BASE, low skydives, and knowledge dissemination

[JJEXP 0]

Getting a little ahead of one's self maybe? 68 skydives and you're about to start base? 68 jumps and you're flying a 1.4 loaded wing? Me thinks this isnt a good idea...

edit for thread title ~TA

[grundleson 0]

i am not going to jump the base rig of anything stationary, rather, i am going to take my first base rig jump from a 3500 ft ultralight flight for a few rides and get my pack job down. then at that i am going to jump off a paraglider in open space with nothing to strike and learn the basics of packing a BASE rig. before i decide to make a REAL BASE jump.

i was told the hardest part is the pack job, the jump is the easy part.

Dont die!

[KevinMcGuire 0]

If your jumping from an ultralight you definitely want pins.

[GaryP 0]

Quote

Getting a little ahead of one's self maybe? 68 skydives and you're about to start base?...

I beleive in palliative information - that is that the guy has stated that he "is buying his first BASE rig" so whilst I agree that 68 jumps is not the std requirement, the choice is whether or not to supply him with information. If we don't - he makes his choice with less information available to him than if we do give him information. Whatever we chose - he has made his choice to buy his rig and I think that information should be disseminated to him regardless. This has always been my stand. I agree that whilst the norm for 150-200 skydives is a good GENERAL standard to have it 'aint gospel - I've seen ppl with 50 jumps who are more "switched-on" than some with 500. I don't think info should be conditionary.

He has made his choice - we either help him or we don't. My signature was actually take from a saying that "INFORMATION is birthright to any individual who seeks it".

As a footnote I must say that I've not seen any BASE fatalities attributed soley to the jumper having under 150 skydives. When I started BASE there was no 150jump pre-requisite - I had about 50 jumps before 1st BASE and so did all my friends. They are all still alive today.

(BTW - go for the pin rig)

g.

"Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it"

.

[GaryP 0]

Quote

They are all still alive today.

Sorry, I'm mistaken - they are NOT all still alive today but their deaths were'nt attributed to their low jump#'s when starting.

g.

"Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it"

.

[DexterBase 0]

The following post comes from direct personal experience and may save your life if you pay attention and do a little honest soul searching.

DO-MORE-SKYDIVES

I speak from experience. Getting into BASE jumping before you know how to fly a parachute will hurt you. WILL hurt you... Will hurt you.... May kill you.

Landing a parachute in a big open field 70 times does not mean you know how to fly a parachute well enough to start BASE jumping.

I tried it. I almost didn't make it to sit here and type this.

Do more skydives and don't buy a BASE rig now. Don't give in to this temptation because it will lead to a bigger one.

Buy a BASE canopy if you're serious about getting into BASE in the near future. Don't buy a BASE container. Pack the canopy in a skydiving rig and jump the hell out of it. Jump it all summer. Skydive your ass off and by the end of summer you'll probably have enough jumps to take a course and find a mentor.

Set a goal in skydiving. Promise you won't order your new container until you reach this goal. Reward yourself for preparing thoroughly by getting a shiny new BASE container. (((cough....from Asylum...cough...cough...)))

If you buy a complete BASE rig now and start jumping it out of an ultralight, I promise you, the temptation will be too great and you're going to end up BASE jumping before you're ready.

You think you're different or immune to the draw of it. You don't think you'll hear the siren song of a packed BASE rig on a windless night.

Until you've been bored and looked over on the floor to see a packed BASE rig... you'll never know what I'm talking about.

Edit: If you follow this advice, you will be BASE jumping by fall. Is that too long to wait?

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

If you but a complete BASE rig now, , I promise you, the temptation will be too great and you're going to end up BASE jumping before you're ready.

You think you're different or immune to the draw of it. You don't think you'll hear the siren song of a packed BASE rig on a windless night.

I'll second this, based on very recent experience. The lure is huge, especially once the confidence in your packjob increases, and even more so once you have made jumps at forgiving sites (the legal span or from a paraglider).

Remember, a base jump isn't hard until shit hits the fan. Then it can suddenly become the most difficult thing you'll ever deal with.

I won't comment on your jump numbers, especially considering I started base early too. I would highly recommend buying a canopy before buying the container though. It's what I did, and the recent skydives with my base canopy have been heaps of fun.

First of all doing accuracy with a seven-cell is a whole new game and it's very enjoyable. Secondly, start packing yourself minor malfunctions (line-twists, toggle-releases, use the LRM with a toggle release, etc.) after discussing it with experienced skydivers you trust. This will make your skydives more exciting, in case you're bored already.

