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jonathan_k

Cliff strike video

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Thanks for posting that, it looks like you could have gone right or left to me. [:/]

Did you also loop back through your risers too ?

-- Hope you don't die. --

I'm fucking winning

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Dwain W. once commented about doing super low freefalls. He wouldn't unstow his toggles for landing since he would get an opening surge that could cause a problem.[ reply]

Or you can pop your brakes and instantly continue into half brakes (basically using up the line that has been released), then sink it in and flare from half brakes. Resulting in minimal surge and a flare. Common when free falling the sub 200" "S" that was talked about earlier in this thread.

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Or you can pop your brakes and instantly continue into half brakes (basically using up the line that has been released), then sink it in and flare from half brakes. Resulting in minimal surge and a flare. Common when free falling the sub 200" "S" that was talked about earlier in this thread.



It's probably better to pop the toggles to a point well past half brakes. From deep brakes to half brakes will still cause a surge. You ought to be bringing the toggles to the same point as the brakes held them (i.e. to deep brakes), to avoid the surging (into the ground, object, etc). Then let up slowly and flare from where ever the toggles are when you get to the ground.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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It's probably better to pop the toggles to a point well past half brakes. From deep brakes to half brakes will still cause a surge. You ought to be bringing the toggles to the same point as the brakes held them (i.e. to deep brakes), to avoid the surging (into the ground, object, etc). Then let up slowly and flare from where ever the toggles are when you get to the ground.



That's the exact method Dwain explained to me when we talked about it.

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Bit too wet for you today ehh Faber ???


i hates UK weater>:( but hey it looks good for the weekend:P

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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When doing low FF’s and PCA’s I always use a slightly shallower brake setting. This enables the canopy to open flying instantly and minimises any surging when the brakes are blown. It also results in a better flare on rear risers if necessary. The setting I use is not so shallow it results in dangerous amounts of speed on opening, just shallow enough. Jason F did a large number of PCA’s from a 140ft tower playing around with brake settings and this was what he found worked best for him.

In regards to the general toggles vs. risers debate, it’s important to consider what brake setting you are using. When brakes are stowed at the deeper end of the spectrum a canopy will open with minimal forward speed however noticeably more height will be lost with riser turns. If a slightly shallower setting is used the response to riser input will be better however speed on opening will be a little more resulting in slightly less time to react.

Liv

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To simplify:

Toggle turns use more forward space.


Not true.
Tom A, if thats what you believe then youre doing it wrong.
Meaning you dont have adequate skill and techniques to be most effective with your toggles.
It is also possible you dont have your toggles set up and prepared correctly.





I wrote an article on the subject of Risers or Toggles hoping to shed some light on this subject. The article can be found in the Info Library section of my website.
Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:[email protected]

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from jonathans account:
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...got on toggles straight away to turn right, couldn't feel my canopy turning after a couple of seconds and by that time had been rag-dolled around to the left and that looked like the better option, so i tried to turn left but was pretty much on the cliff and ended up flaring straight at it.....


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Yeah, i went for toggles. That's what i was taught and felt comfortable with. I also think this has to do with the learning environment in Oz (others might not agree), where your first x number of jumps are sub-200ft PCA's, i had developed a riser response while skydiving but forgot about that on my first jumps as you've gotta be on toggles pretty quickly to land.

Saying that, i will definitely go for risers in the future. You can see in the video that i had a fair bit of horizontal distance to use, which i ate up by not responding appropriately (turning left first). I think if i left the brakes stowed and went for risers i would have had enough horizontal distance for the second response.



Jonathan,
Glad youre ok.
It looked and sounded to me like you got your hands in the toggles fairly quick and had about 3 seconds between you and the cliff. More than enough time to turn the canopy with the toggles.

What you need to figure out is why you could not turn the canopy with the toggles. The first 4 possibilities that come to mind:
1. Did you make sure to release the brake setting on both sides?
2. Did you put the other toggle up to a full flight position while pulling the toggle of the side you wanted to turn to all the way down?
3. Were your toggle settings dialed-in for a slider down/off (LRM) jump?
4. Were you using an effective technique of steering the canopy with the toggles while using the LRM (line release mod)?


You may find the Risers or Toggles article I mention in my previous post interesting.


Hope this helps
Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:[email protected]

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Johnny,

I found it interesting that in your article you cite Dwain as an authority supporting your position, based on a conversation you had with him in 1999.

