhere, but then I;ve always thought Overacker should be on it somewhere, too.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites edge01 1 #60 March 28, 2005 intent was there.So yes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,121 #61 March 28, 2005 I remember hearing about it, and reading about it. At the time, the definition of BASE was still pretty fluid. Yes, I think Carl Boenish had already come up with the acronym, but skydivers taking their sport rigs and going to find a building or antenna or bridge for a weekend's diversion was pretty much how it happened. Had it worked it would have been a BASE jump. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Faber 0 #62 March 28, 2005 jumping out of a plane is a skydive.. that simple.. Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites K763 0 #63 March 28, 2005 Hi Nick- After reading the story I feel that if it does make The List, it should be on the bottom section since it was a skydive. If he never was a BASE jumper (no base jumps at all) it should not be on Our List. Peace, K Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NickDG 23 #64 March 28, 2005 It's now fifteen for, and seventeen against. (One or two others made good points, but didn't voice a vote.) None of those proposed section names are going to fly, LOL . . . NickD BASE 194 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #65 March 28, 2005 In Pursuit of the Sport My vote is for. Poor scouting and forsight lead to this incident.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sabre210 0 #66 March 28, 2005 The third category sounds like a reasonable solution. However it does open the door to some serious re-thinking. How could you not include people like Franz Reichelt who plunged to his death after intentionally stepping off the eiffel tower in 1912 wearing a cross between a wingsuit and a parachute??? This fixed object jump was clearly made with the faith and belief that it was achievable and survivable.....put another way, it wasn't a suicide. To not include him simply because he wasn't jumping with a conventional parachute is a bit short-sighted as who knows what jumpers will be wearing and landing in the next few decades; bear in mind the current desire to jump and land a wingsuit could lead us to the first non parachute BASE wingsuit fatality. If this were to happen would the person in question not make the list just because they weren't intending to deploy a ram air canopy to land.??? Talk about a can of worms ian Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FIREFLYR 0 #67 March 28, 2005 After following this thread for a few days and changing my mind back and fourth I finally got to the reason I vote ,NO. Making the decision to step off a fixed object is a hell of a thing to do, I struggle with the idea almost every time I'm on an object, sometimes I climb down. Often I'm all for doing a jump but once I get up there well...it's a lot harder to step off than I thought it would be. Stranding yourself on an object is no guarantee you would jump. Having never made a BASE jump who is to say he would have stepped off? Ken died attempting to land a parachute on the arch after a skydive, he never got to the point where he would make a BASE jump to the ground below. ~J"One flew East,and one flew West..............one flew over the cuckoo's nest" "There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggersam 0 #68 March 28, 2005 IMHO, I think its reasonable to put him at the bottom. I think the situation is perhaps comparable to Jurgen's death in that he had no intention of exiting at that moment. Mark Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SwampThing 0 #69 March 29, 2005 Yes! It was 25 years ago, he most likely didn't know it was illegal to do an illegal BASE jump starting from an airplane! The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!" The Optimist says: "Sure it can!" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tyrion 0 #70 March 29, 2005 I'm an outsider at the moment (not for long tho!), but here's my take. I vote No. Ken died trying to get to the exit point, not doing the jump. That may seem harsh but i think it's right. I think it would be a better idea to put him and the jetski guy in a 3rd section, "B.A.S.E. Related Fatalities". (or something similiar) Cheers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base695 0 #71 March 29, 2005 I vote yes...he died doing a bad-ass attempted base jump. In fact I see more legitamacy in this as a bona fide base jump (he really didnt know what the hell was gonna happen but he rolled the dice anyway) compared to the thousands of 1 second delays from huge bridges with open landing areas that happen every year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Faber 0 #72 March 29, 2005 if you didnt take my statement as a vote i just say it here: NO Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Faber 0 #73 March 29, 2005 QuoteIn fact I see more legitamacy in this as a bona fide base jump (he really didnt know what the hell was gonna happen but he rolled the dice anyway) compared to the thousands of 1 second delays from huge bridges with open landing areas that happen every year. so the more balls or use of stupidety should guide to be on the list? i dont second. a 1 sec delay off an high S still is a BASE,that the person choose to play safe is up to him or her... He made a jump from an airplane,misjugded his landingarea and felt to his death. to me thats a skydiveincedent... or do i get on the topsection if i die driving to my object? No dying while DOING a BASEjump makes it to the toplist,If a person who made 1 BASEjump die whith other than á BASEjump then he makes it to the bottom. He did neither... he jumped off a airplane and died from that action.That he wanted to jump from his LZ is plans in the future which never happened.therefore he were a skydiver who died skydiving. Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TVPB 0 #74 March 29, 2005 He does NOT belong on the first list. Assuming all the info is correct, when he came off the Arch, he had no intention of jumping at that point in time. Refer to his intent and all the anecdotal evidence presented on this thread. He intended to land, cut the main canopy away, pack it, throw it down, and then jump off. He did not consciously or intentionally exit from the Arch, wind and the drag induced by his main canopy forced him off. If a gust of wind blows me off an exit point whilst I am looking over the edge, I am not going to log that as a BASE jump. He only attempted to deploy his reserve because he saw no other option to save his life at the time. People who die in an aircraft on take off or on the way to altitude DO NOT DIE skydiving, no matter what they intended to do later. They died whilst in transit to their destination. Skydiving is the freefall component of a parachute descent. The climb to height is neither freefall nor a parachute descent. Alcoholics who die in a car accident whilst on the way to a bar DO NOT DIE from drunk driving (unless they were actually drunk at the time). A mountain climber flying to The Himalayas who gets killed when his plane crashes did not die Mountaineering - even if this was his intent. He did not die mountaineering if he fell over at BASE camp and fatally injured himself. In the end, Ken sounds like a nice bloke and deserves to be remembered one way or another. To those that knew and loved him, my condolences. I sat underneath The Arch at the same location in 2003 thinking the same things. St Louis is a nice place. The people at Quantum Leap are great too. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites littlestranger 0 #75 March 29, 2005 QuoteSkydiving is the freefall component of a parachute descent. So, using your logic, a hop-n-pop is not a skydive, and neither is a static line jump...but a cliff jump with a 5 second delay is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 0 Go To Topic Listing
RhondaLea 3 #57 March 28, 2005 My personal favorite: Quote The "Not sure what that was all about" list. On the earlier discussion, I don't think you should be too concerned about letting logic rule in placing people on the list. If you do, you'll be compelled to put me on it when I die, and five jumps or not, I'm not a BASE jumper. I'm glad you decided for putting Swyers on the list, though. It defies strict logic, but it feels right. rl Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
op5e 0 #58 March 28, 2005 I would ask what you consider the early plane, object, ground jumps and think where you would place these people if the unfortunate occured. Some of these people if I am not mistaken are considered base jumpers even if they did not continue doing more fixed objects. Mind you BASE is all four object types so does the person need a base number. I personally would consider someone who you know is obviously worthy of the bottom list, and then place them in the same shoes as this jump and ask yourself where it would be placed. It sounds like this is his first attempt at a fixed object, but it would be weird if you make a new list for him and then someone attempts a similar thing but because they are well known you then place them on the top list. I do agree with Tom that this list has a large number of very important lessons and it would be benifital to add him somewhere on your list (top bottom or new). It appears he did alot of research, so I am guessing if someone was in a similar boat today, hopefully they will find reference to this incident and learn from it. I personally think that it should be something along the lines of "Accidents jumping from fixed objects (non base)" would be the general gist of the title I would use. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #59 March 28, 2005 Well, I think he should be on the list somewhere, but then I;ve always thought Overacker should be on it somewhere, too.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
edge01 1 #60 March 28, 2005 intent was there.So yes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,121 #61 March 28, 2005 I remember hearing about it, and reading about it. At the time, the definition of BASE was still pretty fluid. Yes, I think Carl Boenish had already come up with the acronym, but skydivers taking their sport rigs and going to find a building or antenna or bridge for a weekend's diversion was pretty much how it happened. Had it worked it would have been a BASE jump. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #62 March 28, 2005 jumping out of a plane is a skydive.. that simple.. Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