Two cents,

Jaap

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

As a footnote I must say that I've not seen any BASE fatalities attributed soley to the jumper having under 150 skydives.

There's more to base accidents than the fatalities. There's losing limps, wheelchairs, extended hospital stays, casts, and a multitude of 'minor' inconveniences. Unfortunately we rarely hear about those accidents, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a stronger correlation between the 'minor' incidents and jump-numbers. It's often a tricky landing that causes these accidents.

This is just my two cents. I'm not even following my own advice, so I'd do better to shut up. In fact, I'm distracting from the original discussion, so maybe the moderator should split this thread. Then again, we've seen this topic a million times before.

On the subject of velcro vs pin. I have no opinion. It's more important to know the limitations and contexts of either system. There's never a straight and simple answer in base. It's too context-sensitive. Just get both .

Cheers,

Jaap

[monkey1031 0]

Buy the canopy.
Not the rig.
Jump the canopy enough times from an airplane, so many times, you need to replace for fear of a reserve ride.
Then buy the rig and a new canopy.
Then... do all that other stuff (ultralight/paraglider) and then...

pm one of us... we'll meet you in french fry land.

this is coming from someone who had 73 skydives before my first BASE jump.... I too am lucky to be here...

-smd7

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

If your jumping from an ultralight you definitely want pins.

What Kevin said.

And I'm a "velcro for beginners guy."

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[GaryP 0]

agreed to all the advice and that there's definitly more to BASE consequences than fatalities - there's plenty of time to get into BASE. I can't stress enough how important it is to have canopy input become nothing short of 2nd nature - instinct that requires no thought. Most cliffs have been there for many thousand years and there for many thousand more. There will always be new bridges and bldg to access so there's no need to rush into BASE and it'd be foolish to enter into it without the prerequisite of instincive canopy control and much time studying BASE.

I was tempted with the quote that my old BASE friends are still around but in actual fact - most old skool in Oz stopped jumping - attributing to their longevity.

My point that I do press is that information shouldn't be conditional - that it should be given to WHOEVER seeks it. When Joe Shaw - (BASE fatality #27 - love ya mate) died it wasn't his inexperience in skydiving that killed him it was the DAMN CODE OF SECRECY AND NON_DISSEMINATION OF INFORMATION that was the practice of the time that contributed to his death. Ever since he went in I was adamant that the "code" should and would change and I would do whatever possible to change the code of secrecy that was the norm of the time. That's why whenever I sense that info is being held from someone on condition that I speak up.

g.

"Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it"

.

[DexterBase 0]

We're not keeping anything from him. We have plenty of time to talk with him about gear choices so I don't think it does any damage to pause for a little advice. He is, after all, here for advice right? A lot of times good advice on a topic comes along while you're looking for information on a different subject.

I won't simply tell him to do a search and he'll come up with numerous threads discussing this very topic. I don't like it when I see people do that to others asking for advice. The information they find may be dated and better information may be posted in a fresh conversation.

I think that someone who posts this particular question here may not have done a whole lot of internet research on this topic. If not, then they might not know it's not generally a great idea to get into BASE jumping with that amount of experience. I don't find it too difficult to make that connection do you?

Now that we've warned him about the dangers of getting into BASE jumping at low jump numbers, we can continue on with a technical discussion on what type of rig a beginner BASE jumper should be looking for.

Everyone agree?

[GaryP 0]

With all that said - in keeping with your quesion and my opinion:

All systems (Velcro - single & dual pin) have their strengths and weaknesses. For wingsuit and acrobatics and long delays I'd have to reccomend pin rigs. For ultra low I have to say the single pin Prism (for reasons of simplicity of pack-opening) but for most BASE of the 0-7sec range then all systems are fine.

It's the human that's the variable in the equation.

Each system has a particular way to pack, maintain and operate it and as long as you are in keeping with what's required then either will serve you well. Just know the limitations with packing, mainainence and execution and stay within those confines and you'll be fine with whatever choice. Work outside the performance envelope of your choice and you'll be bitten.

Maybe know your application (wingsuit, high, low etc.) and that would help you with your choice.

g.

"Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it"

.

[GaryP 0]

Dexterbase - agreed - fair point - pause - reflect - breath.

My agenda getting ahead of my keystrokes.

Thx.

g.

"Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it"

.

[cornishe 0]

These guys are very knowledgable in what they are saying but... I've jumped my velcro rig from airplanes with no problems. Change out your velcro when it needs it. If someone wants to discuss whether thats a good idea or not, start a new thread.

And listen to Dexter. He put some really good stuff in the thread for you.