On November 8th, 2001, Dwain posted (in his own words) the following post on BLiNC with the heading "Avoiding Object Strike (long vers)":

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OK, this has saved my ass on about 4 occurrences with Mojo's:

180 offheading - flying at wall - very close to impact. No time to turn away. Hard input on both rear risers. Canopy stalls backwards. Let up on left rear riser (while still pulling down on right). Canopy barely turns - cells are barely pressurized and there are waves going through the canopy. Reach across with left hand and pull down on front right riser (while still pulling down on right rear riser). This forces air into the cells - canopy instantly response and spins on the spot. Immediately let up on riser input and release brakes to drive away from the wall.

My importance list for avoiding a wall strike:

1. 180’s happen to all of us eventually. Do every thing you can to minimize the occurrence but resign yourself to the fact that they will happen. (Note: see the definition of Murphy’s Law).

2. Avoid smacking the wall at ALL costs.
Get the canopy to open with absolute MINIMAL forward speed. Forget all that sh*t about needing forward speed to get the canopy to respond to riser input. There is zero point to having a responsive canopy if you don't have the time to turn it away. Also the faster the forward speed of your canopy on deployment the harder you will hit the wall and the more bones will snap.
SLOWER forward speed is BETTER in 99% of serious offheadings close to the wall. Anyone who tells you otherwise has not had to deal with a bona fida 180, half line twists on a go-n-throw from a vertical wall. Factory installed brake settings on Mojo's are dangerous, dangerous, dangerous - even for the fastest BASE jumper in the world. Yeah - they work great for rear riser input on a 135 offheading, but turn it into a 160-180 offheading and the wall comes at you like a freight train. (Note: Adam does strongly recommend customizing your brake settings as the factory settings are extremely conservative. This is more of an issue with Mojo's than with FOX's due to the steep angle of attack on the Mojo).

3. Turn the canopy away from the wall.
In dealing with point #2 you have installed customized brake settings on your canopy (but not so deep that you risk a stall). Now because the canopy is going so slow you suddenly have response issues to rear riser input. Basically the thing won't want to turn and will probably stall if you pull down too hard on a rear riser.
The answer to this is not: make the canopy fly faster forward (read point #2 again). The answer is do something else to make the canopy turn away. Some people say "toggles". Well toggles are great (and my personal preference) if you aren't really close to the wall and flying directly at it. There are situations (eg. go-n-throw from vertical wall, bona fida 180 with half a line twist) where you do not have time to use toggles (I am NOT talking about the extra time to grab the toggles, I am talking about the response lag between releasing the brakes, pulling down on the toggle and the canopy actually responding). Also you may be so close to the wall that as you are turning away the end cell will drag on the wall and swing you back in. (I have seen this type of wall strike many times - and subsequently dealt many times with the resulting helicopter rescue, police, media, blah blah blah). If you are about to smack a wall nose on, the only thing to do is to back the canopy away far enough so that when you turn it, the end cell won't clip the wall. Flying the canopy backwards is the only option here (unless you are so low that you will pound into a ledge or the ground as you turn - in that case you just have to sink the canopy straight down and PLF - good luck).
In order to turn the canopy away the combination of both front and rear riser (with the brakes set) works really well. The canopy response almost instantly and just spins on the spot. Front riser input alone is a BAD idea as it makes the canopy dive forward and turn in an arc.

Note: In my experiences with the Vtec (and limited experience with the Blackjack) you usually don't need the front riser input as the vents keep the cells pressurized in almost zero forward speed and the canopy response great to rear riser input alone.

When to go for toggles and when to go for risers?
Basically here is my personal rule for that: If I open and I am flying at a wall and my body starts tensing up for immanent impact then I go for risers, otherwise I tend to go for toggles.
“Oh sh*t, whimper" on opening = risers.
"Uh Oh, I'm looking at wall" = toggles.