K763 0 #63 March 28, 2005 Hi Nick- After reading the story I feel that if it does make The List, it should be on the bottom section since it was a skydive. If he never was a BASE jumper (no base jumps at all) it should not be on Our List. Peace, K Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #64 March 28, 2005 It's now fifteen for, and seventeen against. (One or two others made good points, but didn't voice a vote.) None of those proposed section names are going to fly, LOL . . . NickD BASE 194 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #65 March 28, 2005 In Pursuit of the Sport My vote is for. Poor scouting and forsight lead to this incident.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sabre210 0 #66 March 28, 2005 The third category sounds like a reasonable solution. However it does open the door to some serious re-thinking. How could you not include people like Franz Reichelt who plunged to his death after intentionally stepping off the eiffel tower in 1912 wearing a cross between a wingsuit and a parachute??? This fixed object jump was clearly made with the faith and belief that it was achievable and survivable.....put another way, it wasn't a suicide. To not include him simply because he wasn't jumping with a conventional parachute is a bit short-sighted as who knows what jumpers will be wearing and landing in the next few decades; bear in mind the current desire to jump and land a wingsuit could lead us to the first non parachute BASE wingsuit fatality. If this were to happen would the person in question not make the list just because they weren't intending to deploy a ram air canopy to land.??? Talk about a can of worms ian Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FIREFLYR 0 #67 March 28, 2005 After following this thread for a few days and changing my mind back and fourth I finally got to the reason I vote ,NO. Making the decision to step off a fixed object is a hell of a thing to do, I struggle with the idea almost every time I'm on an object, sometimes I climb down. Often I'm all for doing a jump but once I get up there well...it's a lot harder to step off than I thought it would be. Stranding yourself on an object is no guarantee you would jump. Having never made a BASE jump who is to say he would have stepped off? Ken died attempting to land a parachute on the arch after a skydive, he never got to the point where he would make a BASE jump to the ground below. ~J"One flew East,and one flew West..............one flew over the cuckoo's nest" "There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggersam 0 #68 March 28, 2005 IMHO, I think its reasonable to put him at the bottom. I think the situation is perhaps comparable to Jurgen's death in that he had no intention of exiting at that moment. Mark Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SwampThing 0 #69 March 29, 2005 Yes! It was 25 years ago, he most likely didn't know it was illegal to do an illegal BASE jump starting from an airplane! The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!" The Optimist says: "Sure it can!" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tyrion 0 #70 March 29, 2005 I'm an outsider at the moment (not for long tho!), but here's my take. I vote No. Ken died trying to get to the exit point, not doing the jump. That may seem harsh but i think it's right. I think it would be a better idea to put him and the jetski guy in a 3rd section, "B.A.S.E. Related Fatalities". (or something similiar) Cheers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base695 0 #71 March 29, 2005 I vote yes...he died doing a bad-ass attempted base jump. In fact I see more legitamacy in this as a bona fide base jump (he really didnt know what the hell was gonna happen but he rolled the dice anyway) compared to the thousands of 1 second delays from huge bridges with open landing areas that happen every year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Faber 0 #72 March 29, 2005 if you didnt take my statement as a vote i just say it here: NO Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Faber 0 #73 March 29, 2005 QuoteIn fact I see more legitamacy in this as a bona fide base jump (he really didnt know what the hell was gonna happen but he rolled the dice anyway) compared to the thousands of 1 second delays from huge bridges with open landing areas that happen every year. so the more balls or use of stupidety should guide to be on the list? i dont second. a 1 sec delay off an high S still is a BASE,that the person choose to play safe is up to him or her... He made a jump from an airplane,misjugded his landingarea and felt to his death. to me thats a skydiveincedent... or do i get on the topsection if i die driving to my object? No dying while DOING a BASEjump makes it to the toplist,If a person who made 1 BASEjump die whith other than á BASEjump then he makes it to the bottom. He did neither... he jumped off a airplane and died from that action.That he wanted to jump from his LZ is plans in the future which never happened.therefore he were a skydiver who died skydiving. Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TVPB 0 #74 March 29, 2005 He does NOT belong on the first list. Assuming all the info is correct, when he came off the Arch, he had no intention of jumping at that point in time. Refer to his intent and all the anecdotal evidence presented on this thread. He intended to land, cut the main canopy away, pack it, throw it down, and then jump off. He did not consciously or intentionally exit from the Arch, wind and the drag induced by his main canopy forced him off. If a gust of wind blows me off an exit point whilst I am looking over the edge, I am not going to log that as a BASE jump. He only attempted to deploy his reserve because he saw no other option to save his life at the time. People who die in an aircraft on take off or on the way to altitude DO NOT DIE skydiving, no matter what they intended to do later. They died whilst in transit to their destination. Skydiving is the freefall component of a parachute descent. The climb to height is neither freefall nor a parachute descent. Alcoholics who die in a car accident whilst on the way to a bar DO NOT DIE from drunk driving (unless they were actually drunk at the time). A mountain climber flying to The Himalayas who gets killed when his plane crashes did not die Mountaineering - even if this was his intent. He did not die mountaineering if he fell over at BASE camp and fatally injured himself. In the end, Ken sounds like a nice bloke and deserves to be remembered one way or another. To those that knew and loved him, my condolences. I sat underneath The Arch at the same location in 2003 thinking the same things. St Louis is a nice place. The people at Quantum Leap are great too. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites littlestranger 0 #75 March 29, 2005 QuoteSkydiving is the freefall component of a parachute descent. So, using your logic, a hop-n-pop is not a skydive, and neither is a static line jump...but a cliff jump with a 5 second delay is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 0
base695 0 #71 March 29, 2005 I vote yes...he died doing a bad-ass attempted base jump. In fact I see more legitamacy in this as a bona fide base jump (he really didnt know what the hell was gonna happen but he rolled the dice anyway) compared to the thousands of 1 second delays from huge bridges with open landing areas that happen every year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #72 March 29, 2005 if you didnt take my statement as a vote i just say it here: NO Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #73 March 29, 2005 QuoteIn fact I see more legitamacy in this as a bona fide base jump (he really didnt know what the hell was gonna happen but he rolled the dice anyway) compared to the thousands of 1 second delays from huge bridges with open landing areas that happen every year. so the more balls or use of stupidety should guide to be on the list? i dont second. a 1 sec delay off an high S still is a BASE,that the person choose to play safe is up to him or her... He made a jump from an airplane,misjugded his landingarea and felt to his death. to me thats a skydiveincedent... or do i get on the topsection if i die driving to my object? No dying while DOING a BASEjump makes it to the toplist,If a person who made 1 BASEjump die whith other than á BASEjump then he makes it to the bottom. He did neither... he jumped off a airplane and died from that action.That he wanted to jump from his LZ is plans in the future which never happened.therefore he were a skydiver who died skydiving. Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TVPB 0 #74 March 29, 2005 He does NOT belong on the first list. Assuming all the info is correct, when he came off the Arch, he had no intention of jumping at that point in time. Refer to his intent and all the anecdotal evidence presented on this thread. He intended to land, cut the main canopy away, pack it, throw it down, and then jump off. He did not consciously or intentionally exit from the Arch, wind and the drag induced by his main canopy forced him off. If a gust of wind blows me off an exit point whilst I am looking over the edge, I am not going to log that as a BASE jump. He only attempted to deploy his reserve because he saw no other option to save his life at the time. People who die in an aircraft on take off or on the way to altitude DO NOT DIE skydiving, no matter what they intended to do later. They died whilst in transit to their destination. Skydiving is the freefall component of a parachute descent. The climb to height is neither freefall nor a parachute descent. Alcoholics who die in a car accident whilst on the way to a bar DO NOT DIE from drunk driving (unless they were actually drunk at the time). A mountain climber flying to The Himalayas who gets killed when his plane crashes did not die Mountaineering - even if this was his intent. He did not die mountaineering if he fell over at BASE camp and fatally injured himself. In the end, Ken sounds like a nice bloke and deserves to be remembered one way or another. To those that knew and loved him, my condolences. I sat underneath The Arch at the same location in 2003 thinking the same things. St Louis is a nice place. The people at Quantum Leap are great too. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
littlestranger 0 #75 March 29, 2005 QuoteSkydiving is the freefall component of a parachute descent. So, using your logic, a hop-n-pop is not a skydive, and neither is a static line jump...but a cliff jump with a 5 second delay is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