-a

Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

[TomAiello 25]

I separated this from the "Velcro or 2 pin" thread, as it's a different discussion.

I'll now go back and try to reinsert the parts that are discussing the orginal topic.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[skreamer 1]

Quote

You don't think you'll hear the siren song of a packed BASE rig on a windless night.

For me it is like having a little crack dealer trapped inside my stash bag whispering 'Come get some, you know you want it...'.

[TVPB 0]

Well said Dexter.

It is a natural process. If you are too impatient to spend an extra 12 months to get the right jump numbers AND right jump experiences, invariably you will be too eager to get into low pulls, and aerobatics, and wingsuits and . . . . . . . . .

Cut corners and the holes in the cheese may/will line up.

The debate over jump numbers could be simplified as follows:
1 - if we do not know a persons skill or experience level, we need to use a set of criteria to ascertain their "readiness" to enter the sport. This is where jump numbers come into it. It is a guide, it is a screening process, it is like speed limits. Total freedom and anarchy WILL lead to more time spent consoling our loved ones and less time spent learning about the next skill in our sport.
2 - if we know a person well, and they have a balance of transferable skills, experiences, and appropriate psychology, then we may use those criteria instead of jump numbers.
3 - if we are to act as instructors &/or guides, we must be able to realistically assess our own skill and deficiencies. If you believe you are more capable and skiled than you really are, your prospective student has no chance, regardless of their jump numbers.

There are several things that are a given:
- you cannot apply exactly the same criteria and process to each individual and expect the same outcome. We are all different. We all have variable strengths and weaknesses. Our actions and the result will be different to other people. But when you look at the population as a whole, you have to set criteria somewhere below average. This is called risk management. If you set the critiera at the level of the worlds best, there WILL be unfavourable outcomes. Average people cannot perform at worlds best all the time (all other things being equal). Otherwise, they would be worlds best. But you certainly can improve with the right training and preparation.
- can you BASE jump without any prior parachuting experience? Well, you can choose to do ANYTHING without prior experience. Would you be wise to do so? Definitely NOT. People who argue against parachuting/skydiving are unable to recognise an obvious fact. YOU CAN DEVELOP TRANSFERABLE SKILLS THAT CAN BE APPLIED IN BASE JUMPING. If you think these skills can't be learned, what hope do you have of teaching any skills in BASE jumping? What hope do you have of recognising areas where a person can improve on?
- do elite champion athletes just turn up to competition? NO? They spend a lot of time preparing. And they start from the basics and develop their skills in a sequential manner. Similarly, there are very few people in the world who are capable of safely becoming world class in minimum time.
- the more variables you introduce to any equation, the greater the likelihood that you will be unable to calculate the appropriate or favoured result. This is especially true if you have had limited or no exposure to the variables. 1+1=2 but pi*x^3/cof*(a_b^2)/45.67 is a little more complex. Throw in some time constraints and it becomes harder still. So why not expose yourself to one variable at a time. Preferably master it. But as a minimum get to know it before you introduce the next variable. In laymans terms, learn one skill at a time, minimise the number of new variables introduced on a jump. Develop your skills in a logical / sequential manner. Don't winguit until you can do stable tracking exits and you can recover from unstable positions.

p.s.. There are a number of people whose jump numbers / experience / currency were one factor (of several) in their deaths. JS, TP, DT, TY, etc, etc, etc. . . . . Inexperienced outdoor adventurer psychology is another common factor. If you don't know what I mean by this, feel free to ask.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

Inexperienced outdoor adventurer psychology is another common factor. If you don't know what I mean by this, feel free to ask.

I have an idea what that could mean, but I'd love to hear you explain it anyway. It sounds like you might have an interesting theory here. Maybe start another thread?

Cheers,

Jaap

[TVPB 0]

In a nutshell:

If you have been a solo rock climber or hanglider pilot, or mountaineer or . . . . . . . . and you have a mindset that is capable of assessing risk and an attitude that allows you to deal with risk in a realistic manner, you are many steps ahead of someone who has played play station all their lives, and saw BASE on TV and wants to try advanced BASE manouvres early in their jump career.

You are ahead because you already have a "reflex" that detects and deals with risk, you have possibly experienced danger and dealt with it (for prolonged periods in climbing), you have probably had a close call or seen others in trouble which has taught you that people are mortal beings. You probably know what your strengths and weaknesses are.

Add to this the fact that many younger people in society have been brought up to believe that everyone else is responsible for their safety, whereas older members of society had to fend for themselves and deal with the consequences of their own actions.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.