4. You aren’t good enough with the technology you are using to always avoid object strike.
With the current technology on the market NOBODY is good enough to avoid a wall strike every time. I have dealt with bad 180's close to the wall (sometimes with serious line twists) on many occasions (actually the number of times I have had 180's is downright embarrassing). I have never had my canopy touch the wall yet (I've pushed of the wall with my feet twice), but I am NOT stupid enough to think that I am good enough to deal with it every time.
Object strike is the number one incident that injuries highly experienced BASE jumpers when they haven't made a gross error of judgment. By plugging out thousands of BASE jumps we are playing a numbers game (if you jump vertical walls slider down). Statistics say that eventually you will hit the wall (Slim hit the wall three times in 1270 BASE jumps. Jump #1270 was the one that really f####d him up (but he's healing well and should be jumping next year). He probably has done the most slider down canopy deployments of anyone in the world and he is ULTRA FAST in dealing with offheadings). As the technology we are using advances (such as bottom skin vents, big grab toggles, vented pilot chutes) the odds are increased in our favor. All we can hope is that the technology increases at a faster rate than the numbers game we are playing.

Hope this helps.



I think the bottom line statement is probably this:
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When to go for toggles and when to go for risers?
Basically here is my personal rule for that: If I open and I am flying at a wall and my body starts tensing up for imminent impact then I go for risers, otherwise I tend to go for toggles.
(emphasis added)



I am curious how you reconcile this conflict between what you said his position was, and what he stated as his position.

Can you clarify?

Thanks!
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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General statement to all readers:
Because it takes time and training to gain the proper skill to be using toggles as Plan A, I am not recommending toggles over risers or visa versa. Even though I am a toggle guy, I still think using risers is a suitable method of dealing with an off-heading opening. I dont really go for the whole Toggles VS Risers debate. Thats why I called my article Risers or Toggles. It is what it is.
I am pro-toggles and pro-risers.....get the job done!!!
Having said that, I do have a personal preference, which I have expressed clearly with reasons and cautions.


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I am curious how you reconcile this conflict between what you said his position was, and what he stated as his position.
Can you clarify?


Sure. No problem.

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Johnny,

I found it interesting that in your article you cite Dwain as an authority supporting your position, based on a conversation you had with him in 1999.


I didnt cite Dwain as an authority supporting my position. I cited him as a BASE jumper agreeing that he should have gone for his toggles. Im pretty sure he felt that way because he almost got seriously injured or killed from the sink caused by using the risers.


I said this in this thread a while back (Oct 2003):
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Dwain and I are on the same page, like we were on most things we discussed. I can think of a time when we disagreed on an issue. It was at the last Petronas event, concerning a jumper who spiraled onto the roof of the mall. After watching the video one time, I said it looked like he had a tension knot. Both Dwain and Slim adamantly disagreed with me. They thought because the slider had come down, it could not be a tension knot. I listen to their response, and quickly determined that a tension knot can occur within a single risers line set. After explaining this to them, they still disagreed. Later that day, a zoomed in photograph, taken from another building, showed without a doubt, that it was indeed what I said it was (a tension knot).



Tom, I also said this to you in that same thread:
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This reminds me of something you said at Petronas last December. You were saying that a line over will not make your canopy spiral. I over heard this and thought for the safety of you and others, I should inquire. I asked you why you would think that. You said because you had a line over and it did not spiral. I told you then, Every line over has a different configuration. I hope you believe that.


I really do hope you understand the reality of what I was telling you there.


In Dwains post that you quoted, I agree with much of what he is saying, but not everything.
For example: I agree that this part describes an excellent technique if you are using the risers.
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180 offheading - flying at wall - very close to impact. No time to turn away. Hard input on both rear risers. Canopy stalls backwards. Let up on left rear riser (while still pulling down on right). Canopy barely turns - cells are barely pressurized and there are waves going through the canopy. Reach across with left hand and pull down on front right riser (while still pulling down on right rear riser). This forces air into the cells - canopy instantly response and spins on the spot. Immediately let up on riser input and release brakes to drive away from the wall.


What I would do in a similar situation is this:
I would go for my toggles and pull them all the way down immediately. This will stop the canopy. From there I can do a snap turn by letting one of the toggles all the way up or I can fly backwards first if I feel I need to and do the snap turn at any time I choose. You can stop and fly backwards just as effectively with the toggles as you can with the risers. By using the toggles you can snap turn on a dime better than you can with risers (this is a main reason I am a toggle guy), plus you dont have to change grips like you would during the riser maneuver. Using the risers will cause you to sink drastically. On the other hand, using the toggles will result in minimal altitude loss (this is another main reason I am a toggle guy).


I also agree with this statement of his:
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SLOWER forward speed is BETTER in 99% of serious offheadings close to the wall. Anyone who tells you otherwise has not had to deal with a bona fida 180, half line twists on a go-n-throw from a vertical wall.


I have been in a similar to worse situation.
I used the toggles to save myself. If I had used the risers, I would have had an object strike.


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Some people say "toggles". Well toggles are great (and my personal preference) if you aren't really close to the wall and flying directly at it.


I prefer to have my toggles in all situations (except when I have to reach above line-twist).


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There are situations (eg. go-n-throw from vertical wall, bona fida 180 with half a line twist) where you do not have time to use toggles (I am NOT talking about the extra time to grab the toggles, I am talking about the response lag between releasing the brakes, pulling down on the toggle and the canopy actually responding).


I disagree with this statement of Dwains. By using practiced technique, I can make the canopy respond considerably faster (time and distance) by using the toggles.


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Also you may be so close to the wall that as you are turning away the end cell will drag on the wall and swing you back in.

If you are about to smack a wall nose on, the only thing to do is to back the canopy away far enough so that when you turn it, the end cell won't clip the wall. Flying the canopy backwards is the only option here (unless you are so low that you will pound into a ledge or the ground as you turn - in that case you just have to sink the canopy straight down and PLF - good luck).


I agree, but I want to mention again that you can back out of such a situation by using the toggles like I described above.

Also, (a quote from my article):
>>Keep in mind, when you are flying backwards, you are in a complete stall.  That is why I think flying backwards to get out of a tight spot on a low object is a risky endeavor.  If it came down to having to ride the ball to the ground, I would MUCH rather do that on toggles.<<


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When to go for toggles and when to go for risers?
Basically here is my personal rule for that: If I open and I am flying at a wall and my body starts tensing up for immanent impact then I go for risers, otherwise I tend to go for toggles.
“Oh sh*t, whimper" on opening = risers.
"Uh Oh, I'm looking at wall" = toggles.


If you are super fast on the toggles, through muscle memory you will have your hands going in the toggles as you are realizing your situation. There is no deciding what should I go for, you are already there (or nearly there).
That way when you need to take action, it can be instant.


If you noticed, Dwain mentions a couple things to the effect that a less than ideal brake setting -or- an ideal brake setting, can cause inadequate results while using the risers. If you are using the toggles, then once you pull the steering lines down past the brake setting point, the brake setting that was, is no longer an issue.
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Yeah - they(conservative brake settings) work great for rear riser input on a 135 offheading, but turn it into a 160-180 offheading and the wall comes at you like a freight train.

In dealing with point #2 you have installed customized brake settings on your canopy (but not so deep that you risk a stall). Now because the canopy is going so slow you suddenly have response issues to rear riser input. Basically the thing won't want to turn and will probably stall if you pull down too hard on a rear riser.





In this context, if you would like to read my thoughts on the subject of risers or toggles, it is here.

Hope this helps.
Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:[email protected]

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Hey Tom,
What I'd really like to see are these techniques in action. (Risers and Toggles) Having someone shoot video from the top, of both techniques with the same canopy. If I lived closer to the bridge I would do it myself. I used to be a toggle grabber but I had a object strike trying to avoid a underhung antenna in zero wind using toggles. (Not using the technique Johnny has explained) Now I'm training myself to go for risers.
"When it comes to BASE, I'll never give advice, only my opinion"

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What I'd really like to see are these techniques in action. (Risers and Toggles) Having someone shoot video from the top, of both techniques with the same canopy. If I lived closer to the bridge I would do it myself.



Another possibility is to do both techniques, as well as Dwain's front/rear riser turn, with a Pro-Trac or Neptune and then compare the graphs. I'd think you could get some interesting data on both vertical altitude loss and forward speed.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

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set up a camera on the edge of a bridge facing straight down. jump off facing the bridge.. try the 2 methods of turning as soon as canopy opens. see which method puts you more under the bridge.. you wont be able to get opening locations the same but you should be able to see the difference on camera. maybe another person filming from the ground to get the canopy sink aswell. now all you would need is someone who lives close to a nice height bridge =)

;)

Life is Great. Even Greater what we do with it.

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set up a camera on the edge of a bridge facing straight down. jump off facing the bridge.. try the 2 methods of turning as soon as canopy opens. see which method puts you more under the bridge..



I've done this dozens of times. I've also made many of my students do it. Since it's already been done, I doubt that it's going to provide any acceptable evidence for this discussion.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Another possibility is to do both techniques, as well as Dwain's front/rear riser turn


hmm i never considdered that...

need to be practiced through...

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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